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Old
07-11-2013, 08:36 AM
  #1
MainDotC
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Salary Arbitrations

This morning on the Team 1200 Simmer was talking about the Condra situation and he spoke in general about arbitration and how a lot of negative remarks come out of these things. I recall reading a Larry Wigge article in The Sporting News a while back how Mike Milbury really trashed Tommy Salo which lead toward his eventual demise.

My question is will we ever see video of these negotiations? We hear news reports of what goes on during these arbitration hearings so SOMEONE must be a fly on the wall. I've seen youtube videos of depositions - is there any reason the public would not be privy to these hearings as well?

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07-11-2013, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MainDotC View Post
This morning on the Team 1200 Simmer was talking about the Condra situation and he spoke in general about arbitration and how a lot of negative remarks come out of these things. I recall reading a Larry Wigge article in The Sporting News a while back how Mike Milbury really trashed Tommy Salo which lead toward his eventual demise.

My question is will we ever see video of these negotiations? We hear news reports of what goes on during these arbitration hearings so SOMEONE must be a fly on the wall. I've seen youtube videos of depositions - is there any reason the public would not be privy to these hearings as well?
No, I doubt there will be video.

But if possible, it would be preferable to get a deal done before arbitration because it can be tough on the player. Essentially, Bryan Murray has to go in there and convince the arbitrator that Erik Condra is a ****** 4th line hockey player who deserves as little money as he can. To do this, he has to present evidence as to why.

Obviously with Condra present, it can be tough to see people try and down play your contribution to the team, especially when that player is your boss. It would be like your employer talking **** about you to try and lower your salary.

Also, if they can get something done before arbitration it would be wise, considering it could allow a multi year deal. I know there can be 2 year contracts from arbitration, but that might have to be indicated before.

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07-11-2013, 08:56 AM
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Ouch, are they in the same room?

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07-11-2013, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by SelleckStache View Post
Ouch, are they in the same room?
Yes, as fair as I'm concerned it's exactly like a court proceeding.

Of note, I just looked in the CBA and it indicated that Condra can delegate to a representative (presumably his agent). This would probably lighten the blow, but I bet it's a decent negotiation tactic to have the player in the room so it's tougher for the GM to say negative things about the player. Regardless if the player is there, he'll find out if the GM trashed him.

Subject to the limitations set forth in subsection (iii) below, the parties
may present whatever witnesses, affidavits, documents and other relevant
evidence they choose to present at the hearing. The Salary Arbitrator, on
behalf of any party, or on his own behalf, may call witnesses or request
documents or other evidence as he deems necessary to resolve the dispute.
The Salary Arbitrator in his discretion shall be the judge of the relevancy
and materiality of the evidence offered and/or the weight, if any, to attach
to any evidence and shall not be bound by any formal legal rules of
evidence. All evidence shall be presented in the presence of all the
parties,
unless a party is in default, having failed to appear for the hearing,
or has waived his right to be present. Statistical evidence asserted in a
party's affirmative case must be included in such party's brief in order to
be admissible.

Looks like it.

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07-11-2013, 09:00 AM
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I believe it is basically a negotiation but both sides present to the arbitrator. As mentioned it doesn't help the player/team relationship most times and depending on the player it can ruin it. I remember reading in Money Players that Bobby Holik thinks it is a process every player should go through. Arbitration is what shows players that this is a business.

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07-11-2013, 09:07 AM
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Arbitration sounds terrible for team/player relationships.

That said I'm not too concerned about Condra. It sounds bad, but he's a very replaceable player (though useful).

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07-11-2013, 09:08 AM
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A lot of times, a contract is negotiated right before the scheduled hearing out of fear of damaging the relationship.

Murray will still try and get something done.

Arbitration is a last resort.

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07-11-2013, 09:10 AM
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i'm trying to remember the last sen who actually WENT to arb. I dont think we've had one for a couple of years.

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07-11-2013, 09:14 AM
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It should be noted and Sens fans should be reminded that even though there is usually at least 1 Sens player who files for arbitration every year, the Sens almost never actually end up going through the hearing itself. They sign the player ahead of the meeting, like always.

I can't find the exact instance but I'm fairly certain I've looked this up before and I think the last time the Sens actually completed an arbitration hearing with one of their players was with Radek Bonk over a decade ago.

It's in both parties' best interest to avoid the hearing. For the player, they don't want to sit there and hear about how terrible they are. The teams don't like it either because of the uncertainty of the result. It takes the negotiation out of their hands. This is especially true in the new CBA since team aren't even allowed to walk away from an arbitration award unless it's greater than $3.5 million.

Murray is very good at coming to a deal prior to the hearing, whether it ends up being a multi-year extension or just a 1 year band aid deal. Arbitration is a great tool actually because by player's filing, it puts a deadline on contract negotiations and forces both parties to settle on something without dragging it out too long. That's the main reason that players file, they don't actually want the hearing, they just want the team to feel a little pressure to get a deal done.

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07-11-2013, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
i'm trying to remember the last sen who actually WENT to arb. I dont think we've had one for a couple of years.
I thought Daugavins did...

Or did he settle before?

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07-11-2013, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Classless Manked View Post
I thought Daugavins did...

Or did he settle before?
I believe he settled a week before.
Regin also went and settled before.

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07-11-2013, 09:52 AM
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I understand why can say a guy is replaceable..
But, I hate hearing it because a guy like Condra has done everything that's been asked of him and more.

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07-11-2013, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
i'm trying to remember the last sen who actually WENT to arb. I dont think we've had one for a couple of years.
I think the Sens avoided arbitration on pretty much every player who filled for it.

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07-11-2013, 10:08 AM
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I checked on Campoli because i forgotten.

Was going to arb with Ottawa, signed before it got there.

Went to arb with Chicago, they walked away.

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07-11-2013, 10:10 AM
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Poor Chris.


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07-11-2013, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
I checked on Campoli because i forgotten.

Was going to arb with Ottawa, signed before it got there.

Went to arb with Chicago, they walked away.
Emery was about to go to arbitration but they signed him a couple minutes before the hearing or so.

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07-11-2013, 10:16 AM
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so would i be correct in saying murray's never gone all the way to arbitration in ottawa?

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07-11-2013, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
so would i be correct in saying murray's never gone all the way to arbitration in ottawa?
Think so. I don't remember anyone going to arbitration.

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07-11-2013, 10:39 AM
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going back in time...

2012 : Daugavins scheduled for arbitration, avoids it.
2010 : Regin, Campoli scheduled for arbitration, both avoid it.
2008 : Vermette scheduled for arbitration, avoids it (like 15 minutes before his hearing)
2007 : Emery, Kelly, and Schubert scheduled for arbitration, all avoid it.
---------------murray-muckler line------------------
2006 : Schaeffer scheduled for arbitration, avoids it (and is signed to a 4-yr contract we eventually regret)
2005 : Hossa is scheduled for arbitration, avoids it, gets traded promptly.
2004 : Chara is scheduled for arbitration, avoids it, gets a 2-yr contract straight to UFA.


that's all i got. So who was the last sen to actually go to arbitration?

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07-11-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
i'm trying to remember the last sen who actually WENT to arb. I dont think we've had one for a couple of years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DefenseMinister View Post
...I can't find the exact instance but I'm fairly certain I've looked this up before and I think the last time the Sens actually completed an arbitration hearing with one of their players was with Radek Bonk over a decade ago...

I really wish canoe.ca would have archives dating back to 1995. I distinctly recall reading about arbitration filings - which of course I had no idea what that meant at the time - but it would really come in handy. The only thing I could read searching "Bonk arbitration" was this article: http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/NHL...pf-667494.html

Also - I think McEachern was awarded a 1-yr deal at 1 point...something like $3.25 mil?...and his agent said something like "we really like these 1-year deals...it encourages the player to perform even better for the next negotiation". I'm paraphrasing but it was something along those lines.

There was so much going on in the late 90's...I wish I was more cognisant.

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07-11-2013, 10:50 AM
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i think arb. is something that should be used to get a deal done quicker, and kind of force the sides to make a deal faster to avoid arb. if that makes sense. I dont think you want to go into the arb ever, you basically go in there and cut down the player and tell him how hes not near as good as he thinks and then try and prove it with stats ect. but the fact a player goes to arb forces the two parties to get a deal down quicker

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07-11-2013, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danishh View Post
going back in time...

2012 : Daugavins scheduled for arbitration, avoids it.
2010 : Regin, Campoli scheduled for arbitration, both avoid it.
2008 : Vermette scheduled for arbitration, avoids it (like 15 minutes before his hearing)
2007 : Emery, Kelly, and Schubert scheduled for arbitration, all avoid it.
---------------murray-muckler line------------------
2006 : Schaeffer scheduled for arbitration, avoids it (and is signed to a 4-yr contract we eventually regret)
2005 : Hossa is scheduled for arbitration, avoids it, gets traded promptly.
2004 : Chara is scheduled for arbitration, avoids it, gets a 2-yr contract straight to UFA.


that's all i got. So who was the last sen to actually go to arbitration?
It was Bonk in 2002 as mentioned above. Nobody since.

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07-11-2013, 10:53 AM
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If Condra ever reach arbitration Murray only need to use this video and smile.


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07-11-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theo Huxtable View Post
It was Bonk in 2002 as mentioned above. Nobody since.
Hey awesome - I found a few links!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...onk_sens_slam/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Garlic
By Bruce Garrioch, SLAM! Sports

Before Radek Bonk faces an arbitrator Monday, the Senators will make one last effort to sign him.

While the Senators aren't confident they'll be able to get a deal done before arbitrator Ralph Berger hears the Ottawa center's case in Toronto, the club is willing to go to bat with agent Jiri Crha again.

Peter Chiarelli, the Senators' director of legal affairs, who will present the club's case, will likely meet face-to-face with Bonk and Crha tonight to see if a resolution can be reached.

After making $1.75 million last season, the 27-year-old Bonk turned down a two-year, $5.75-million contract from the Senators last month.

Twelve of the 40 players who filed for arbitration have settled. Former Senators winger Andre Roy was scheduled to go first Thursday and signed a one-year, $700,000 deal minutes before.

In Bonk's case, he'll be seeking $3.5 million per season from the Senators, who would prefer a two-year settlement.

Bonk, who had 70 points last season with 25 goals and 45 assists, has taken criticism for his lack of consistency.

"Arbitration is a tough process because you've got to be careful about how hard you attack a player that you may have to count on at some point. That doesn't make it easy at all," said an NHL executive.

"You look at a guy like Radek Bonk and his numbers say he should get what he's looking for, but you've got to wonder if Ottawa can afford to play this kind of game with this guy. There's a chance he could be dealt."

Sources say Muckler has told teams that have called about Bonk -- which may include Phoenix, St. Louis and New Jersey -- that the club is going to wait until the arbitration process is completed to make a decision.

"It's fine to trade Radek Bonk, but you'd better find a guy who is able to replace him," said the executive. "You don't just give guys like that away without getting something in return.

"That's the problem the Senators are facing right now."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...ators_bonk_ap/

Quote:
TORONTO (AP) -- Center Radek Bonk of the Ottawa Senators was awarded a two-year, $6.7-million contract in arbitration Wednesday, nearly doubling his salary from last season.

Bonk, 26, was seeking $3.5 million a year in his hearing on Monday. The new deal will pay him $3.2 million next season and $3.5 million in 2003-04.

The small-budget Senators had reportedly offered Bonk about $5.75 million over two years.

He earned $1.8 million last season when he had a career-high 25 goals and 45 assists.

The Senators and Bonk had somewhat contentious negotiations, and general manager John Muckler reportedly entertained trade offers for Bonk from Phoenix, St. Louis and New Jersey.

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07-11-2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by Bruce Garlic.



Good stuff Main.

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