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Henrik Sedin vs. Jason Spezza

View Poll Results: Who's better?
Canucks fan saying Sedin 73 24.25%
Non-Canucks fan saying Sedin 88 29.24%
Sens fan saying Spezza 63 20.93%
Non-Sens fan saying Spezza 77 25.58%
Voters: 301. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-11-2013, 09:50 PM
  #51
McTankel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Spezza last 4 years: 203 points in 207 games = .98 PPG (very impressive)
Henrik last 4 years : 332 points in 294 games = 1.13 PPG (VERY impressive).

Not a knock on Spezza, but Henrik is a very skilled player
Yep, Sedin for me.

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07-11-2013, 11:43 PM
  #52
Erik Alfredsson
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Originally Posted by Bathcat View Post
Bringing up defensive play as the tiebreaker between Sedin and Spezza made me chuckle.

Neither are great in that respect. They're not counted on at all to provide a defensive game.
Really? Because, I'm pretty sure Spezza kills penalty's.

And by the way, Spezza doesn't have an identical twin next to him all the time, we'll see how good he is with Ryan, because he outscored Henrik with Michalek and Greening.

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07-12-2013, 12:23 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Erik Alfredsson View Post
Really? Because, I'm pretty sure Spezza kills penalty's.

And by the way, Spezza doesn't have an identical twin next to him all the time, we'll see how good he is with Ryan, because he outscored Henrik with Michalek and Greening.
Spezza's line was also exploited defensively that year; 7th most even strength goals against for a center who played more than half the season. Meanwhile Henrik had the 7th best +/-ON/60 in the league that season for the same pool of players. Spezza may have scored 3 more points than Henrik that year, but he was playing pond hockey. Sedin was playing a puck possession game and led the West in scoring for the 2nd time in 3 years. Just because Spezza kills penalties doesn't make him better defensively.

They're very comparable players, you can make an argument for either one. There's no definitive answer here.

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07-12-2013, 12:25 AM
  #54
Kirk Mclean
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I don't see how there can be a case made for Spezza. Hank is arguably the best passer in the league, and has accomplished more and been a better player than Spezza for the last 5 years or so.

I'm actually a fan of the Sens and Spezza is one of my favourite players, but to me this is no contest. The posts citing defensive play as a tie breaker between the two are ridiculous. Neither is a defensive specialist, and defensive play is probably a complete wash.

But I guess most people in the east only have the media's biased opinion of Hank to go on so I guess it's tough to judge when you only watch one of the players.

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Old
07-12-2013, 12:30 AM
  #55
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Sedin, easily, and it even pains me to say it. Spezza's never led the league in scoring and though the sisters have lost a tiny step, they're both still better than Spezza. Not as much as before, but still quite clearly.

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07-12-2013, 12:39 AM
  #56
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The only reason this should be close is Spezza's questionable back.

Points wise, they're reasonably close to eachother, but Spezza has the clear edge on goals, is FAR better at faceoffs, and is much better defensively.

Henrik is the better playmaker (though IMO, he has inflated assist numbers because he plays with Daniel, but that's an argument for another day, and is still a better playmaker than Spezza anyways), and better at staying healthy. Spezza has him beat at pretty much everything else.


I'm not saying Henrik is a bad player: I really like the Sedins. I'm just saying: Spezza > Henrik... but that's like comparing prime rib to a well-cooked porterhouse. Prime Rib is better than a succulent Porterhouse, but they're both delicious.

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Old
07-12-2013, 12:53 AM
  #57
Henrik To Daniel
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It's sickening how terribly underrated the Sedins, in this case Henrik, are. Henrik Sedin is the best pure playmaker in the league. The man lead the league in assists 3 years in a row. Very few players have accomplished that feat. Not even Mario Lemieux. This guy is dominant at his position. What is Spezza dominant at? Being injured? Watching hockey games from the press box?

People say Henrik benefits from playing with a twin brother. Spezza had the benefit of playing with Dany Heatley and Daniel Alfredsson, nothing to sneeze at. I didn't see Spezza win any Hart trophies when he was centering those two. I didn't see Spezza win any Art Ross trophies either.

Where do people get this Spezza is better BS from? Henrik played on the top penalty kill a number of years back and it was ranked #1 in the league (while still putting up PPG numbers) so this argument is flawed. AV built a system around the Sedins to maximize their offensive potential with zone starts. Canucks have the benefit of having a Selke winning #2 to take defensive responsibilities while the Sens after Spezza are very thin at center which forces Spezza to play defensive as well because there are limited options.

The year Spezza beat out Hank in scoring by a paltry 3 points, Henrik lead the West in scoring (and the league in assists).

Jason Spezza is a good player but he's not even in the same stratosphere as Henrik Sedin who along with his brother are guaranteed future Hall of Famers.

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07-12-2013, 12:56 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
The only reason this should be close is Spezza's questionable back.

Points wise, they're reasonably close to eachother, but Spezza has the clear edge on goals, is FAR better at faceoffs, and is much better defensively.

Henrik is the better playmaker (though IMO, he has inflated assist numbers because he plays with Daniel, but that's an argument for another day, and is still a better playmaker than Spezza anyways), and better at staying healthy. Spezza has him beat at pretty much everything else.


I'm not saying Henrik is a bad player: I really like the Sedins. I'm just saying: Spezza > Henrik... but that's like comparing prime rib to a well-cooked porterhouse. Prime Rib is better than a succulent Porterhouse, but they're both delicious.
He may not be as good a goal scorer as Spezza but playing while you say playing with Daniel inflates his assists it also deflates his goal totals. Henrik's always scored more goals when Daniel's out of the lineup.

And while he's shorter on it now it's not like Spezza hasn't had elite talent on his wings in the past. It's not in your points but other Sens have brought up 'what if Spezza had a twin to play with'. In the year the Sens went to the finals if you pro-rate his stats over 82 games he'd have 106 points, playing with two equal all-stars at the time Heatley and Alfredsson. That doesn't beat Henrik's peak season, and Heatley & Alfredsson combined are a better pair of wingers than Daniel & Burrows. Daniel missed 19 games that season as well.

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07-12-2013, 12:59 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
It's sickening how terribly underrated the Sedins, in this case Henrik, are. Henrik Sedin is the best pure playmaker in the league. The man lead the league in assists 3 years in a row. Very few players have accomplished that feat. Not even Mario Lemieux. This guy is dominant at his position. What is Spezza dominant at? Being injured? Watching hockey games from the press box?...
You had me interested where this was going with the first bolded point, until you made the 2nd bolded point.

Then you lost me.

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Old
07-12-2013, 01:02 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandV View Post
He may not be as good a goal scorer as Spezza but playing while you say playing with Daniel inflates his assists it also deflates his goal totals. Henrik's always scored more goals when Daniel's out of the lineup.

And while he's shorter on it now it's not like Spezza hasn't had elite talent on his wings in the past. It's not in your points but other Sens have brought up 'what if Spezza had a twin to play with'. In the year the Sens went to the finals if you pro-rate his stats over 82 games he'd have 106 points, playing with two equal all-stars at the time Heatley and Alfredsson. That doesn't beat Henrik's peak season, and Heatley & Alfredsson combined are a better pair of wingers than Daniel & Burrows. Daniel missed 19 games that season as well.
Playing Devil's Advocate here:

If we are comparing Spezza's 106 point season to Henrik's 112 point season, we are really splitting hairs.
6 points in a year in which both players had over 100 points is negligible, at best.

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07-12-2013, 01:05 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandV View Post
He may not be as good a goal scorer as Spezza but playing while you say playing with Daniel inflates his assists it also deflates his goal totals. Henrik's always scored more goals when Daniel's out of the lineup.

And while he's shorter on it now it's not like Spezza hasn't had elite talent on his wings in the past. It's not in your points but other Sens have brought up 'what if Spezza had a twin to play with'. In the year the Sens went to the finals if you pro-rate his stats over 82 games he'd have 106 points, playing with two equal all-stars at the time Heatley and Alfredsson. That doesn't beat Henrik's peak season, and Heatley & Alfredsson combined are a better pair of wingers than Daniel & Burrows. Daniel missed 19 games that season as well.

As for the "linemates" point you made:

Daniel > Heatley
Alfredsson > Burrows.

(Color-coded to reflect team affiliation because I am bored)



(also, sorry for the triple-post. I am ashamed.)

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Old
07-12-2013, 01:18 AM
  #62
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How was Spezza's playoff run last year and this year (assuming he played after the back injury this year...didn't watch Sens games, that's why I'm asking)? Henrik would've been the far better choice if he was consistent in the playoffs (for some reason I don't see intensity and beautiful playmaking in his game in the playoffs as opposed to the regular season).


Last edited by JS19: 07-12-2013 at 01:28 AM. Reason: derp...forgot a word
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Old
07-12-2013, 01:24 AM
  #63
Henrik To Daniel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS19 View Post
How was Spezza's playoff run last year and this year (assuming he played after the back injury this year...didn't watch Sens games, that's why I'm asking)? Henrik would've been the far better choice if he was consistent in the playoffs (for some reason I don't see intensity and beautiful in his game in the playoffs as opposed to the regular season).
Henrik Sedin has a higher playoff PPG than "playoff hero", Conn Smythe winner Jonathan Toews over the past 4 years

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07-12-2013, 01:28 AM
  #64
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Spezza.

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07-12-2013, 01:28 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS19 View Post
How was Spezza's playoff run last year and this year (assuming he played after the back injury this year...didn't watch Sens games, that's why I'm asking)? Henrik would've been the far better choice if he was consistent in the playoffs (for some reason I don't see intensity and beautiful in his game in the playoffs as opposed to the regular season).
Did you watch the Sharks/Canucks series in 2011?

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07-12-2013, 01:31 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Did you watch the Sharks/Canucks series in 2011?
That's my point...how was he dominant in that series (and many others that I can't recall off the top of my head), and then silenced in 2013? Something about his game specifically in the playoffs nowadays seems off to me.

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07-12-2013, 01:35 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS19 View Post
How was Spezza's playoff run last year and this year (assuming he played after the back injury this year...didn't watch Sens games, that's why I'm asking)? Henrik would've been the far better choice if he was consistent in the playoffs (for some reason I don't see intensity and beautiful in his game in the playoffs as opposed to the regular season).
This year, he came back WAAAYYY to early so that he could help the team in the playoffs. It was discovered after the Penguins 2nd round debacle that he was also playing on a tweaked knee. He only played 3 games, one assist, looked hella-rusty. This past year was a complete write-off for Spez, playoffs included.

Last year, he had 5 points (tops on the Sens: 3g, 2a) in the 7-game loss to the Rangers. Played against the Rangers top line at even strength. Was the best player for either team at the faceoff dot at 54.3% (assuming, of course, you dismiss the fact that Zenon Konopka and his ridiculous 70.7% faceoff win percentage was also on our team that year... and he's only in the league to win faceoffs anyways, right?)

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Old
07-12-2013, 01:40 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
Henrik Sedin has a higher playoff PPG than "playoff hero", Conn Smythe winner Jonathan Toews over the past 4 years
So do quite a few other players. Why are you bringing Toews into a Spezza-Henrik thread?

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07-12-2013, 02:09 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by JS19 View Post
That's my point...how was he dominant in that series (and many others that I can't recall off the top of my head), and then silenced in 2013? Something about his game specifically in the playoffs nowadays seems off to me.
Well he was Vancouver's best player against LA last year, so by nowadays I assume you mean the last 4 games against SJ. Against the Sharks his line won most of their shifts against Couture/Marleau in terms of possession but struggled to convert it to scoring chances. A lot of the credit for that goes to Vlasic for keeping him in the cycle along the boards and to McKlellan who got Vlasic out there for 77.5% of Henrik's shifts.

I wouldn't really read much into 4 games, especially when he still got 3 points. You say he's slowed down nowadays but he's got 8 points in 9 playoff games over the past two years, leading Vancouver both years. He's still putting up pretty good numbers.

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07-12-2013, 02:56 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
So do quite a few other players. Why are you bringing Toews into a Spezza-Henrik thread?
Because the poster I was quoting brought up consistency in the playoffs as a knock on Henrik Sedin. So I compared Hank to a guy that is supposedly a playoff beast .. read

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07-12-2013, 03:16 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Playing Devil's Advocate here:

If we are comparing Spezza's 106 point season to Henrik's 112 point season, we are really splitting hairs.
6 points in a year in which both players had over 100 points is negligible, at best.
Except that Spezza has never scored more than 100 points in his career?

We just making up stuff now?

Remember Crosby's 139 point campaign in 2011-2012?

Pro-rating doesn't count on the scoresheet, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
As for the "linemates" point you made:

Daniel > Heatley
Alfredsson > Burrows.

(Color-coded to reflect team affiliation because I am bored)



(also, sorry for the triple-post. I am ashamed.)
Daniel = Heatley (100 point player vs 100 point player)
Alfredsson >>> Burrows (100 point player vs 55 point player)

If you're going to make an argument for Spezza, you're gonna have to use real facts.

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07-12-2013, 03:18 AM
  #72
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Spezza

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07-12-2013, 03:41 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Erik Alfredsson View Post
Really? Because, I'm pretty sure Spezza kills penalty's.

And by the way, Spezza doesn't have an identical twin next to him all the time, we'll see how good he is with Ryan, because he outscored Henrik with Michalek and Greening.
I love how you said "penalty's" as in.. a singular penalty kill. Ha.

Spezza contributes to the penalty in lieu of better options. In 2011-2 in his monster offensive season he got barely any PK time at all. In the few years before that when the Sens were struggling Spezza would fill in and contribute a minute or two a game. Back in the Pizza line heyday his role again was purely offensive and got no PK time at all.

Sedin is far more offensively talented than other players on the Canucks, and has the benefit of playing with some very good defense-first players. Thus he's not expected to play the PK at all. Back when the WCE was still around his role was very defensive and he logged tons of PK time.

Thus comparing defensive play is kind of stupid. Talented players are talented players and they are put in roles that best help their team.

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07-12-2013, 05:34 AM
  #74
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Based on my opinion: Sedin is a top 10 center in the league. Spezza is a top 15 center.

I really hate the linemate argument. People say players A will produce more than player B if A was placed in B's position. There is no guarantee that they would succeed in their position. Chemistry is a huge factor and is an asset to any team. There should be no knocks on having good chemistry with linemates. A major reason why Crosby is such an amazing player is that he can play with practically anyone and develop phenomenal chemistry.

Ex. If Spezza fails to click with Bobby Ryan and has a miserable season, would people say that Spezza sucks because he can't succeed with a first line talent in Ryan?

The linemate argument shouldn't even be used as they are both their team's first line centerman usually playing with their best wingers and getting the most favourable starts. Both players played with elite talent at one point or another.

IF the linemate argument is used then Spezza's stats are skewed due to playing with two 100 point players and he has yet to produce over 100 points in a regular season.

Offense Statistics show that Sedin beats Spezza. Both have played on the PK at some point in their career but I would say they are both pretty average and even.


I fail to understand how a poster indicated that Backstrom and Staal are currently better players than Sedin.

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07-12-2013, 05:41 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Spezza's line was also exploited defensively that year; 7th most even strength goals against for a center who played more than half the season. Meanwhile Henrik had the 7th best +/-ON/60 in the league that season for the same pool of players. Spezza may have scored 3 more points than Henrik that year, but he was playing pond hockey. Sedin was playing a puck possession game and led the West in scoring for the 2nd time in 3 years. Just because Spezza kills penalties doesn't make him better defensively.
Henrik also started nearly 80% of his shifts in the offensive zone, so claiming a defensive edge based on +/- or GA/60 is facetious.

Spezza's o-zone start % that year was 59.3.

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