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Henrik Sedin vs. Jason Spezza

View Poll Results: Who's better?
Canucks fan saying Sedin 73 24.25%
Non-Canucks fan saying Sedin 88 29.24%
Sens fan saying Spezza 63 20.93%
Non-Sens fan saying Spezza 77 25.58%
Voters: 301. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-12-2013, 06:49 AM
  #76
BonkTastic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyRabbit View Post
Except that Spezza has never scored more than 100 points in his career?
You know what? I have no idea why I thought that. I was going on memory, and after checking stats, you are right. I wasn't trying to pro-rate, I was just depending on my memory, which I have learned as I'm getting older is becoming much more of a gamble.

As for your Heatley = Daniel Sedin point, I will defend to the death that Daniel is almost twice the player Heatley is/was. Heatley was a one-timer machine, who would float into the zone late after Spezza or Alfie carried the puck in, waive his stick in the air like a 3rd grader asking to go to the bathroom 45 minutes after he started feeling like he needed to pee, and just reap the rewards. There is no possible way you can convince me that Danny Heatley is in any way equal to Daniel Sedin, unless we are talking about the ability to score via one-timers. In every other possible metric we have to evaluate a player, Daneil Sedin is far, far better.

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Old
07-12-2013, 07:18 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Phenomenon13 View Post
Based on my opinion: Sedin is a top 10 center in the league. Spezza is a top 15 center.
Only Spezza would finish 4th in league scoring with teammates who recorded 97 points in total(only 13 more than him by himself) and yet still be called a top 15 CENTER.

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Old
07-12-2013, 08:37 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Only Spezza would finish 4th in league scoring with teammates who recorded 97 points in total(only 13 more than him by himself) and yet still be called a top 15 CENTER.
Most people that look at Spezza think that he was carried in his younger days by a fantastic line (but don't realize that he was the straw that stirred the drink) and now see him as a talented but injury prone centre.

When healthy I don't know if there are more than a handful of players in the entire league I'd rather have on my team than him.

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Old
07-12-2013, 08:55 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by RandV View Post
He may not be as good a goal scorer as Spezza but playing while you say playing with Daniel inflates his assists it also deflates his goal totals. Henrik's always scored more goals when Daniel's out of the lineup.

And while he's shorter on it now it's not like Spezza hasn't had elite talent on his wings in the past. It's not in your points but other Sens have brought up 'what if Spezza had a twin to play with'. In the year the Sens went to the finals if you pro-rate his stats over 82 games he'd have 106 points, playing with two equal all-stars at the time Heatley and Alfredsson. That doesn't beat Henrik's peak season, and Heatley & Alfredsson combined are a better pair of wingers than Daniel & Burrows. Daniel missed 19 games that season as well.
Ok...so Henrik had 1 season that was better on a much deeper team than the Sens were (the Sens had 1 line). It's also worth noting that in that 106 point pace season Spezza was also on pace to score 41 goals. I'd take 12 extra goals over 6 extra points for an individual season, but meh (plus he was on pace for 108 points the year before that, and 99 points the year after.)

With that said, if you take Sedin's 3 best years with comparable linemates he has 288 points in 246 games...pretty impressive. Spezza has 269 points in 211 games...more impressive. Spezza had what...19 less points in 35 less games while scoring well over a p/g (1.27 p/g actually). When you take into account that Spezza is also pretty much always on pace to score 30 or more goals (or even 40 one season), and is better at faceoffs (we'll ignore defence since people don't want to admit Spezza is better there too) he's simply a better player.

Sedin is a very good player. Spezza is a great player. The only reason someone would take Sedin over Spezza would be health related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phenomenon13 View Post
Ex. If Spezza fails to click with Bobby Ryan and has a miserable season, would people say that Spezza sucks because he can't succeed with a first line talent in Ryan?
Spezza doesn't have miserable seasons. He has healthy seasons and injured seasons. In those cases he still produces elite numbers. So, even if he doesn't mesh with Bobby Ryan he will put up good numbers.

Quote:
The linemate argument shouldn't even be used as they are both their team's first line centerman usually playing with their best wingers and getting the most favourable starts. Both players played with elite talent at one point or another.

Offense Statistics show that Sedin beats Spezza. Both have played on the PK at some point in their career but I would say they are both pretty average and even.
Really?

Jason Spezza: 621 career points (1.016 p/g) in 611 career games with 228 goals (0.367 g/g).
Henrik Sedin: 792 career points (0.842 p/g) in 940 career games with 182 goals (0.229 g/g).

Jason Spezza: 52 career points (0.928 p/g) in 56 career games with 17 goals (0.326 g/g).
Henrik Sedin: 74 career points (0.771 p/g) in 96 career games with 22 goals (0.229 g/g).

I think statistics show that Spezza is pretty clearly the superior offensive player. I also saw someone mention character and leadership...which is interesting because last year was the first year that Spezza was put in a leadership role and pretty much had the reigns of the team and he was voted the 6th best player in the league and was 4th in the league in scoring with Michalek and Greening as his linemates (at times Regin, and others).

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Old
07-12-2013, 12:58 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominate Kesler View Post
Please don't kid yourself, these (bolded) are all toss ups. You can't tell any of these players are significantly better than Henrik.
Giroux Datsyuk and Toews are clearly better than Henrik, yes.

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Old
07-12-2013, 01:41 PM
  #81
Ronaldo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
I think statistics show that Spezza is pretty clearly the superior offensive player. I also saw someone mention character and leadership...which is interesting because last year was the first year that Spezza was put in a leadership role and pretty much had the reigns of the team and he was voted the 6th best player in the league and was 4th in the league in scoring with Michalek and Greening as his linemates (at times Regin, and others).
Firstly hilarious that you say Spezza just had a better one year the Spezza, look again Sedin has outscored Spezza 4 of the last 5 years the one year Spezza did outscore Sedin was by a messily 2 points. Secondly using career stats is a flawed for the Sedins' they were last bloomers and only started becoming prime offensive player in the big leagues after the full season lockout. Even then why should stats from 7 years ago judge who's better offensively now? Do a comparison of the last 5 years, Sedin blows Spezza out of the water.

Lastly, hilarious you mention Spezza in a leadership role. Which is interesting because the first year Henrik Sedin was captain of the Canucks he was 4th in league scoring(94 Points) Led the league in assists for the 2nd straight year and led his team to a President's trophy and Game 7 of the finals he also finished 2nd in playoff scoring that year.

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Old
07-12-2013, 01:47 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Only Spezza would finish 4th in league scoring with teammates who recorded 97 points in total(only 13 more than him by himself) and yet still be called a top 15 CENTER.
Aren't you the same poster who called Henrik the 16th best centre in the league, while he finished here in points? But let me guess Henrik is a product of Daniel.

Quote:
Henrik Sedin

2012-2013 - 10th
2011-2012 - 5th
2010-2011 - 1st
2009-2010 - 1st
2008-2009 - 10th

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Old
07-12-2013, 01:50 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Really?

Jason Spezza: 621 career points (1.016 p/g) in 611 career games with 228 goals (0.367 g/g).
Henrik Sedin: 792 career points (0.842 p/g) in 940 career games with 182 goals (0.229 g/g).

Jason Spezza: 52 career points (0.928 p/g) in 56 career games with 17 goals (0.326 g/g).
Henrik Sedin: 74 career points (0.771 p/g) in 96 career games with 22 goals (0.229 g/g).
Going by total career numbers it's well known that the Sedins had a very slow start. No one will argue that Henrik was better than Spezza from the age 20-24.

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Old
07-12-2013, 01:54 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by burf View Post
Henrik also started nearly 80% of his shifts in the offensive zone, so claiming a defensive edge based on +/- or GA/60 is facetious.

Spezza's o-zone start % that year was 59.3.
You're right, but that's not nearly as significant as you might think. Sedin played most of this year without Malhotra and Kesler so he was asked to do a lot of the heavy lifting defensively. To the surprise of no one who's consistently watched him play throughout his career, he excelled. Some facts:

- The tougher assignments caused his Corsi Rel QoC to jump from 0.328 to 1.077
- His O-zone starts dropped from 78.6% to 63.7%
- His GA ON/60 dropped from 2.02 to 1.51, a pace of 10 less goals allowed per season.
- His +/- ON/60 increased from 1.27 to 1.59, while his +/- OFF/60 dropped from 0.04 to -0.57.
- His unadjusted Corsi rose from 18.7 to 22.84 and his Corsi Rel rose from 18.1 to 28.7

Using the same pool of eligible players as last time (centers who played more than half the season) this is where Henrik ranked in some of those categories last year:

- 20th in Corsi Rel QoC
- 1st in Corse Rel
- 3rd in Corsi
- 3rd in O-zone starts (in line with Malkin, M.Koivu, Zetterberg)
- 1st in O-zone finishes (admittedly due largely to his start %)
- 20th in GF ON/60
- 12th in GA ON/60 (6th if you dismiss the 4th liners)
- 5th in +/- ON/60 (behind only Crosby, Toews, Bergeron and Stepan)

As you see, Henrik actually performed significantly better when given the hardest assignments and less favourable starts. Unfortunately with the huge increase in defensive responsibility he couldn't keep up the same even strength scoring pace from the previous year, as he saw his numbers drop from 0.66 EV PPG to 0.65 EV PPG, which works out to a single point over an 82 game season. Statistically he was a top 5 two way center in the league last year; his closest comparable was Kopitar, who he did this to in the process:





TL;DR Henrik's unprecedented high offensive zone starts didn't give him any tangible advantage over more conventional zone start percentages. Your argument doesn't hold water, and you don't know what facetious means.

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Old
07-12-2013, 02:31 PM
  #85
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Really close, but i'm gonna go with Sedin

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Old
07-12-2013, 02:32 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Spezza's line was also exploited defensively that year; 7th most even strength goals against for a center who played more than half the season. Meanwhile Henrik had the 7th best +/-ON/60 in the league that season for the same pool of players. Spezza may have scored 3 more points than Henrik that year, but he was playing pond hockey. Sedin was playing a puck possession game and led the West in scoring for the 2nd time in 3 years. Just because Spezza kills penalties doesn't make him better defensively.

They're very comparable players, you can make an argument for either one. There's no definitive answer here.
Edit: Mis-read what you said sorry.

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07-12-2013, 02:35 PM
  #87
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I can't wait for Spezza to prove everyone wrong this year, mark my words if he's healthy, he'll be in the top 5 for scoring for sure.

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07-12-2013, 02:37 PM
  #88
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Very close I think but I pick Sedin because he can actually play an entire season. If we're only considering skill I would probably go with Spezza

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07-12-2013, 04:10 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Erik Alfredsson View Post
I can't wait for Spezza to prove everyone wrong this year, mark my words if he's healthy, he'll be in the top 5 for scoring for sure.
I don't think anyone denies that Spezza could do that. Rather this is a comparison between Henrik Sedin who has been consistently better the last 5 or so years and a safer but though not guaranteed to have a better year this upcoming season as well.

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Old
07-12-2013, 04:51 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Kesler2Burrows View Post
Aren't you the same poster who called Henrik the 16th best centre in the league, while he finished here in points? But let me guess Henrik is a product of Daniel.
Nope, that was me.

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07-12-2013, 05:14 PM
  #91
Ronaldo
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Originally Posted by KarlssonnSchultz View Post
Nope, that was me.
Ah my bad.

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Old
07-12-2013, 06:04 PM
  #92
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Jason Spezza AINEC.

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07-12-2013, 06:31 PM
  #93
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Sens fan

Spezza obviously

He doesn't dissapear in the playoffs (well he did get shutdown in the 2007 Final but that happens)

Sedins are no shows come crunch time

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07-12-2013, 07:19 PM
  #94
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Canuck fan saying Spezza.

After last season I've lost a lot of faith in Henrik, I see him on a steady decline until he retires. I hope he proves me wrong though.

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07-12-2013, 07:34 PM
  #95
Ronaldo
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
Sens fan

Spezza obviously

He doesn't dissapear in the playoffs (well he did get shutdown in the 2007 Final but that happens)

Sedins are no shows come crunch time
You were saying?

Quote:
Another baseless claim is the Sedins' haven't been good in the playoffs recently. Over the course of the last 4 seasons in Sedin has 44 points in 46 games (.92 PPG) while HF golden boy Jonathan Toews has 51 points in 58 games (.88 PPG) Sedin is dubbed as a playoff choker while Toews is viewed as a Canadian Hero. Lets take a look at another HF Golden Boy Pavel Datsyuk in 42 playoff games in the same span Datsyuk has 40 playoff points (.95 PPG) Another player dubbed as a warrior while Sedin is dubbed as a choker.

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07-12-2013, 07:41 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by RandV View Post
Going by total career numbers it's well known that the Sedins had a very slow start. No one will argue that Henrik was better than Spezza from the age 20-24.
Oh so we are cherry picking time frames instead of whole body of work?

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07-12-2013, 07:42 PM
  #97
Ronaldo
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Originally Posted by SNES View Post
Oh so we are cherry picking time frames instead of whole body of work?
Why should the past be more relevant then now?

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07-12-2013, 09:24 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
Ok...so Henrik had 1 season that was better on a much deeper team than the Sens were (the Sens had 1 line). It's also worth noting that in that 106 point pace season Spezza was also on pace to score 41 goals. I'd take 12 extra goals over 6 extra points for an individual season, but meh (plus he was on pace for 108 points the year before that, and 99 points the year after.)

With that said, if you take Sedin's 3 best years with comparable linemates he has 288 points in 246 games...pretty impressive. Spezza has 269 points in 211 games...more impressive. Spezza had what...19 less points in 35 less games while scoring well over a p/g (1.27 p/g actually). When you take into account that Spezza is also pretty much always on pace to score 30 or more goals (or even 40 one season), and is better at faceoffs (we'll ignore defence since people don't want to admit Spezza is better there too) he's simply a better player.

Sedin is a very good player. Spezza is a great player. The only reason someone would take Sedin over Spezza would be health related.



Spezza doesn't have miserable seasons. He has healthy seasons and injured seasons. In those cases he still produces elite numbers. So, even if he doesn't mesh with Bobby Ryan he will put up good numbers.



Really?

Jason Spezza: 621 career points (1.016 p/g) in 611 career games with 228 goals (0.367 g/g).
Henrik Sedin: 792 career points (0.842 p/g) in 940 career games with 182 goals (0.229 g/g).

Jason Spezza: 52 career points (0.928 p/g) in 56 career games with 17 goals (0.326 g/g).
Henrik Sedin: 74 career points (0.771 p/g) in 96 career games with 22 goals (0.229 g/g).

I think statistics show that Spezza is pretty clearly the superior offensive player. I also saw someone mention character and leadership...which is interesting because last year was the first year that Spezza was put in a leadership role and pretty much had the reigns of the team and he was voted the 6th best player in the league and was 4th in the league in scoring with Michalek and Greening as his linemates (at times Regin, and others).

In terms of offence, do you see Spezza leading the league in scoring if he is fully healthy? I actually don't think Spezza will ever win the art ross even if he was full healthy due to the amount of great players that are just better than him.
Henrik Sedin has done so twice. He has shown to be elite offensively. These achievements and the previous few seasons have shown that Sedin has brought his game to a level higher than Spezza. I understand that you feel the need to include their entire career years but the more recent history is more relevant and accurate in determining who is better offensively and it has shown to be sedin.

I hope you are not implying that in terms of leadership responsibilities that Spezza has more responsibilities and value than Sedin.

You are missing the point in my example regarding Spezza and Ryan. It was an hypothetical example used to convey a flaw in logic that just cause players being placed in a situation to play with "better" linemates does not mean they will succeed. It was not meant to say that Spezza will fail or suck.

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Old
07-12-2013, 10:09 PM
  #99
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Career Sedin, currently Spezza.

Don't think Spezza ever gets to Sedin's best.

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07-12-2013, 10:14 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Playing Devil's Advocate here:

If we are comparing Spezza's 106 point season to Henrik's 112 point season, we are really splitting hairs.
6 points in a year in which both players had over 100 points is negligible, at best.
Except only one of those seasons actually happened.

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