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The Luongo Thread: Part LXMV

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08-15-2013, 10:11 AM
  #926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorNelson View Post
"On another note, Botchford asks, does Luongo need to be happy to win?"

Botchford is not being rhetorical, Luongo does want out. So, he is unhappy.

I think what Botchford is addressing is how the team around Luongo plays, knowing he wants a trade and has asked for one? It's a legitimate question. Suppose a starter is injured in Florida or montreal. The rumors will fire up right away and remain blaring until the issue is resolved. Is that distracting?

I don't think a new coach would appreciate this sort of ongoing BS in the room. Canucks are simply a badly managed team. This is a symptom of that. I think it is more serious than we realize, now.

I have seen no indication at all that Tortorelli is a good fit with this line-up. Add an unhappy starter and unfamiliar system and I think it could be pretty rocky. Consider, Luongo is going to try to impress with his play, to earn a spot on the Olympic team. If the team struggles with the new system or whatever, how is Luongo going to react? A guy who doesn't want to be a Canuck, watching as his Olympic chances dwindle with every loss might not be ideal.

A lot of factors need to compound before a hockey team has success. This team has had some success, so maybe this sort of stuff won't even matter. Is it wise to go forward knowing these issues already exist and are festering?
Bad point. They aren't stupid (for the most part). They know he wanted a trade because it was transitioning to being Cory's team and he knew his contract/presence would be a distraction, and because he wants to play. That's gone now. Of course there's still hurt feelings, but these are grown men, everyone will get over it.

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08-15-2013, 10:11 AM
  #927
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
If he really wanted a fresh start - he wouldn't have blocked any trades (given that he's smart enough to figure there are only a limited number of teams that would want to take on his contract).
I think Luongo had some bad information as to which teams were actually seriously interested in him. With that bad information he blocked trades hoping to get traded to a team of his choosing.

Now he's looking at the situation, realizing that he's gonna be returning to Vancouver, and it's not a bad situation but it's not the ideal situation which he had in mind and was looking forward to.

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08-15-2013, 10:21 AM
  #928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
The full quote is this:



The way I read that is Luongo turned down TOR twice... Not that he was willing to go there. The other two cities stand apart from that. So in essence, Lu nixed three places to go to, one on multiple occasions, and perhaps some more we don't know about... That's being awfully active with one's NTC, only to be left crying at the deadline, putting it solely on his contract.

Something about this situation just screams bad plays on the part of Lupien/Luongo.


Speaking strictly for myself: There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that Gillis/Burke could have gotten a deal done surrounding Luongo/Schenn as the main pieces. He was moveable... he just didn't want to move to TOR.
And to further support your theme, Lupien gets fired and Lou gets new representation.

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08-15-2013, 10:40 AM
  #929
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So basically we're worse off because Luongo is selfish and overvalued himself? Great. Makes me even more unhappy with keeping him and trading Schneider.

Worst. Move. Ever.

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08-15-2013, 11:02 AM
  #930
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Speaking strictly for myself: There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that Gillis/Burke could have gotten a deal done surrounding Luongo/Schenn as the main pieces. He was moveable... he just didn't want to move to TOR.
I'm glad that didn't happen if it was Schenn coming back.

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08-15-2013, 11:12 AM
  #931
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So basically we're worse off because Luongo is selfish and overvalued himself? Great. Makes me even more unhappy with keeping him and trading Schneider.

Worst. Move. Ever.
More likely bad advice from his agent. My reading of the situation is Lupien was confident he'd get some sort of Florida/Tampa deal done and Luongo is left holding the bag.

It will just make the CBC biopic better when the Canucks win a cup, Luongo is revered as a hero, and ends his career in Canucks colours -- whatever those happen to be at that piont (neon maybe...).

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08-15-2013, 11:45 AM
  #932
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More likely bad advice from his agent. My reading of the situation is Lupien was confident he'd get some sort of Florida/Tampa deal done and Luongo is left holding the bag.

It will just make the CBC biopic better when the Canucks win a cup, Luongo is revered as a hero, and ends his career in Canucks colours -- whatever those happen to be at that piont (neon maybe...).
keep the dream alive-if the diva brings home the cup all will be forgiven.

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08-15-2013, 12:09 PM
  #933
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08-15-2013, 12:22 PM
  #934
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Originally Posted by freakydave View Post
keep the dream alive-if the diva brings home the cup all will be forgiven.
Diva is a little harsh considering how professional he's acted through this debacle. It's been the media that's been starting and ballooning the drama to epic proportions. Without the media stirring the pot, Luongo would just keep on keepin on and no one would be calling him a diva and trouble maker, etc.

While a lot of being reported is true to a point, the media just seems to enjoy making the situation look worse than it probably is.

That's my take.

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08-15-2013, 12:57 PM
  #935
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I'm glad that didn't happen if it was Schenn coming back.
I dunno. Could have followed it up with Schenn for JVR. The cap situation would have been nasty, but value might have been there.

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08-15-2013, 04:30 PM
  #936
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I dunno. Could have followed it up with Schenn for JVR. The cap situation would have been nasty, but value might have been there.
I wonder if Gillis knew that there was interest from Philly in Schenn at the time, though.

If not it would have meant having Schenn over Garrison as well.

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08-15-2013, 04:36 PM
  #937
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08-15-2013, 07:13 PM
  #938
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Originally Posted by crazycanuck View Post
I think Luongo had some bad information as to which teams were actually seriously interested in him. With that bad information he blocked trades hoping to get traded to a team of his choosing.
Lu said at his press conference that he never was asked to waive his NTC.

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08-15-2013, 07:18 PM
  #939
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Gillis has two complete fumbles on his record IMO: The Ballard situation and the Luongo situation. Go through any GMs 5 year record and find less...
The severity of those two situations are probably greater than anywhere else, though, too.

There are some other pretty critical errors, too: letting Ehrhoff walk, letting Torres walk, overpaying for Derek Roy (which Gillis practically acknowledged), the Hodgson trade (at a minimum, the timing of it), Sami Pahlsson, Marco Sturm...

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08-15-2013, 07:38 PM
  #940
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Speaking strictly for myself: There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that Gillis/Burke could have gotten a deal done surrounding Luongo/Schenn as the main pieces. He was moveable... he just didn't want to move to TOR.
Maybe, but it would seem odd to me that he'd have such a change of heart only a few months later. That's who Gillis was negotiating with at the deadline. The Leafs - Brian Burke, especially - don't really seem like the type of team that'd be all that interested in bringing in a guy who doesn't want to be there.

Luongo was asked if he ever blocked anything from happening, and he said no, so I really see no reason to not believe him.

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08-15-2013, 07:41 PM
  #941
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
The severity of those two situations are probably greater than anywhere else, though, too.

There are some other pretty critical errors, too: letting Ehrhoff walk, letting Torres walk, overpaying for Derek Roy (which Gillis practically acknowledged), the Hodgson trade (at a minimum, the timing of it), Sami Pahlsson, Marco Sturm...
Basically June 2011-June 2013.

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08-15-2013, 07:57 PM
  #942
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
The severity of those two situations are probably greater than anywhere else, though, too.

There are some other pretty critical errors, too: letting Ehrhoff walk, letting Torres walk, overpaying for Derek Roy (which Gillis practically acknowledged), the Hodgson trade (at a minimum, the timing of it), Sami Pahlsson, Marco Sturm...
Impossible to say that any of those were "critical errors".... Ehrhoff got a ridiculously long contract that ownership was not willing to offer him here. Whether he would have signed for the same figures that the rest of the defense were signed to is a complete unknown.

Losing Torres was hardly a big deal.. he was basically a 4th liner that got paid $1.75mill/yr on a 2yr deal.

Sending a 2nd round pick and a mid-level prospect who had fallen down the prospects rankings here is hardly an overpayment for a 2nd line rental center. Gillis didn't acknowledge that he overpaid, he acknowledged that there were few such assets available in the trade market and paid the price that such assets always go for at the deadline.

Pahlsson was had for a couple of mid-round picks... hardly a bad price for to fill a void in the 3rd line role to get a shutdown guy.

And Sturm was a UFA signing that was dealt as an asset just a few months later. How is that bad asset management?

Gillis has made mistakes like all GMs do. But calling them "Critical errors" is blowing it out of proportion.

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08-15-2013, 08:03 PM
  #943
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I am having trouble understanding how Pahlsson and Sturm are critical errors. We didn't give up a thing of significance for them, which seems like at the most that would make them small errors.

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08-15-2013, 08:13 PM
  #944
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Impossible to say that any of those were "critical errors".... Ehrhoff got a ridiculously long contract that ownership was not willing to offer him here. Whether he would have signed for the same figures that the rest of the defense were signed to is a complete unknown.

Losing Torres was hardly a big deal.. he was basically a 4th liner that got paid $1.75mill/yr on a 2yr deal.

Sending a 2nd round pick and a mid-level prospect who had fallen down the prospects rankings here is hardly an overpayment for a 2nd line rental center. Gillis didn't acknowledge that he overpaid, he acknowledged that there were few such assets available in the trade market and paid the price that such assets always go for at the deadline.

Pahlsson was had for a couple of mid-round picks... hardly a bad price for to fill a void in the 3rd line role to get a shutdown guy.

And Sturm was a UFA signing that was dealt as an asset just a few months later. How is that bad asset management?

Gillis has made mistakes like all GMs do. But calling them "Critical errors" is blowing it out of proportion.
This team has not been the same since Ehrhoff left. The guy was the perfect fit on this team. Should've found a way to retain him. This "internal cap" stuff is stupid. Of course he should be getting paid more than Kevin Bieksa - he was our best defenceman for both of his years here, and he's 2 years younger.

I disagree about Torres. He's a very unique player that brought very unique elements of toughness, intimidation, and even the ability to score. Giving up on him was a real head-scratcher. I believe Gillis instead chose to sign Marco Sturm, which is hard to fathom.

Calling Pahlsson and Sturm "critical" errors is over the top, sure, I agree. A better word would've been "obvious" errors. Pahlsson was acquired in 2012, based on his playoff performance in 2007. I believe he was 34 or 35 years old at the time, and he had not made the playoffs since. The guy clearly was not that interested in hockey. One foot was already well into retirement when he was acquired.

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08-15-2013, 08:17 PM
  #945
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Grass is greener mentality. Things went bad, so if Gillis did everything the opposite, there is the assumption things would have gone good... even though doing things different would just yield different problems. Crisis management is the fact of managing an NHL team. There is no perfect track record.

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08-15-2013, 08:37 PM
  #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorNelson View Post
"On another note, Botchford asks, does Luongo need to be happy to win?"

Botchford is not being rhetorical, Luongo does want out. So, he is unhappy.

I think what Botchford is addressing is how the team around Luongo plays, knowing he wants a trade and has asked for one? It's a legitimate question. Suppose a starter is injured in Florida or montreal. The rumors will fire up right away and remain blaring until the issue is resolved. Is that distracting?
I would ask does Luongo have to play well to create a "trade" market? My answer: Yes. But if he doesn't does he essentially "force" the Canucks hand into a compliance buy-out? I think for Luongo, reputation and being the competitor that he is and if he isn't playing well, his chances to be on Sochi 2014 as the starter or otherwise would be gone and even if he's compliance bought-out if he becomes a back-up to a Lack or the other goalie in the system during the course of the year, how many other NHL teams would be lining up to commit to him long-term?

Therefore, I believe in Luongo's best interest to do the best he can i.e. for Sochi 2014 and to create a potential market for some sort of trade that is agreeable to him and the Canucks. That should be motivation enough, even if he's not "happy" being here for another season.

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08-15-2013, 08:41 PM
  #947
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I agree letting Ehrhoff go was a poor move, he complimented the Sedins and Edler perfectly, but the Bieksa vs Ehrhoff debate cannot be done in hindsight. We had just gotten pushed around and bullied by the Bruins and everyone was calling for us to be a tougher team. Ehrhoff was one of our worst +/- players in the 2011 playoffs (-13) while Hamhuis-Bieksa was a brilliant shutdown pair. I know +/- is a flawed stat, but there is some legitimacy of it when comparing two players on the same team.

It was not an easy decision, nor was there an obvious choice.
I don't think it came down to one or the other. IIRC, Ehrhoff was offered a similar deal to what Bieksa decided to take, but he instead waited to get a contract that offered him more money in its totality. Just over 15M more (without looking at capgeek). In otherwords, do you think it would have been a wise move to match that kind of offer that Ehrhoff signed with the Sabres? If so, we wouldn't have a Garrison on the roster.

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08-15-2013, 08:47 PM
  #948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazycanuck View Post
Diva is a little harsh considering how professional he's acted through this debacle. It's been the media that's been starting and ballooning the drama to epic proportions. Without the media stirring the pot, Luongo would just keep on keepin on and no one would be calling him a diva and trouble maker, etc.

While a lot of being reported is true to a point, the media just seems to enjoy making the situation look worse than it probably is.

That's my take.
It was Luongo two years ago who said that he wanted... correction,
he would prefer to play for a different team because it appeared that he lost his
number 1 position to Schneider, this at his year end press conference.

So instead of he putting the team first, he was thinking about himself first
by publicly asking to be moved.

What this did was he completely destroyed any trade value that he had because
he couldn't keep his mouth shut, and let Gillis do his work. Add that to the
12 year contract, and he becomes untradable.

Wouldn't call him a diva either, but there's no doubt he kicked himself in
the head by not keeping his mouth shut and his ego off.

Any player that comes out and publicly demands to be traded, he immediately
places his GM behind the 8 ball, and forces him to trade from a position of
weakness.

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08-15-2013, 09:01 PM
  #949
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Originally Posted by Betamax View Post
I don't think it came down to one or the other. IIRC, Ehrhoff was offered a similar deal to what Bieksa decided to take, but he instead waited to get a contract that offered him more money in its totality. Just over 15M more (without looking at capgeek). In otherwords, do you think it would have been a wise move to match that kind of offer that Ehrhoff signed with the Sabres? If so, we wouldn't have a Garrison on the roster.
What I was trying to get at, is that Ehrhoff didn't necessarily deserve more than what Bieksa got. Since CE wasn't willing to take what Bieksa took, I don't think it was wrong at the time to let him walk. Although I would personally rather have him than Garrison, but at the time it made sense.

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08-15-2013, 09:07 PM
  #950
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sucks the luongo we are the world vid got buried in this thread. #creativesuppression!
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Agreed, specially with the Botchford column taking up conversation and casting a shadow over what is a great piece of work by Mooney and Co.
I think it's pretty clear that the users here are more interested in Botchford's thoughts on this matter over a group of Canucks bloggers et al. attempting to be amusing and "pump the tires" of Bobby Lu.

#JustSayNOtoBrownNosing

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