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KHL= New WHA?

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Old
07-14-2013, 02:20 PM
  #126
Atas2000
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It's not really comparable. The KHL isn't in NA. It's a european league not competing for NHL markets. There is no big desire in the KHL to lure star players from NA, there is enough european talent to work with at this point.

Ppl who bash KHL talent level have no idea though.

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07-14-2013, 02:26 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by HamiltonFan View Post
One of the more hilarious things you've seen on these boards? I guess the joke's on you then. Your post here suggests a complete lack of education on the issue at hand.

When a pro athlete plays a road game, they're charged taxes in the city of that road game.
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...hletes-683449/
Thus, at the very least, a KHL player based in southern ontario would pay roughly half of his taxes at the Russian rate, as he would be on the road half the time.

In the future, I would kindly ask that you be somewhat informed about topics that you choose to discuss. I don't enjoy having to dig up basic information in order to spoon-feed people who aren't up to speed on certain issues.
Those taxes aren't instead of the home taxes, they're in addition to them. Most states (I don't know about provinces) give a credit for taxes paid elsewhere, but the entire income is still subject to local taxes. Their taxes won't go down playing games overseas.

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07-14-2013, 02:31 PM
  #128
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Nope. Talent wise, perhaps, but the WHA was in NA and tapped into NA markets the NHL didn't really consider and flourished in several. Not only that, but they also tried taking over NHL turf. Not really comparable to the KHL, which is solely European.

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07-14-2013, 02:37 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Those taxes aren't instead of the home taxes, they're in addition to them. Most states (I don't know about provinces) give a credit for taxes paid elsewhere, but the entire income is still subject to local taxes. Their taxes won't go down playing games overseas.
You can become a non-tax resident in Canada if you plan to live overseas and work for an extended period of time. I am looking into this right now because I have a job offer overseas, but there are a lot of issues around it.

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07-14-2013, 03:06 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Those taxes aren't instead of the home taxes, they're in addition to them. Most states (I don't know about provinces) give a credit for taxes paid elsewhere, but the entire income is still subject to local taxes. Their taxes won't go down playing games overseas.
This post is completely 100% wrong. Please read up on the issue, the article that I linked earlier adequately covers it. It's not my job to continue to dig up articles to spoon feed those who don't understand the facts.

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07-14-2013, 03:22 PM
  #131
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I wonder if the KHL has ever considered putting 2 or 3 teams in southern ontario to establish a north american presence?

Southern ontario is an area that is grossly underserved by the nhl. The southern ontario region has more hockey fans than NYC and Montreal combined. Hamilton would be an obvious first choice, with other possibilities being Markham (if the new arena gets built), and the Kitchener/London area. 2 or 3 teams in the region would be better than just 1 for travel purposes. A southern ontario presence for the KHL would allow them to much better attract north american players. It's much more palatable for north american players to be based in southern ontario and play half your games there (albeit with long road trips), as opposed to moving to and living in Russia (or other European locations) for entire seasons. These southern ontario teams would possibly be attractive destinations for the younger, RFA nhl'ers who are artificially underpaid due to the nhl CBA. Throw in the KHL tax advantages, and suddenly these southern ontario teams could be legitimate alternatives to the nhl for the north american demographic that the KHL currently lacks. I'm not saying that this is a perfect plan by any stretch, but it is an intriguing possibility if the KHL has any north american aspirations.
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Originally Posted by HamiltonFan View Post
One of the more hilarious things you've seen on these boards? I guess the joke's on you then. Your post here suggests a complete lack of education on the issue at hand.

When a pro athlete plays a road game, they're charged taxes in the city of that road game.
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...hletes-683449/
Thus, at the very least, a KHL player based in southern ontario would pay roughly half of his taxes at the Russian rate, as he would be on the road half the time.

In the future, I would kindly ask that you be somewhat informed about topics that you choose to discuss. I don't enjoy having to dig up basic information in order to spoon-feed people who aren't up to speed on certain issues.
They would still be paying the majority of their taxes in Ontario because the schedule would likely have them playing most of their games against the other Ontario teams. Even if the KHL added three Ontario teams who played in a division that included European teams, the nearest time difference would be six hours to Prague. Moscow is eight hours away. When do you schedule away games? How do you build a fanbase when your away games are at awkward times? Who buys the TV rights? Who advertises for them?

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07-14-2013, 03:27 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by HamiltonFan View Post
This post is completely 100% wrong. Please read up on the issue, the article that I linked earlier adequately covers it. It's not my job to continue to dig up articles to spoon feed those who don't understand the facts.
That article merely states that municipalities tax out of towners who make money there. Absolutely nowhere does it state that the home state doesn't also tax those games as well. It does state this

Quote:
Most states give credit for taxes paid elsewhere, meaning Pennsylvania loses revenue when the Penguins play in Buffalo but makes it up when the Sabres visit Consol Energy Center. The method to figure out who owes what differs in each state and municipality.
Learn to read critically before accusing others of not reading things.

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07-14-2013, 03:31 PM
  #133
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You can become a non-tax resident in Canada if you plan to live overseas and work for an extended period of time. I am looking into this right now because I have a job offer overseas, but there are a lot of issues around it.
Yes, but it would be a hard sell to have a franchise based in Ontario and say the players were living and working overseas when half the games would be in Ontario.

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07-14-2013, 06:09 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Alklha View Post


Did you even bother reading my post that you quoted?

Simply having 1 team from another 4 or 5 non-Soviet countries doesn't make it a European League, and if the KHL wants to attract the top Europeans then they are going to have to commit to being a European League to a much larger degree than they even claim to be willing to. If they aren't committed to being a European League, they aren't going to keep the top Europeans.

Open my eyes? I've probably been to more KHL arenas over the past few years than anyone else on these forums, so my eyes are open...
What?

I never claimed the KHL to be THE European league. It is def the most prolific of leagues outside of the NHL but its also a very young league.

Their plan is to create the United Hockey League where the best teams in Europe will face one another throughout the season. Probably implement divisions and promotions/relegations.

But it does not happen over night.

Yet, there doing it right. Maybe they cant pick up more than 1 or 2 top European elite players now. But they can start by trying to keep their youth in their country. And I think creating the reserve league that they have is a big step toward that.

It creates more options for European players and better development.

Unlike the super league, the KHL is filled with more big time owners too. Hands down, the KHL has grown a lot over the last few years and as it adopts teams like Milan and Medvescak and Spartan and whatever other big cities or big hockey franchises come through, the league will further grow.

Having Ilya Kovalchuk, Alex Radulov and a few other stars is not a whole lot but its a start.

Sooner or later your going to have teams in the Nordic countries need new options. Playing domestic league games has not been the best for them. I hear a lot of the teams are losing a ton of money, so to play year round in the KHL will offer more sponsors, bigger prize money and overall just better talent.

Next thing you know, Alex Semin wants to come back to the KHL. Ovechkin is tired of the NHL and wants to come back to Dinamo. Datsyuk retires from Detroit and joins the KHL too. Older, but still a big name and talented player.

Little by little the European game will grow.

and my statement to open the eyes, was not toward you specficially. Its too everyone who believes the KHL cannot ever compete at the level of the NHL.

Maybe not, but it can be close.

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07-14-2013, 06:16 PM
  #135
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The KHL will never have to market itself here. They might bring a game over here as an event here and there but you can never expect North Americans to choose the KHL over the NHL.

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07-14-2013, 06:48 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
The talent was never spread equally across 200 teams all over Europe.
We have never had salary cap in soccer, have we?

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If the talent was spread like it was 'back in the day', you'd have no problem following all of the top players in Europe since all the top leagues are televised these days and teams not in the top 4 or 5 leagues you could still watch play the European cup.
Well, for example, I have never seen Podolski play for Koeln despite liking his play for Bayern and team Germany. If soccer had worked like NHL does, he would have been still stuck there, I think. In my eyes, the fact that Bayern and then Arsenal took out the check book and signed him is a good thing.

Thing is, I cannot possibly follow 4-5 top leagues as closely as I follow Champions League, and I suspect many people are like that. If most of the games in EPL, La Liga, etc were worth watching, it would only make me undecided what to watch and unhappy as a result. I can only watch 1-2 games a week, on average (or 3-4 if NHL is locked out or has not started )

Going back to the topic, I feel like nothing bad will come out of the lack of salary cap (de-facto) in KHL, at least in the nearest future. They are not playing zero-sum game there, they are not just buying players from each other and bidding up the salaries. They are bringing in NHL regulars and get more attention and more revenue with each big signing.

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07-14-2013, 07:26 PM
  #137
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it would be nice to see some of the games be televised in north America, I know the time shift makes it complicated, but there are situations where it would work

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07-14-2013, 08:16 PM
  #138
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If a European league like the EPL wanted to implement a salary cap, they would have to expect many superstars leaving. A salary cap will force many players to lose out on big money and thus leave for another league.

But you all act as though there are no limitations for these players and teams.
Many leagues adopt a rule where they need to have a certain amount of domestic players on their roster.

And UEFA just created a rule where teams can no longer buy players with money they do not have. No longer can a team like Barcelona buy a player with money they hope to earn, then sell him off in a few years.


Plus, soccer is vastly different from hockey. Every country in the world has a soccer team and a soccer league. Some have several. You say you do not want to have teams where its Ribery + Robben then a bunch of nobodies.

What makes you think that would be a bunch of nobodies?

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07-14-2013, 08:18 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
That article merely states that municipalities tax out of towners who make money there. Absolutely nowhere does it state that the home state doesn't also tax those games as well. It does state this



Learn to read critically before accusing others of not reading things.
From the article:

"Of the 24 states that house professional sports teams, 20 collect income tax on their home and visiting teams."

4 of the 24 states don't collect income tax because they are income tax free states. It's pretty straight forward, I don't know why you don't get it. In an athletes 80 game schedule, 40 of the games (home games) are taxed at the home state income tax rate, while the remaining 40 away games are taxed at the various rates of the states of the away games. It goes without saying that the home state can't charge an additional home state income tax on the 40 away games that are already taxed by the away states. In fact, this is confirmed by the very quote that you provided:

"Most states give credit for taxes paid elsewhere, meaning Pennsylvania loses revenue when the Penguins play in Buffalo but makes it up when the Sabres visit Consol Energy Cente"

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07-14-2013, 09:25 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
Sooner or later your going to have teams in the Nordic countries need new options. Playing domestic league games has not been the best for them. I hear a lot of the teams are losing a ton of money, so to play year round in the KHL will offer more sponsors, bigger prize money and overall just better talent.
Will the KHL really offer a better financial situation for Nordic teams? The league is growing but so much of what allows them to poach NHL players is billionaire Russian's willing to spend money on a toy. I'll be impressed when I see the actual financials of the league start looking a little closer to the NHL, healthy ticket revenue + TV Deals + sponsorship on a league-wide basis.

It would be a tricky transition since while there may be more money to be earned you're also going to have to start spending a lot more money on player contracts. If a Nordic team is struggling financially I'd imagine it's more of a slow bleed, joining the KHL if it doesn't work would be akin to cutting your arm off.

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07-14-2013, 09:29 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by HamiltonFan View Post
I wonder if the KHL has ever considered putting 2 or 3 teams in southern ontario to establish a north american presence?

Southern ontario is an area that is grossly underserved by the nhl. The southern ontario region has more hockey fans than NYC and Montreal combined. Hamilton would be an obvious first choice, with other possibilities being Markham (if the new arena gets built), and the Kitchener/London area. 2 or 3 teams in the region would be better than just 1 for travel purposes. A southern ontario presence for the KHL would allow them to much better attract north american players. It's much more palatable for north american players to be based in southern ontario and play half your games there (albeit with long road trips), as opposed to moving to and living in Russia (or other European locations) for entire seasons. These southern ontario teams would possibly be attractive destinations for the younger, RFA nhl'ers who are artificially underpaid due to the nhl CBA. Throw in the KHL tax advantages, and suddenly these southern ontario teams could be legitimate alternatives to the nhl for the north american demographic that the KHL currently lacks. I'm not saying that this is a perfect plan by any stretch, but it is an intriguing possibility if the KHL has any north american aspirations.
I'd imagine if the KHL started sniffing around southern Ontario the NHL would throw up an expansion team pretty quick. I think people overlook this, but while the NHL salary cap is a huge boost to the KHL for poaching players, NHL expansion would be a huge short term counter to this. Expand by two teams and all of a sudden you have $100-$150 million dollars in extra player salaries that needs to be spent, and those players have to come from somewhere...

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07-14-2013, 09:53 PM
  #142
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You say you do not want to have teams where its Ribery + Robben then a bunch of nobodies.

What makes you think that would be a bunch of nobodies?
As one person I replied to correctly said, only Big 4 teams have a shot at winning EPL.

Suppose we have an opposite ideal where pretty much every of the 20 teams has a shot at winning EPL. To achieve that, we will obviously need to take the superstars currently concentrated in Big 4 and spread them more or less equally over all 20 teams. That would mean that, in this ideal world, 75-80% of players on each Big 4 team will go play for other EPL teams, and will be replaced by players from other EPL teams.

To make the thought experiment easier, imagine a team that is 25% Arsenal and 75% Stoke City. That would be a representative team from the imaginary version of EPL, in which "every team has a shot". I would think that such an imaginary team would be correctly described as "Podolsky+Walcott+some other guys"

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07-15-2013, 01:24 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by HamiltonFan View Post
From the article:

"Of the 24 states that house professional sports teams, 20 collect income tax on their home and visiting teams."

4 of the 24 states don't collect income tax because they are income tax free states. It's pretty straight forward, I don't know why you don't get it. In an athletes 80 game schedule, 40 of the games (home games) are taxed at the home state income tax rate, while the remaining 40 away games are taxed at the various rates of the states of the away games. It goes without saying that the home state can't charge an additional home state income tax on the 40 away games that are already taxed by the away states. In fact, this is confirmed by the very quote that you provided:

"Most states give credit for taxes paid elsewhere, meaning Pennsylvania loses revenue when the Penguins play in Buffalo but makes it up when the Sabres visit Consol Energy Cente"
It says nowhere states DON'T tax their own teams when they play away games. I don't know where you got the idea you aren't taxed on your total income in your home state. That tax credit just reimburses what you pay to the other state. If the home tax rate is higher you can still get tagged for the home state as well. The mere fact that it says "most" states provide tax credits means not ALL do.

Quote:
You cannot avoid state income taxes simply by working in a tax-free state. You have to also be a resident of that state. If you are a resident of the other 41 states that have an income tax, you'll have to pay tax to your home state on all of your income regardless of where you earned it, including income you made in a state without an income tax.

Similarly, if you are a resident of a tax-free state, and have worked in a taxing state, you still have to pay taxes to the state where you worked. Unless you are working in a reciprocal state, you will have to pay taxes to the state where you earned your income. You would file a nonresident return to pay these taxes.
http://taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes...-tax-myths.htm

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07-15-2013, 03:13 AM
  #144
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We have never had salary cap in soccer, have we?
No but talent used to be spread around a lot more evenly than it is now if only because teams were limited to just 2 foreign players. Saying salary caps would result in 200 teams with world class players is a ridiculous overexaggeration. I mean that's more than 10 entire leagues.

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Well, for example, I have never seen Podolski play for Koeln despite liking his play for Bayern and team Germany. If soccer had worked like NHL does, he would have been still stuck there, I think.
Cologne have played 4 seasons in the second division since Podolski first signed there, no salary cap would have forced a player like him to stay there had he wanted to leave.

Also you had every opportunity to follow him with Cologne, you just choose not to. Your argument is similar to the people who say 'I don't want good players to sign in the KHL because I don't follow that league'. Well, do follow that league and problem solved

At least some of the people who say that can point to the fact the KHL is not readily available where they live, you cannot even say that.

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07-15-2013, 08:20 AM
  #145
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As one person I replied to correctly said, only Big 4 teams have a shot at winning EPL.

Suppose we have an opposite ideal where pretty much every of the 20 teams has a shot at winning EPL. To achieve that, we will obviously need to take the superstars currently concentrated in Big 4 and spread them more or less equally over all 20 teams. That would mean that, in this ideal world, 75-80% of players on each Big 4 team will go play for other EPL teams, and will be replaced by players from other EPL teams.

To make the thought experiment easier, imagine a team that is 25% Arsenal and 75% Stoke City. That would be a representative team from the imaginary version of EPL, in which "every team has a shot". I would think that such an imaginary team would be correctly described as "Podolsky+Walcott+some other guys"
If there was a cap in the EPL or any individual league, the league would have more parody. It would be more balanced. Yes. But at the same time, the league will start to lose superstars who will want bigger paychecks in differ leagues like Bundesliga or Serie A.

So it would never work.

Why no European League needs a salary cap is because the best teams fight in the European Championship anyway. Or the Europa. So yes, you have a large difference between a team like Manchester United or Newcastle. But Manchester United vs Real Madrid? Or Juventus vs Bayern.

Let the best teams from every country take on one another. That is the top level "playoffs" if you will.


But dont act like there are no big time players in the teams outside the BIG FOur. The Big four is Arsenal, Liverpool, Man U, Chelsea. Yet your forgetting, Tottenham, Everton and Man City. I mean, look at QPR. The worst team in the EPL, being relegated. They have several key players and world class players.

Plus, imagine having a cap in the EPL. So you have a guy like Wayne Rooney being put down to like Blackburn Rovers. What if the Rovers were relegated. Wayne Rooney would opt to leave immediately. Or anyone such.

But it also works in soccer because EVERY COUNTRY plays the sport. Every country has several leagues and an international team. Every country has a superstar. Even a country like Jamaica or New Zealand. They might not be a Messi... but they will serve your team right. So this huge abundance of talent world wide, creates balance in the competitions.


EPL, German, Italy... These three best leagues in the world are very unpredictable.

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07-15-2013, 08:23 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
It says nowhere states DON'T tax their own teams when they play away games. I don't know where you got the idea you aren't taxed on your total income in your home state. That tax credit just reimburses what you pay to the other state. If the home tax rate is higher you can still get tagged for the home state as well. The mere fact that it says "most" states provide tax credits means not ALL do.



http://taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes...-tax-myths.htm
My apologies, you are correct.

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07-15-2013, 11:37 PM
  #147
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Also you had every opportunity to follow him with Cologne, you just choose not to. Your argument is similar to the people who say 'I don't want good players to sign in the KHL because I don't follow that league'. Well, do follow that league and problem solved

At least some of the people who say that can point to the fact the KHL is not readily available where they live, you cannot even say that.
The issue is always the cost, sure. I have limited time I can allot to watching soccer, I watch 1-2 games a week, on average, and that includes "must-see" games like many Champions League games, late stages of Europa League playoffs, El Classico, etc. On the dates not taken by those, when I was just looking for a game to watch, I chose not to watch FC Koeln, indeed. Probably I decided that watching something like MU - Tottenham would be a better use of my time than watching two bottomfeeders in Bundesliga just for Podolski. Probably I was a bit unlucky in this regard, if I had an open evening when Koeln played Bayern, I would have watched.

What I am saying is that, for me as a casual viewer, the more the star players are concentrated in big teams, the better. I get to see more great players in the same amount of games without going out of my way and sitting through a relatively bad game for just one guy.

P.S. In case you were wondering, Fox Soccer, the default soccer channel in US, does not broadcast Bundesliga. Bundesliga used to be on GolTV, which was about the price of CenterIce, but now GolTV has dropped English feed, it is only in Spanish. So yeah, I do currently have an excuse for not caring about non-top teams from Germany and for being happy Arsenal spent big money on Podolski without having to think about salary cap, foreign players limit or whatnot.

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07-16-2013, 06:04 AM
  #148
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IMO if the KHL wants to become a serious rival to the NHL it needs to expand to Sweden, Finland, Germany, Switzerland etc. and establish at least one or two teams in each of those countries to turn into some kind of European super league.

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07-16-2013, 06:24 AM
  #149
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IMO if the KHL wants to become a serious rival to the NHL it needs to expand to Sweden, Finland, Germany, Switzerland etc. and establish at least one or two teams in each of those countries to turn into some kind of European super league.
Jokerit will join in 2014/2015 season so Finland is covered.

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07-16-2013, 07:16 AM
  #150
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The issue is always the cost, sure. I have limited time I can allot to watching soccer, I watch 1-2 games a week, on average, and that includes "must-see" games like many Champions League games, late stages of Europa League playoffs, El Classico, etc. On the dates not taken by those, when I was just looking for a game to watch, I chose not to watch FC Koeln, indeed. Probably I decided that watching something like MU - Tottenham would be a better use of my time than watching two bottomfeeders in Bundesliga just for Podolski. Probably I was a bit unlucky in this regard, if I had an open evening when Koeln played Bayern, I would have watched.
If you purposely choose to watch the same teams over and over again rather than watching a team like Cologne every once in a while, you really only have yourself to blame if one or two players escape your attention.

I never really understood this fetish for individual players anyway. To me, back when almost half the world cup was unknown players, that only made it even more interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuluss View Post
Bundesliga used to be on GolTV, which was about the price of CenterIce, but now GolTV has dropped English feed, it is only in Spanish.
Who cares what language the commentators speak, I mean it's not like they ever say anything interesting now do they?

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