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Where does the Leafs Top 6 rank in the NHL?

View Poll Results: Leafs top 6 vs. NHL
Top 5 44 9.71%
Top 10 140 30.91%
Top 15 170 37.53%
Below top 15 99 21.85%
Voters: 453. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-14-2013, 08:09 PM
  #226
bobbyt91
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Originally Posted by Oiltankjob 4 93 64 View Post
Yes we should just accept Leaf fans as true assessments of players they are known for non bias But im sure boobyt911 from kitchner is in agreement with TORNSH FAN
Who is TORNSH FAN? and why are you sure we would be in agreement?

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07-14-2013, 09:42 PM
  #227
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It's pretty funny how underrated Perron is. It's alright though, I know in a couple of months Oiler fans will start hyping him hardcore.

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07-14-2013, 10:32 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Last 2 Years:

W J.Lupul (30): 82gms, 36gls, 85pts, 141ht, 32bk, 18:07 (82gms, 36gls, 85pts, 141ht, 32bk)
C P.Datsyuk (35): 117gms, 34gls, 116pts, 107ht, 61bk, 19:49 (82gms, 24gls, 81pts, 75ht, 43bk)

W P.Kessel (25): 130gms, 57gls, 134pts, 28ht, 44bk, 19:57 (82gms, 36gls, 85pts, 18ht, 28bk)
W H.Zetterberg (33): 128gms, 33gls, 117pts, 65ht, 36bk, 20:05 (82gms, 21gls, 75pts, 42ht, 23bk)

C N.Kadri (23): 69gms, 23gls, 51pts, 87ht, 27bk, 15:29 (82gms, 27gls, 61pts, 103ht, 32bk)
W J.Franzen (34): 118gms, 43gls, 87pts, 103ht, 47bk, 17:50 (82gms, 30gls, 61pts, 72ht, 33bk)

C T.Bozak (27): 119gms, 30gls, 75pts, 182ht, 57bk, 19:41 (82gms, 21gls, 52pts, 125ht, 39bk)
C S.Weiss (30): 97gms, 21gls, 61pts, 98ht, 71bk, 20:09 (82gms, 18gls, 52pts, 83ht, 60bk)

W J.VanRiemsdyk (24): 91gms, 29gls, 56pts, 92ht, 33bk, 17:15 (82gms, 26gls, 51pts, 83ht, 30bk)
W D.Alfredsson (41): 122gms, 37gls, 85pts, 80ht, 61bk, 19:06 (82gms, 25gls, 57pts, 54ht, 41bk)

W D.Clarkson (29): 128gms, 45gls, 70pts, 253ht, 25bk, 16:50 (82gms, 29gls, 45pts, 162ht, 16bk)
W J.Abdelkader (26): 129gms, 18gls, 35pts, 268ht, 55bk, 13:15 (82gms, 11gls, 22pts, 170ht, 35bk)
So... is this supposed to agree or disagree with me? I'll try and figure it out by putting the players back together the way I had them (I did leave off Lupul on my initial list, because I forgot him due to his injury. I have inserted him in Kulemin's place opposite Alfredsson).

C P.Datsyuk (35): 117gms, 34gls, 116pts, 107ht, 61bk, 19:49 (82gms, 24gls, 81pts, 75ht, 43bk)
C N.Kadri (23): 69gms, 23gls, 51pts, 87ht, 27bk, 15:29 (82gms, 27gls, 61pts, 103ht, 32bk)
Datsyuk>Kadri
Datsyuk is obviously significantly better offensively, and also defensively.

C T.Bozak (27): 119gms, 30gls, 75pts, 182ht, 57bk, 19:41 (82gms, 21gls, 52pts, 125ht, 39bk)
C S.Weiss (30): 97gms, 21gls, 61pts, 98ht, 71bk, 20:09 (82gms, 18gls, 52pts, 83ht, 60bk)
Weiss>Bozak
Similar results in all listed statistics, as well as in faceoffs. Except one of these men plays with Phil Kessel, and one of them has been his team's best player for years.

W P.Kessel (25): 130gms, 57gls, 134pts, 28ht, 44bk, 19:57 (82gms, 36gls, 85pts, 18ht, 28bk)
W H.Zetterberg (33): 128gms, 33gls, 117pts, 65ht, 36bk, 20:05 (82gms, 21gls, 75pts, 42ht, 23bk)
Zetterberg>Kessel
Kessel has a slight advantage in PPG, but the defensive and physical gap is easily made up and then substantially exceeded.

W J.Franzen (34): 118gms, 43gls, 87pts, 103ht, 47bk, 17:50 (82gms, 30gls, 61pts, 72ht, 33bk)
W J.VanRiemsdyk (24): 91gms, 29gls, 56pts, 92ht, 33bk, 17:15 (82gms, 26gls, 51pts, 83ht, 30bk)
Franzen>JVR
Franzen is clearly the more productive scoring winger.

W J.Lupul (30): 82gms, 36gls, 85pts, 141ht, 32bk, 18:07 (82gms, 36gls, 85pts, 141ht, 32bk)
W D.Alfredsson (41): 122gms, 37gls, 85pts, 80ht, 61bk, 19:06 (82gms, 25gls, 57pts, 54ht, 41bk)
Alfredsson<Lupul
Lupul has done quite well and meshes well with Kessel and Bozak, while Alfredsson's offensive game has diminished. Small advantage for Lupul.

W D.Clarkson (29): 128gms, 45gls, 70pts, 253ht, 25bk, 16:50 (82gms, 29gls, 45pts, 162ht, 16bk)
W J.Abdelkader (26): 129gms, 18gls, 35pts, 268ht, 55bk, 13:15 (82gms, 11gls, 22pts, 170ht, 35bk)
Abdelkader=<Clarkson

Clarkson scored a significant number of points on the PP and played a ton of time there, while Abdelkader did neither. At ES they were similar, with Clarkson having a small offensive advantage but having played the entire year on a scoring line while Abdelkader split the season between checking lines and scoring lines.

The small advantages Lupul and Clarkson have do not make up for the others. Not even close.

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07-14-2013, 10:54 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So... is this supposed to agree or disagree with me? I'll try and figure it out by putting the players back together the way I had them (I did leave off Lupul on my initial list, because I forgot him due to his injury. I have inserted him in Kulemin's place opposite Alfredsson).

C P.Datsyuk (35): 117gms, 34gls, 116pts, 107ht, 61bk, 19:49 (82gms, 24gls, 81pts, 75ht, 43bk)
C N.Kadri (23): 69gms, 23gls, 51pts, 87ht, 27bk, 15:29 (82gms, 27gls, 61pts, 103ht, 32bk)
Datsyuk>Kadri
Datsyuk is obviously significantly better offensively, and also defensively.

C T.Bozak (27): 119gms, 30gls, 75pts, 182ht, 57bk, 19:41 (82gms, 21gls, 52pts, 125ht, 39bk)
C S.Weiss (30): 97gms, 21gls, 61pts, 98ht, 71bk, 20:09 (82gms, 18gls, 52pts, 83ht, 60bk)
Weiss>Bozak
Similar results in all listed statistics, as well as in faceoffs. Except one of these men plays with Phil Kessel, and one of them has been his team's best player for years.

W P.Kessel (25): 130gms, 57gls, 134pts, 28ht, 44bk, 19:57 (82gms, 36gls, 85pts, 18ht, 28bk)
W H.Zetterberg (33): 128gms, 33gls, 117pts, 65ht, 36bk, 20:05 (82gms, 21gls, 75pts, 42ht, 23bk)
Zetterberg>Kessel
Kessel has a slight advantage in PPG, but the defensive and physical gap is easily made up and then substantially exceeded.

W J.Franzen (34): 118gms, 43gls, 87pts, 103ht, 47bk, 17:50 (82gms, 30gls, 61pts, 72ht, 33bk)
W J.VanRiemsdyk (24): 91gms, 29gls, 56pts, 92ht, 33bk, 17:15 (82gms, 26gls, 51pts, 83ht, 30bk)
Franzen>JVR
Franzen is clearly the more productive scoring winger.

W J.Lupul (30): 82gms, 36gls, 85pts, 141ht, 32bk, 18:07 (82gms, 36gls, 85pts, 141ht, 32bk)
W D.Alfredsson (41): 122gms, 37gls, 85pts, 80ht, 61bk, 19:06 (82gms, 25gls, 57pts, 54ht, 41bk)
Alfredsson<Lupul
Lupul has done quite well and meshes well with Kessel and Bozak, while Alfredsson's offensive game has diminished. Small advantage for Lupul.

W D.Clarkson (29): 128gms, 45gls, 70pts, 253ht, 25bk, 16:50 (82gms, 29gls, 45pts, 162ht, 16bk)
W J.Abdelkader (26): 129gms, 18gls, 35pts, 268ht, 55bk, 13:15 (82gms, 11gls, 22pts, 170ht, 35bk)
Abdelkader=<Clarkson

Clarkson scored a significant number of points on the PP and played a ton of time there, while Abdelkader did neither. At ES they were similar, with Clarkson having a small offensive advantage but having played the entire year on a scoring line while Abdelkader split the season between checking lines and scoring lines.

The small advantages Lupul and Clarkson have do not make up for the others. Not even close.
I agree with most but Kessel is better than Zetterberg. Sure Zetter has more pedigree bur going forward Kessel is better and his D game is coming along quite well.

As far a Bozak goes he gets pooped on big time. He is close to Weiss if not even.

Besides even tho the leafs scored 145 to Det 124 Det is way better

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07-14-2013, 11:01 PM
  #230
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and sticking with my matchups, I'd say the only two matchups where detroit would have the advantage is Kessel/Lupul v. Datsyuk/Zetts....though even then, the toronto pair is the more dynamic offensively at the moment, both being in the top-10 in NHL PPG over the last 2 seasons....and age is on the Leafs' side. Still, Datsyuk and Zetterberg's proven all around games give Detroit's top 2 forwards the nod over toronto's top-2 forwards.

Kadri/JVR vs. Franzen/Alfie looks close over the last 2yrs, but that misses the fact that the young leafs duo were much more productive than detroit's aging pair last year, so while we might still consider them close for now, this matchup has already moved in Toronto's direction, and should continue in that direction.

Bozak and Weiss are interchangeable. Though Bozak is younger and healthier.

Clarkson v. Abdelkader is the one clear mismatch in the top-6 - Abdelkader is a good 4th liner / borderline 3rd liner masquerading as a top-6 forward. He compares more to the Leafs 4th line C McClement than to Clarkson.

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Old
07-15-2013, 12:08 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
I agree with most but Kessel is better than Zetterberg. Sure Zetter has more pedigree bur going forward Kessel is better and his D game is coming along quite well.
No. Just no. Zetterberg is one of the top few players in the league. Kessel is good, but not nearly as good as Zetterberg. Maybe if he can outscore Zetterberg by 30-40 points he can claim "better".

Of course, there's a decent chance Kessel won't even outscore Zetterberg at all this coming season.

Quote:
As far a Bozak goes he gets pooped on big time. He is close to Weiss if not even.
I like Bozak, and think he's not far behind Weiss. But there is a separation. The posted numbers don't account for the fact that Weiss played a third of this season (and no other time this year) after having had a fairly severe wrist injury.

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07-15-2013, 12:14 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
No. Just no. Zetterberg is one of the top few players in the league. Kessel is good, but not nearly as good as Zetterberg. Maybe if he can outscore Zetterberg by 30-40 points he can claim "better".

Of course, there's a decent chance Kessel won't even outscore Zetterberg at all this coming season.



I like Bozak, and think he's not far behind Weiss. But there is a separation. The posted numbers don't account for the fact that Weiss played a third of this season (and no other time this year) after having had a fairly severe wrist injury.
So what is it that makes Zetter 40 points worth better than Kessel?? look who the guy plays with and who he is coached by.

Not saying Zetter isnt a great player but he still gets bonus points for his name/team etc.
IMO Kessel and Zetter are in the same class and considering Zetter is in his twilight years and Kessel is still on the upswing my money is on Kessel
Dats is soo good imagine him with Kessel.

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07-15-2013, 03:56 AM
  #233
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oh man this thread will be fun to bump when the leafs are a terrible team next year.

kadri isn't going to keep his pace, and their is only so much PP time to go around. most of the leafs top 6 put up pretty big on ice%, and it's not going to last forever (kessel is good enough to probably drive percentages to an extent, but the others clearly are not).

leafs top 6 is bottom 15, just like their team (except their goalie who they for some reason trust enough to go grab bernier when he was the least of their problems)

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07-15-2013, 04:13 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Leaf View Post
Exactly.

Points and skill wise, the Leafs top 6 has nothing on the Oilers and what they will become. But when we consider all factors (size, physical play/grit, faceoffs and defense), especially playoff matchups, I have got to give the edge to Toronto. The Oilers are in for a rude awakening when they reach the playoffs, about the importance of size and physicality in your top 6.
Who plays defensively in the leads top 6. Kadri is average but that's about it. RNH and Perron both play two way games. And for physicality, clarkson and jvr have big bodies ( bigger than any oiler) but only Clarkson plays physical (aggressive, hits) but at this point he's a 2/3 line tweener. Jvr doesn't hit much, but his body is used effectively to protect puck much like perron does. Yak and Hall hit just as much as kadri and are bigger/ similar size

Once rnh hits 205ish hell be a 'bigger' guy in the top six

And if physicality won cups the blues would be 3x champions.


Last edited by topchowda: 07-15-2013 at 04:25 AM.
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07-15-2013, 04:14 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Gritzky98 View Post
Really? How about you post yours so we can see whats actually brutal, or better yet, make a poll and see.

Hall <=Kessel


(Thats being generous, Kessel is almost 5 years older and Hall scored at a better PPG as well as bringing more to the game)

Eberle > Lupul

(Lupul has been garbage before his 82 games as a leaf, he still hasn't put up those numbers in a full season. And dont kid yourself the Leafs would trade Lupul for Eberle in a heartbear)

RNH > Kadri

(most of your fellow leafs fans agree with me here)

Yakupov > JVR

(JVR is 5 years older and scored a whopping one point more than Yakupov last year)

Gagner > Bozak

(Gagner is a top 6 center, Bozak is not)

Perron < Clarkson

(Clarkson brings more grit but Perron isnt on a albatross of a contract, was happy the Oilers didn't sign him, but Ill give Clarkson the slight edge here)
No real analysis here. Classic HF statwatching.

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07-15-2013, 04:25 AM
  #236
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lol, classic hf Leafs hatred in this thread. 2/3 of the board doesn't think they have a top 10 top 6 when they were 6th in the league in GF this year and 10th the year before (pre-JVR and Kadri).

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07-15-2013, 04:28 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by TMLblue75 View Post
No real analysis here. Classic HF statwatching.
Which do you disagree with. I think perron will probably be better then clarkson in 1-2 years. All he has going for him is size and FA frenzy allure. Perron is still young ( albeit injury concerns too)

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07-15-2013, 05:23 AM
  #238
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Originally Posted by MastuhNinks View Post
lol, classic hf Leafs hatred in this thread. 2/3 of the board doesn't think they have a top 10 top 6 when they were 6th in the league in GF this year and 10th the year before (pre-JVR and Kadri).
Yes, because it's all about offense.

Sens were 4th 2 years ago in scoring, you wanna see their top 6?

Greening/Butler-Spezza-Michalek
Foligno-Turris-Alfredsson

Would you take that over your current top 6? Didn't think so.

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07-15-2013, 01:53 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Who plays defensively in the leads top 6. Kadri is average but that's about it. RNH and Perron both play two way games. And for physicality, clarkson and jvr have big bodies ( bigger than any oiler) but only Clarkson plays physical (aggressive, hits) but at this point he's a 2/3 line tweener. Jvr doesn't hit much, but his body is used effectively to protect puck much like perron does. Yak and Hall hit just as much as kadri and are bigger/ similar size

Once rnh hits 205ish hell be a 'bigger' guy in the top six

And if physicality won cups the blues would be 3x champions.
No not true. Any how in 5 years if the Oilers do not have the best top 6 in the NHL it will be a huge joke!!. Any team that has 3 1st ovr alls in the top 6 better be the best in the NHL. And the fact that they are in the same class as the crappy(hf perception) Leafs is not good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
Yes, because it's all about offense.

Sens were 4th 2 years ago in scoring, you wanna see their top 6?

Greening/Butler-Spezza-Michalek
Foligno-Turris-Alfredsson

Would you take that over your current top 6? Didn't think so.
Ottawa's game is all about D 1st. They could have 6 Gomez's up front and still get a tie lol.

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07-15-2013, 02:24 PM
  #240
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Kessel is not better than Zetterberg, come on. You guys have a good offense, quality variety. But if you expect offense to carry you far, you're going to be disappointed.

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07-15-2013, 02:29 PM
  #241
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lol, classic hf Leafs hatred in this thread. 2/3 of the board doesn't think they have a top 10 top 6 when they were 6th in the league in GF this year and 10th the year before (pre-JVR and Kadri).
You're misinterpreting the question. Has nothing to do with "Leafs hatred", I don't mind them at all and I put them outside the Top 10.

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07-15-2013, 02:35 PM
  #242
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Top 15, pretty overrated, it's still good, but I'd like to see where there defense ranks.

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07-15-2013, 03:02 PM
  #243
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This thread reminds me of a few years ago with Leaf fans raving about how great their defence was going to be with Komisarek and Beauchemin and Phaneuf and Kaberle and Schenn and how it would be a top 5 defence for sure while most other fans thought it would be mediocre at best. - How'd that work out?

I have a tough time thinking of 5 teams with top 6's worse than the Leafs. As far as some of these comparisons - I'd take the Oilers, Avalanche, Hurricanes, Senators, Wild etc... over the Leafs.

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07-15-2013, 03:18 PM
  #244
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This thread reminds me of a few years ago with Leaf fans raving about how great their defence was going to be with Komisarek and Beauchemin and Phaneuf and Kaberle and Schenn and how it would be a top 5 defence for sure while most other fans thought it would be mediocre at best. - How'd that work out?

I have a tough time thinking of 5 teams with top 6's worse than the Leafs. As far as some of these comparisons - I'd take the Oilers, Avalanche, Hurricanes, Senators, Wild etc... over the Leafs.
U have formed your opinion and it appears with a statement like "I have a tough time thinking of 5 teams with top 6's worse than the Leafs" you have a bias.

Off the top of my head Flames, Phoenix, Jackets, Tampa, Wild, Preds, Sabres, Devils, Stars, Panthers, Jets, Isles, Habs, Oilers(now), Ducks and the Blues IMO are all just barely to majorly below the Leafs top 6 AS A UNIT!!

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07-15-2013, 04:11 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by bobbyt911 View Post
U have formed your opinion and it appears with a statement like "I have a tough time thinking of 5 teams with top 6's worse than the Leafs" you have a bias.

Off the top of my head Flames, Phoenix, Jackets, Tampa, Wild, Preds, Sabres, Devils, Stars, Panthers, Jets, Isles, Habs, Oilers(now), Ducks and the Blues IMO are all just barely to majorly below the Leafs top 6 AS A UNIT!!
I should have added the caveat 'definitely' worse than the Leafs
I'm glad you added 'as a unit' as most of what I saw in this thread was people making player to player comparisons.

Outside of Kessel the other 5 have question marks around them and need to produce for another year before I put them in the top half of the league. Will Kadri really be a PPG player as a sophmore? Can JVR show some consistency? Can Lupul stay healthy? Can Bozak cement a #1 line. Can Clarkson possibly live up to his contract and actually put up some points?

I can see your argument for those teams but even out of those I can make easy arguments for choosing the Isle, Ducks, Blues, Oilers, Tampa, Wild, Habs and possibly Stars, Jackets, and Jets.

Doesn't mean I'm showing bias against the Leafs anymore than I'm showing bias against the Flames, Coyotes, Predators, Sabres, Panthers for thinking they have worse top 6's than the Leafs. (I have no idea what to think of the Devils.)

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07-15-2013, 05:25 PM
  #246
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If we look at last 2yrs paces, and then add up all the paced goals from the top-6, we get these goal totals:


PIT: 195
TOR: 175
TBL: 165
PHI: 163
EDM: 158
OTT: 152
CHI: 150
BOS: 149
VAN: 143
NYI: 143
LAK: 142
SJS: 139
MTL: 137
WAS: 136
DET: 129

and that's all the teams I could be bothered to do for now.

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07-15-2013, 07:27 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
If we look at last 2yrs paces, and then add up all the paced goals from the top-6, we get these goal totals:


PIT: 195
TOR: 175
TBL: 165
PHI: 163
EDM: 158
OTT: 152
CHI: 150
BOS: 149
VAN: 143
NYI: 143
LAK: 142
SJS: 139
MTL: 137
WAS: 136
DET: 129

and that's all the teams I could be bothered to do for now.

Wow, thats a lot of goals for a set of forwards most consider to be top 15 or worse. Maybe they should focus on the rest of their game instead of individual stats, win at least 1 playoff series, actually EARN moving up to top 15/top 10 and leafs fans would be happy because the rest of hfboards could validate them by agreeing their team rocks when voting in a poll.

despite goal totals still top 15 or worse

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07-15-2013, 07:38 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
If we look at last 2yrs paces, and then add up all the paced goals from the top-6, we get these goal totals:


PIT: 195
TOR: 175
TBL: 165
PHI: 163
EDM: 158
OTT: 152
CHI: 150
BOS: 149
VAN: 143
NYI: 143
LAK: 142
SJS: 139
MTL: 137
WAS: 136
DET: 129

and that's all the teams I could be bothered to do for now.
You forgot Winnipeg!!

Little + Ladd + Wheeler + Kane + Jokinen + Setoguchi = 222 goals the last 2 years. (not paced...just actual goals scored)

Wpg is number 1......suck it pitts.

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07-15-2013, 08:38 PM
  #249
MoreGore
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As a Sens fan I have to side with the Leafs in that they do indeed have a very competent top 6.

I put them top 10 and I think it is safe to say that they are, and there is more than ample evidence to back it up.

The Leafs made the playoffs last year, which puts them into the top 16. What got them there? Defense? Goaltending? depth? Nope, it was the work of the top 6 forwards. Just based on that fact alone, they are doing very well in the top 6.

We all know that the #1C position is weak, but the other 5 spots are all well taken care of.

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10-31-2013, 01:47 AM
  #250
A1LeafNation
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They look top 5 to me.

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