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Should Jay McClement have won the Selke Trophy?

View Poll Results: Should Jay McClement have won the Selke Trophy?
Yes 20 12.35%
No 113 69.75%
Towes was still the right choice 29 17.90%
Voters: 162. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-13-2013, 03:01 PM
  #26
pdd
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Originally Posted by worstfaceoffmanever View Post
Voted no because I think Boyd Gordon should have won it, but I agree with the idea behind the OP. IMO, the Selke is should recognize guys like Gainey, Carbonneau, Draper, Madden, and, to a lesser extent, Dirk Graham and Jere Lehtinen. That's not to say a player can't put up high point totals and still be an exceptional defensive player - Rod Brind'Amour is a prime example of that - but it seems the award is given out less for actual defensive play and more for reputation over a prolonged period of time.
Brind'Amour wasn't an "exceptional defensive forward" when he was putting up high point totals.

He won the Selke in 2006 and 2007 because he was a good defensive player throughout his career and had started playing more defensively. He was NOT the best defensive forward. Jere Lehtinen was.

As for McClement... he is good at what he does, which is play a grinding game and PK well. Drew Miller does the same.

But let's get something straight here. If I have the option of putting McClement on the ice against Toews/Crosby/Stamkos/whoever or putting out Henrik Zetterberg... who am I picking? Zetterberg. No brainer. The only guy who can compete with Zetterberg in his ability to shadow an opposing player and shut him down? Bergeron.

And McClement isn't better at any other aspect of defense than those two. Pavel Datsyuk plays more of a "prevent" zone style defense as compared to Zetterberg and Bergeron's shadow; All are extremely effective. And all are better defensively than McClement. And that's before you consider possession of the puck as a defensive tool (if you have the puck, and keep the puck, then the opponent DOESN'T have the puck. Zetterberg and Helm have both killed penalties in the past largely by "ragging the puck" in the neutral and offensive zone).

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07-13-2013, 03:09 PM
  #27
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I miss McC a ton as he would've been the absolutely perfect 4th C to compliment our kids who could step up if someone got hurt and we stacked our top 6 with errybody left over. But he doesn't have the offense to compare his two way play to the likes of Toews and Bergeron.

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07-13-2013, 03:11 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
He had the worst shot differential in the league at 5v5 for players who played at least 20 games in the season.
Pretty open and shut then.

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07-13-2013, 03:13 PM
  #29
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No, he was right around where he should have been with the award in its current incarnation.

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07-13-2013, 03:14 PM
  #30
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Should Kessel have won the Conn Smythe for not being terrible against the Bruins?

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07-13-2013, 03:15 PM
  #31
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Just because Toews scores points doesn't mean he's worse defensively. Same goes with Datsyuk. The reason they score more points is because of their skill and they use that same advantage in the defensive zone.

Plus puck possession is very important.

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07-13-2013, 03:23 PM
  #32
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Defensive can mean a lot of different things. On ice shot differential, Takeaways, shot blocking etc...

Gretzky by all accounts was amazing defensively because he controlled the flow of the game and almost always retained possession of the puck as long as he was on the ice.

4th line grinders are certainly unheralded but they don't usually factor into the other facets of the game outside of shutting a line down or fighting.

Toews has a huge benefit of playing with Hossa though. Hossa in his own right is a Selke player.

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Old
07-13-2013, 03:37 PM
  #33
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Last edited by burf: 07-13-2013 at 07:44 PM.
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07-13-2013, 03:47 PM
  #34
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It's a two-way forward trophy now.

McClement is more or less a one-way forward.

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07-13-2013, 03:47 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burf View Post
And he only played 38 games.
Actually McClement played in all 48 games this past season.

2012-13 Toronto Maple Leafs. Games played:48 Goals:8 Assists:9 Points:17 Peanlty minutes:11 & Even Plus/Minus raiting.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=50112

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07-13-2013, 03:54 PM
  #36
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PK Subban was on the top PK unit in 2011-2012 and we finished 2nd with 88.6%. In 2012-2013 he played way less on it and we finished 23rd with 79.8%. I guess Leaf fans will have to admit that Subban is the best defensive D in the league to say that McClement should win the Selke.

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Old
07-13-2013, 03:57 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
By the actual definition, Yes.

But players who put up better numbers will always get more of a look cause they're adequate defensively and provide more flash if you like.


I'm not to bothered really, I think he came 6th in voting so it's not like it went unnoticed.
Agreed.

The Frank J. Selke Trophy is awarded annually to the National Hockey League forward who demonstrates the most skill in the defensive component of the game.

By the actual definition of what the trophy is supposed to represent then yes you can make a strong case for McClement. However everyone knows that you won't win the trophy unless you produce offense at a good clip too.

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07-13-2013, 04:03 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burf View Post
He also played the easiest competition of anyone on the leafs.

This thread is pretty laughable. As is the fact that he got any votes for the Selke.

e: And he only played 38 games.
Actually he had the second highest Corsi QoC out of Leafs forwards and played 100% of the games (i.e. 48) as well as playing the most PK minutes out of anyone in the whole NHL not to mention the direct correlation of the Leafs PK moving from 28th in the league in 2011-12 to 2nd in the league in 12-13.

I'd suggest actually watching the man play before making inane remarks like that.

With that said, the Selke has strayed far from its original meaning from the days when guys like Bob Gainey and Carbonneau were winning it. Those guys were defensive monsters and didn't put up a ton of points to win it. It seems like the Selke is more and more about 'Who's the best defensive player out of the top offensive players'.

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07-13-2013, 04:10 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Thallis View Post
This isn't a question regarding what it's become. Points are absolutely irrelevant in this discussion.
You think McClement is a better defensive player than Bergeron?

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07-13-2013, 04:12 PM
  #40
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No. Toews deserved it this year, he was truly the best defensive forward and the metrics proved it too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
Actually he had the second highest Corsi QoC out of Leafs forwards and played 100% of the games (i.e. 48) as well as playing the most PK minutes out of anyone in the whole NHL not to mention the direct correlation of the Leafs PK moving from 28th in the league in 2011-12 to 2nd in the league in 12-13.

I'd suggest actually watching the man play before making inane remarks like that.

With that said, the Selke has strayed far from its original meaning from the days when guys like Bob Gainey and Carbonneau were winning it. Those guys were defensive monsters and didn't put up a ton of points to win it. It seems like the Selke is more and more about 'Who's the best defensive player out of the top offensive players'.
Don't forget that McClement also had the lowest offensive zone starts, less than 30% even, at 27.9.

Saying McClement faced easy competition is one of the stupidest things I've heard, that's for sure.

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07-13-2013, 04:16 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
No. Toews deserved it this year, he was truly the best defensive forward and the metrics proved it too
That would be Bergeron actually.

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07-13-2013, 04:17 PM
  #42
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I am a full supporter of whatever boasts people make about Jay McClement, this one is no exception. The Selke trophy is a sham and has been for a considerable number of years.

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07-13-2013, 04:18 PM
  #43
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Your opponent throws out their best line.

You have the option to put out Jay McClement or Patrice Bergeron to go against them.

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07-13-2013, 04:20 PM
  #44
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I don't think he should have won it. He had a stellar season and in my opinion was the biggest reason for the turnaround of Toronto's PK. Something many people forget is that not only has that unit been terribad for the past few years, but it was horrendous for the first month or two of this past season as well. To go from bottom five to number two before the end of a season is something to appreciate.

But no, he didn't deserve the Selke. People do guys like Toews, Backes and Datsyuk a disservice by suggesting that because they are not strictly defensive forwards they wouldn't deserve the Selke. Fact is, the trophy has not been awarded to an all defense/no offense forward in twenty years.

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07-13-2013, 04:26 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Your opponent throws out their best line.

You have the option to put out Jay McClement or Patrice Bergeron to go against them.
I'd choose McClement 8 times out of 10. Not to say that I feel Bergeron isn't as good defensively. I just feel that McClement can do a great job in his own right, and this frees up Bergeron to take on a more offensive role.

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07-13-2013, 04:29 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GranvilleIsland View Post
Should Kessel have won the Conn Smythe for not being terrible against the Bruins?
After seeing what every other team's top offensive stars managed against Boston... Yes.

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07-13-2013, 04:29 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Ace14 View Post
I'd choose McClement 8 times out of 10. Not to say that I feel Bergeron isn't as good defensively. I just feel that McClement can do a great job in his own right, and this frees up Bergeron to take on a more offensive role.
You put out your best defensive forward, and that is Bergeron 10 out of 10 times. They aren't in the same class of defensive forwards. This thread is a joke.

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07-13-2013, 04:29 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeddarRants View Post
Your opponent throws out their best line.

You have the option to put out Jay McClement or Patrice Bergeron to go against them.
I put out Jay McClement when possible to preserve Bergeron for offensive starts when he is best suited.

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07-13-2013, 04:37 PM
  #49
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No he shouldn't have.

I agree that the Selke is usually awarded based on things that shouldn't factor much into it (offensive output), but even if it were awarded purely based on defensive prowess, McClement still shouldn't have won it.

Yes, he's an amazing penalty killer and a good defensive forward, but his play 5vs5 still has a few holes defensively. His goals against/minute ratio was quite bad, shot differential was even worse, and quality of competition was under 1.000 (as in worse than average). That doesn't sound like a Selke winner to me.

Guys like Bergeron, Toews or Kopitar put up more points than him, but those who watch them regularly know that they're also awesome defensively. Just because a guy like Bergeron puts up points doesn't mean he cheats defensively, I'd even be inclined to say that defensively he's the best forward in the game. Him also putting up points doesn't change that.

McClement is a good defensive forward and I'd love him on the Wild, but he wasn't the best forward defensively last season. Saying that he was just seems like homerism to me.

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07-13-2013, 04:40 PM
  #50
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86% No
14% Yes

Pretty definitive in my opinion, the third poll choice is redundant and makes this look closer than it really is. Also lets be real here, Bergeron > McClement defensively. Not only because he can shut down the other teams absolute best but can also score. If you choose McClement over Bergeron in any situation you're going with the inferior player whichois why people like Campbell/McClement/etc. don't win the Selke.

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