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Old
07-31-2013, 03:27 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by ericnut View Post
Please. We have plenty of $ coming off the books after this season. Souray's contract is a nonissue. Same for Allen. But Allen sucks, that's the difference.
Those two players were moving in completely different directions in the latter part of the season. I personally expect more of that type of quality of play from both in an 82 game season. Souray just can't be trusted to stay healthy or consistently good for even 50 games, he's just lost too much in his legs.

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07-31-2013, 03:40 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
So you take some salary back and instead of freeing up 3.5 million, you only free up 2 million. And what's more, that might theoretically be a vet defenseman who might help fill Souray's gap part time.

The bottom line is I think you're making up all sorts of minor objections which don't really matter. All these things are minor problems that can be overcome easily if you are motivated enough. Now if you aren't motivated (and you aren't because you think Holland or Bonino are equivalent to Grabo), then I agree that it doesn't make sense. But some people do want to upgrade the offense.

Fundamentally I disagree with your salary allocation long-term. IMIO there is too much money spent on lower tier defensemen and goalies. There is almost no money spent on scoring forwards other than the twins. (And incidentally there isn't enough money spent on high-end defensemen, but hopefully that won't be necessary because Fowler or one of our prospects can fill that role eventually). 4 million for a second line player (who BTW would be our third top-6 player) does not seem like a waste to me. And actually, I would not object to signing Grabo for longer term. Say 3-4 years @ 4 million. It is about market value to fill that position, one which we have never been able to fill internally.


edit: and I still want to move Souray. A) I wouldn't characterize his whole season last year as great considering how much he tailed off (and how much he always tails off) and B) as useful as he was or wasn't last season, I think his play drops this season. But that's clearly speculation so I won't fight too hard on that.

double edit: just to clarify, I actually am not arguing that I NEED a second line center. I wouldn't mind signing one, but I'm also happy enough letting Bonino try for now. I'm more just playing devil's advocate because I don't agree with your assertion that we can't sign one.
If it were actually easy to turn Allen or Souray's salaries into a forward and that such a move would make this team better then I would support it. I'm not going to sit here and pretend like these are fantastic, invaluable players but I feel like they were acquired for a purpose and they're serving that purpose. I mean Bobby Ryan was my favorite Duck and quite valuable to the team but I also appreciate how that move has made us better (in the long-term sense). It's just unrealistic to think we can move them and free up significant cap space. We just can't. Also we'd have to get a decent d-man to replace either of them otherwise go with another rookie to replace them. No thanks.

As for how the money is being distributed I feel it reflects how Boudreau distributes his ice-time. If you look at our top-5 d-men the difference between the highest-paid and lowest is less than 2 mil. I don't think he's spending too much anywhere because all those guys get a regular shift. In terms of the bottom-6 forwards, didn't the third line prove they were worth that kind of money? This team is as balanced as it's ever been and I have no problem how much any player is getting paid.

But we are going to be relying on several players to have pretty decent offensive contributions while playing on the last year of low pay (Bonino [700k], Silfverberg[900k], Etem[870k]). If things work out those guys will at least double their salaries if not more. That contingency has to be taken into consideration. And that's what you want is to grow your talent from your prospect pool like that.

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07-31-2013, 04:05 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Static View Post
Those two players were moving in completely different directions in the latter part of the season. I personally expect more of that type of quality of play from both in an 82 game season. Souray just can't be trusted to stay healthy or consistently good for even 50 games, he's just lost too much in his legs.
Honestly I would have bought both out and resigned Lydman and gone with Vatanen.
Saved salary cap room and could have gotten a 4-5 Dman via trade or free agency if we had to.
Also, would have been good to have the $6 million in cap room for Teemu and Grabovski.

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07-31-2013, 04:46 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by justheducks View Post
Honestly I would have bought both out and resigned Lydman and gone with Vatanen.
Saved salary cap room and could have gotten a 4-5 Dman via trade or free agency if we had to.
Also, would have been good to have the $6 million in cap room for Teemu and Grabovski.
Biggest thing everyone forgets about buyouts... someone has to pay for them. Just because they are available doesn't mean the team can afford it.

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07-31-2013, 05:07 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by TheJoeMan View Post

But we are going to be relying on several players to have pretty decent offensive contributions while playing on the last year of low pay (Bonino [700k], Silfverberg[900k], Etem[870k]). If things work out those guys will at least double their salaries if not more. That contingency has to be taken into consideration. And that's what you want is to grow your talent from your prospect pool like that.
Etem still has another year left on his ELC after this one. Silfverberg will likely be on a bridge contract and unless he does something substantial shouldn't get much more than $2M. Bonino will almost certainly get a nice raise that I agree with but I think he may slot into Koivus role long term so there will be more than enough freed up when Koivu leaves.

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07-31-2013, 05:15 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by douglast5 View Post
Biggest thing everyone forgets about buyouts... someone has to pay for them. Just because they are available doesn't mean the team can afford it.
bingo

well... unfortunately

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07-31-2013, 05:15 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by douglast5 View Post
Biggest thing everyone forgets about buyouts... someone has to pay for them. Just because they are available doesn't mean the team can afford it.
Exactly. For a team that has allegedly been on an internal budget, I don't think there's any way they buy players out. I can't see the owners allowing the team to pay guys not to play for them. Especially on million dollar contracts.

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07-31-2013, 05:46 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by douglast5 View Post
Biggest thing everyone forgets about buyouts... someone has to pay for them. Just because they are available doesn't mean the team can afford it.
Shouldn't own a team if you can't afford it...

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07-31-2013, 06:07 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by justheducks View Post
Shouldn't own a team if you can't afford it...
Just because you're a billionaire doesn't mean you can operate at a loss of millions.

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07-31-2013, 06:17 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by justheducks View Post
Shouldn't own a team if you can't afford it...
Super successful types don't achieve their success by willingly accepting significant losses.

Ty

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07-31-2013, 06:31 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by justheducks View Post
Shouldn't own a team if you can't afford it...
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess Henry can afford anything he wants. The fact that you and he disagree on how to run a team may explain the difference between your bank account and his.

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07-31-2013, 06:42 PM
  #312
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Also, being worth a billion doesn't equal having a billion to spend.

Im not saying Henry doesn't have alot of money, but not as much as people probably think. Hockey is also their secondary, to there primary source of income.

He has alot to pay for besides just contracts, you don't become a millionaire by just throwing money around.

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07-31-2013, 06:58 PM
  #313
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The way I assume it would work is this. You can buy anyone out. But the buyout reduces the budget by the payout.

Effectively it means we probably buy anyone out, unless it results in real-world savings.

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07-31-2013, 07:11 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Just because you're a billionaire doesn't mean you can operate at a loss of millions.
Except if you're Ed Snider

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07-31-2013, 07:20 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by TheJoeMan View Post
If it were actually easy to turn Allen or Souray's salaries into a forward and that such a move would make this team better then I would support it. I'm not going to sit here and pretend like these are fantastic, invaluable players but I feel like they were acquired for a purpose and they're serving that purpose. I mean Bobby Ryan was my favorite Duck and quite valuable to the team but I also appreciate how that move has made us better (in the long-term sense). It's just unrealistic to think we can move them and free up significant cap space. We just can't. Also we'd have to get a decent d-man to replace either of them otherwise go with another rookie to replace them. No thanks.

As for how the money is being distributed I feel it reflects how Boudreau distributes his ice-time. If you look at our top-5 d-men the difference between the highest-paid and lowest is less than 2 mil. I don't think he's spending too much anywhere because all those guys get a regular shift. In terms of the bottom-6 forwards, didn't the third line prove they were worth that kind of money? This team is as balanced as it's ever been and I have no problem how much any player is getting paid.

But we are going to be relying on several players to have pretty decent offensive contributions while playing on the last year of low pay (Bonino [700k], Silfverberg[900k], Etem[870k]). If things work out those guys will at least double their salaries if not more. That contingency has to be taken into consideration. And that's what you want is to grow your talent from your prospect pool like that.
It's impossible to know if he could be moved or not. I think if we ate a large portion of Allen's salary, he could be moved. That's all spec though so no point in arguing that. However if Allen is moved, the logical choice IMO is Lydman. From everything I've read, it's either us or retirement. I think we could sign him for 1 million at most. Plus I think Lydman>Allen anyway. That's why I think it should be key to move Allen.

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07-31-2013, 07:28 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
Etem still has another year left on his ELC after this one. Silfverberg will likely be on a bridge contract and unless he does something substantial shouldn't get much more than $2M. Bonino will almost certainly get a nice raise that I agree with but I think he may slot into Koivus role long term so there will be more than enough freed up when Koivu leaves.
You're right. I had thought of three players that fit that distinction and I should have put down Holland. Though I doubt his next contract will be that steep unless he has a crazy rookie year which I doubt.

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07-31-2013, 07:33 PM
  #317
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If we would have bought out Allen during the last buyout period, there would've been budget savings of about $2.3 million for the next two years, and then for the next two they would be spending an additional $1.17 or so than planned.

I wouldn't rule out a buyout next summer, though. Depending on how they feel about Lindholm, of course, but buying Allen out and putting Lindholm in the line-up over him actually does save money. Something to think about.

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07-31-2013, 07:34 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
It's impossible to know if he could be moved or not. I think if we ate a large portion of Allen's salary, he could be moved. That's all spec though so no point in arguing that. However if Allen is moved, the logical choice IMO is Lydman. From everything I've read, it's either us or retirement. I think we could sign him for 1 million at most. Plus I think Lydman>Allen anyway. That's why I think it should be key to move Allen.
But that defeats the purpose. It's his whole salary that would have to be moved to make sense. Plus I feel like this isn't a team that would eat salary otherwise they'd just buy him out. Also I'm not a fan of bringing Lydman back. He's been solid with us but he's only going to get older and his injury history troubles me.

Speaking of the whole cheap owner crap others are throwing around. We're always quick to criticize a billionaire for not spending more money when they have consistently lost money every single season they've owned this team. People don't get that rich by just pissing their money away. Sometimes it's absolutely necessary like Bertuzzi but we aren't dying to remove any player in such a manner. We're lucky they've been as generous as they have been.

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07-31-2013, 07:37 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by TheJoeMan View Post
But that defeats the purpose. It's his whole salary that would have to be moved to make sense. Plus I feel like this isn't a team that would eat salary otherwise they'd just buy him out. Also I'm not a fan of bringing Lydman back. He's been solid with us but he's only going to get older and his injury history troubles me.

Speaking of the whole cheap owner crap others are throwing around. We're always quick to criticize a billionaire for not spending more money when they have consistently lost money every single season they've owned this team. People don't get that rich by just pissing their money away. Sometimes it's absolutely necessary like Bertuzzi but we aren't dying to remove any player in such a manner. We're lucky they've been as generous as they have been.
It does not defeat the purpose IMO. Even if Allen was moved out, Lydman was signed, and we saved anything, its a win IMO because I believe Lydman is better anyway. Kind of pointless though because I do agree that I don't see Murray eating any of that salary.

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Old
07-31-2013, 08:07 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by justheducks View Post
Shouldn't own a team if you can't afford it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Just because you're a billionaire doesn't mean you can operate at a loss of millions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaDucks View Post
Super successful types don't achieve their success by willingly accepting significant losses.

Ty
Quote:
Originally Posted by douglast5 View Post
Also, being worth a billion doesn't equal having a billion to spend.

Im not saying Henry doesn't have alot of money, but not as much as people probably think. Hockey is also their secondary, to there primary source of income.

He has alot to pay for besides just contracts, you don't become a millionaire by just throwing money around.
I think we're lucky to have Samueli buy the Ducks from Disney and keep it here, knowing full well he's taking a loss every year. Samueli can subsidize that loss with the revenue sharing (NHL) and the sourcing of the Honda Center for lots of events. Samueli would have been very ecstatic if he would have been rewarded the Sacramento Kings of the NBA to play at Honda Center. Why? To help minimize the loss for owning the Ducks and still make the Ducks competitive.

Think about it a bit more. If Disney wanted out so badly, then it's really bad. So this is me thanking the Samueli's for keeping the Ducks in Anaheim and still trying to improve the team on the ice and in the stadium, errr pond, err arena -center. LoL

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07-31-2013, 10:48 PM
  #321
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Shouldn't own a team if you can't afford it...
The flip side to that argument is that sports franchises shouldn't be put in places that won't actually financially support them. Like Anaheim.

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08-01-2013, 01:49 AM
  #322
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The flip side to that argument is that sports franchises shouldn't be put in places that won't actually financially support them. Like Anaheim.
I've never bought the idea of it being a community's job to "support" team financially. It's the community's job to root for the team. The team is a business, and it's their responsibility to make sure the balance sheet balances. If the Ducks don't sell enough tickets or sponsorships, then it's up to them to put the staff and programming in place to increase revenue. The "place" (ie: non-traditional hockey markets) doesn't matter near as much as a team's ownership and executive leadership. Hockey can sell anywhere with the right approach to revenue generation. That's my opinion anyhow.

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08-01-2013, 09:13 AM
  #323
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NHL.com 30 in 30

1st of August. Ducks ar up in the NHL.com 30 in 30.

According to it, we have two directors of player development. Marchant and Marchand They mix it up at some point.
-
Obviously, they issue the fact we lost Bobby. This has been talked a lot here already but i really think that we didn`t lost so much out of our lineup as Ottawa got for their. (not comparing trade components but just Bobby).
Those articles says that we have to find a new 1LW, but they obviously think that Ryan played there all last season. Well... he didn`t. Ryan was mostly a 2nd line player last season. Now we have even more matured Palmieri to put in there, new addition in Silfverberg, who`s wrist shot could be a dangerous weapon on a line with Getzlaf and even we have Penner. Won`t surprise me if beleskey won`t play any game on the top line, we have now 3 options. Or 4 if we consider Etem.

Those articles made me feel good and confident. Probably because they don`t see our defense as a problem (which conserns me the most).

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08-01-2013, 10:35 AM
  #324
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It does not defeat the purpose IMO. Even if Allen was moved out, Lydman was signed, and we saved anything, its a win IMO because I believe Lydman is better anyway. Kind of pointless though because I do agree that I don't see Murray eating any of that salary.
But we don't need to simply move some money it's the 3 and a half mil that we'd need to bring in another forward. We're in good cap position right now so there's no need to move any money around for the sake of saving money.

I'm just doubtful that Lydman hasn't already played the best hockey he's going to play for us.

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08-01-2013, 01:07 PM
  #325
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But we don't need to simply move some money it's the 3 and a half mil that we'd need to bring in another forward. We're in good cap position right now so there's no need to move any money around for the sake of saving money.

I'm just doubtful that Lydman hasn't already played the best hockey he's going to play for us.
We have some 4+ million in space. That includes ~1.5 million in bonuses that may or may not be paid out (if they aren't paid out then you get credit).

They theoretically wouldn't have to free up anything to sign Grabovski @ 4 million. If you free up only 2 million by retaining salary/taking some cap dump back for Allen/Souray/Hiller then that is probably plenty of breathing room.

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