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Old
08-02-2013, 05:54 PM
  #351
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I'm sorry, but no. I couldn't disagree more with you, Puq. There were three players who, I felt, blew it on that goal... and Allen wasn't one of them.

First off, there is Hiller. That was a play he needed to be more aggressive on. He had an opportunity to get to that puck. Admittedly, that's a risky play, but considering he went for a poke check anyway, it's not like he made the conservative play. If he gets to that puck first and sweeps it aside, the entire play ends there.

Secondly, there is Koivu. Now, this is a player I usually defend, in regards to his defensive game, but he needed to support the defensemen on that play. I understand he wanted to pay attention to the third man coming in late, but you need to adapt to the play, and it was clear from the beginning that Allen was committed to the puck carrier. Koivu needed to make a better effort to get back. Maybe he doesn't make it in time, but it still would have been the right decision. This, to me, was the lesser mistake made, but it was still a mistake that could have stopped the goal. He hung his D out to dry.

Finally and, arguably, worst of all, is Sbisa. Puck focused is a pretty good description of where he boned it, because he seemed to completely lose sight of everything else on that play. It starts with the puck being down low offensively, and Sbisa doesn't seem to realize the play is transitioning the other way. He lost track of his man completely and, worse, his man was able to get to the middle of the ice... exactly where he shouldn't be able to go. Then, when it's clear Allen was committed to the puck carrier, and that he had better position on him(than Sbisa), he failed to pick up the second man. Not only did he fail to pick up the second man, but Sbisa took himself completely out of position by ending up on the side of the net, where he was utterly useless. He had absolutely no awareness at all on that play.

Allen needed to stay on his feet, in my opinion, but I also thought he did more to try to stop the goal than any of those other three I named. That goal is not on him.

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08-02-2013, 05:55 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
For everyone sticking up for our defense - can you elaborate on why you think they compare favorably against other teams in our division other than Edmonton and Calgary? I count 2 legitimate top 4 guys on our roster (Beauchemin and Fowler) who don't have major injury/stamina concerns (Souray). We also lost our second best defensive defenseman over the offseason - Vatanen is a huge upgrade on Lydman offensively but not even in his prime is he going to come close to being as good in his own end.
Well for one, our team defense is a million times better than anything we saw under Carlyle over the past few years. It's a system where you're not waiting on one player's blown coverage to lead to a goal.

Fowler and Beauchemin are obviously top-four defenseman. No one will argue against that. Beauchemin's offensive stats could plummit and he'd be the same rock that he's been defensively. Fowler's in line for a breakout season. His game has grown tremendously, defensively, and his offensive instincts show when he does decide to take control with the puck.

I think people have really been tricked into thinking Souray over-performed based simply on the fact that "Souray-Beauchemin" was at the top of the depth chart the majority of last year. Souray's icetime was handled perfectly by Boudreau (at least before the playoffs rolled around). He had good matchups at even strength and played great on the special teams units. I don't see any reason not to expect that again this year. He's a big body who throws his weight around every now and then, but really relies on some solid stick-work and positioning. I think he's just fine anchoring a second pairing.

Allen and Sbisa both had terrible seasons. Allen's had to be the worst of his career. I'm sure Murray would agree in reference to his price tag. Allen's one and only downfall last year was his horrendous decision making. That's something that can be reviewed and banged into his head over and over. I don't expect him to be anywhere near as bad as he was. If he goes back to making smart plays, passing the puck to his partner, and hanging back at the blueline he'll be just fine on the third pairing and possibly end up on the second.

Sbisa is a wild card. I'd call him the 'x-factor' on our defense. He could either elevate or tank our defensive unit alone. What I mean is, a renewed Sbisa would garner a huge welcome party on the second pairing. The same old Sbisa will be another rotational member of the third pairing. One of these days the coaches will get it through his head that he's got to make smart desicions. We all know he has the tools to be a solid two-way defenseman, it's just a matter of him realizing it as well. Even if his mediocre play continues, he'll be dealt or a mainstay on the third pairing where he can't harm the team as much.

Lovejoy was fantastic and obviously the biggest surprise of the year on our defense. I can't begin to imagine why so many fans are claiming that he's going to be a huge letdown this year. We're not expecting top-four play from him. He played out of his role last year and even then performed solid. There's no reason to think he won't be fine on the third pairing with special teams time. Everyone's pointing back to his time in Pittsburgh, but I'd really love to invite you to watch a Penguins game. That's got to be one of the worst defensive systems in the league. Is it any surprise they've had such a turnover in defensive personnel since they won the cup? It's hard to find somebody that works when the issue isn't the players.

----------------------------------

Fowler-Beauchemin

Souray-Sbisa

Allen-Lovejoy

Vatanen

Depth looks fine to me. Just like it was last year. Especially if Sbisa and Allen step up their game. Not to mention we're not sure how well Vatanen and/or Lindholm might look in camp. Or if Murray is done making moves (although by all accounts he is). If you're getting into the "we need another top-four defenseman" territory, then I agree (if you're wanting to put our defense over the top).

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08-02-2013, 05:59 PM
  #353
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Allen needed to stay on his feet, in my opinion, but I also thought he did more to try to stop the goal than any of those other three I named. That goal is not on him.
I agree, yet Allen ended up in the net with Hiller and the game winning puck.

I don't have any issue admitting that he wasn't the cause of the downfall, but he took control of a sinking ship and sank it.

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Allen needed to stay on his feet, in my opinion.
That's my point exactly. If he stays on his feet, the chances of him clearing the puck from the crease go from zero to fifty-percent assuming he's got the awareness to get it out of there with Brunner approaching from behind. Not to mention it gives Hiller a chance to make a save on the rebound.

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08-02-2013, 06:04 PM
  #354
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I agree, yet Allen ended up in the net with Hiller and the game winning puck.

I don't have any issue admitting that he wasn't the cause of the downfall, but he took control of a sinking ship and sank it.

That's my point exactly. If he stays on his feet, the chances of him clearing the puck from the crease go from zero to fifty-percent assuming he's got the awareness to get it out of there with Brunner approaching from behind.
So, a couple of major mistakes are overshadowed by a much smaller one? Yeah, I don't think so. Sbisa and Hiller contributed far more to that goal being scored than Allen. Their mistakes were pretty inexcusable. Allen's far less so. It was a do or die play, that he probably felt he was forced to make, and the only reason he was put in that position is because of Sbisa and Hiller. They are #1 and #2 on the list of reasons why that goal was scored. Saying he single-handedly cost us that game is just not an accurate statement.

Not to mention Allen clearly tried hard to avoid contact with Hiller.

I guess I just don't see how you're so focused on that single decision, so you can point the finger at Allen, but you seem to be dismissing everything else.


Last edited by Sojourn: 08-02-2013 at 06:13 PM.
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08-02-2013, 06:05 PM
  #355
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Well for one, our team defense is a million times better than anything we saw under Carlyle over the past few years. It's a system where you're not waiting on one player's blown coverage to lead to a goal.

Fowler and Beauchemin are obviously top-four defenseman. No one will argue against that. Beauchemin's offensive stats could plummit and he'd be the same rock that he's been defensively. Fowler's in line for a breakout season. His game has grown tremendously, defensively, and his offensive instincts show when he does decide to take control with the puck.

I think people have really been tricked into thinking Souray over-performed based simply on the fact that "Souray-Beauchemin" was at the top of the depth chart the majority of last year. Souray's icetime was handled perfectly by Boudreau (at least before the playoffs rolled around). He had good matchups at even strength and played great on the special teams units. I don't see any reason not to expect that again this year. He's a big body who throws his weight around every now and then, but really relies on some solid stick-work and positioning. I think he's just fine anchoring a second pairing.

Allen and Sbisa both had terrible seasons. Allen's had to be the worst of his career. I'm sure Murray would agree in reference to his price tag. Allen's one and only downfall last year was his horrendous decision making. That's something that can be reviewed and banged into his head over and over. I don't expect him to be anywhere near as bad as he was. If he goes back to making smart plays, passing the puck to his partner, and hanging back at the blueline he'll be just fine on the third pairing and possibly end up on the second.

Sbisa is a wild card. I'd call him the 'x-factor' on our defense. He could either elevate or tank our defensive unit alone. What I mean is, a renewed Sbisa would garner a huge welcome party on the second pairing. The same old Sbisa will be another rotational member of the third pairing. One of these days the coaches will get it through his head that he's got to make smart desicions. We all know he has the tools to be a solid two-way defenseman, it's just a matter of him realizing it as well. Even if his mediocre play continues, he'll be dealt or a mainstay on the third pairing where he can't harm the team as much.

Lovejoy was fantastic and obviously the biggest surprise of the year on our defense. I can't begin to imagine why so many fans are claiming that he's going to be a huge letdown this year. We're not expecting top-four play from him. He played out of his role last year and even then performed solid. There's no reason to think he won't be fine on the third pairing with special teams time. Everyone's pointing back to his time in Pittsburgh, but I'd really love to invite you to watch a Penguins game. That's got to be one of the worst defensive systems in the league. Is it any surprise they've had such a turnover in defensive personnel since they won the cup? It's hard to find somebody that works when the issue isn't the players.

----------------------------------

Fowler-Beauchemin

Souray-Sbisa

Allen-Lovejoy

Vatanen

Depth looks fine to me. Just like it was last year. Especially if Sbisa and Allen step up their game. Not to mention we're not sure how well Vatanen and/or Lindholm might look in camp. Or if Murray is done making moves (although by all accounts he is). If you're getting into the "we need another top-four defenseman" territory, then I agree (if you're wanting to put our defense over the top).
Ok so you're just confirming what I said - we have 2 top 4 defenseman and a bunch of question marks that may or may not pan out. Also take that lineup and compare it to the other teams in the division. It doesn't stack up well with anyone other than Edmonton and Calgary. SJ you could argue is comparable but I still prefer the Sharks dmen over ours.

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08-02-2013, 06:19 PM
  #356
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That goal was on the two biggest idiots on our team - Sbisa and Hiller. They both were terrible last year, and blew it on that play too.

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08-02-2013, 06:24 PM
  #357
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That goal was on the two biggest idiots on our team - Sbisa and Hiller. They both were terrible last year, and blew it on that play too.
We need a Gibson Hype Train thread.

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08-02-2013, 06:27 PM
  #358
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He left his own man - who ends up scoring the game winning goal - only to fail at a diving pokecheck and plow into our goaltender which prevented him from making a save. True, Sbisa getting beat was the beginning of all of it, but Allen completely misplayed the situation and made it ten times worse.

So maybe you don't like Hiller going for the poke check? Well he did... and ultimately it stopped Nyquist from scoring. And if you re-watch the play again, you'll notice that he's still in a reasonable position to get over and stop Brunner from tapping the puck in before he gets knocked on his ass by his own defenseman.

So yes, maybe I'm wrong pinning the entire breakdown on him, but he's ultimately the reason we lost that game. Instead of ignorantly calling another person dumb, you should review the footage and watch him make a terrible decision that blows the game.

For the record, I don't have any sort of ill-will towards him either. I'm expecting a nice bounce back season from him because I know that last year had to be the worst of his career.
That goal is completely Sbisa's fault. Nyqvist was his man and he played him terribly. Allen was in desperation mode did what I would have done. It's unfortunate that he bumped into Hiller like that but there's no way they are in that position if Sbisa plays his man properly.

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08-02-2013, 06:28 PM
  #359
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So yes, maybe I'm wrong pinning the entire breakdown on him, but he's ultimately the reason we lost that game. Instead of ignorantly calling another person dumb, you should review the footage and watch him make a terrible decision that blows the game.
Ok, I've reviewed the footage you posted. But I, as of this moment have yet to see the part of the footage that shows Allen was the clear, ultimate reason and single handedly brought us to a loss in that game v Detroit.

If we're going to play the blame game, then Hiller should of come out ages before to clear the puck, instead he retreated into his crease and gave himself and the defence no chance of doing anything with it.

And god knows what Sbisa was doing, his man just skates straight by, causing Allen to have to leave Brunner to go after Sbisa's man, Sbisa then, as he's skating back, instead of moving across to cover Brunner and the crease area, decides to stay left and skate towards the boards, effectively taking him out of the play.

Allen's dive wasn't perfect, but it was FAR from being the reason for the goal.

But maybe I'm just ignorant.

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08-02-2013, 06:34 PM
  #360
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That goal was on the two biggest idiots on our team - Sbisa and Hiller. They both were terrible last year, and blew it on that play too.
First off I'm totally on the anti-Hiller train but Hiller wasn't terrible, he wasn't even bad at that's the problem with him. He'll be excellent for long stretches and then let in easy goals. But you can't categorize his entire season as terrible. It was above-average in fact. The fact that he constantly loses the puck drives me crazy but he also miraculously stops more than a lot of other goalies.

This play in particular I feel him trying a poke check was a bad idea but he was forced to do something drastic because Sbisa allowed Nyqvist to come in on a breakaway.

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08-02-2013, 07:34 PM
  #361
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I thought Hiller had a rough start(which seems typical of him) but was pretty good as we got further into the season. The playoff series definitely hurt my opinion of his season, though. I do agree about Hiller giving up those easy goals, though... but this isn't new. That's always been an issue with him, and it's always been my gripe with him. The real difference isn't, in my opinion, the vertigo but that he doesn't have Niedermayer and Pronger in front of him.

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08-02-2013, 08:02 PM
  #362
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That was a great breakout by Detroit with our two most inept Dmen on the ice to handle that particular situation. I like the way Soj broke it down except I would lean towards it being more of Hiller's fault for the missed poke check, which I just consider bad luck for not getting it. Koivu allowed a very easy pass to a fast forward already in stride, tough spot to put the D in.

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08-02-2013, 08:37 PM
  #363
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Hiller should have come out straight away and cleared that puck - Nyqvist doesn't have control over it until right it was right in front of Hiller. It's a routine clear for any goalie. That's the way I see it at least.

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08-02-2013, 09:52 PM
  #364
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Ok so you're just confirming what I said - we have 2 top 4 defenseman and a bunch of question marks that may or may not pan out. Also take that lineup and compare it to the other teams in the division. It doesn't stack up well with anyone other than Edmonton and Calgary. SJ you could argue is comparable but I still prefer the Sharks dmen over ours.
No, that's not at all what I'm saying. We've got three, true, solid "top-four" defensemen. Two great depth defenders in Allen and Lovejoy. And a question mark in one spot between Sbisa and the others fighting for that last position.

Let me put it this way, we've got five solid defenders that we don't need to worry about and we need the sixth defender to step up to put our defense over the top or else we'll have a middle of the road defense like we did last year. From that point on it's all about the chemistry on the ice.

I don't care about labeling defensemen "one" through "six" because that's just a silly valuation by armchair GM's. When it comes down to it, that valuation is useless anyways because of coaching. Would Brodin honestly be a number-two defenseman on every team in the league? No. Was Souray really our "number-two" defenseman last year? No. Did anyone really expect Lydman-Visnovsky to be such a dominant pairing on the ice three years ago?

You have guys that have great chemistry and excel on the ice together at even strength. You have some guys that are excellent on the power play, some on the penalty kill. The challenge is finding that chemistry, not finding a "number-x" defenseman.

We've got a good balance in my opinion. You can expect reasonable offensive production from Fowler, Beauchemin, Souray, and possibly Vatanen, Lindholm, or Sbisa. You can expect solid defensive play from Beauchemin, Lovejoy, Allen with Souray and Sbisa being wildcards.

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08-02-2013, 10:27 PM
  #365
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Hiller should have come out straight away and cleared that puck - Nyqvist doesn't have control over it until right it was right in front of Hiller. It's a routine clear for any goalie. That's the way I see it at least.
That's my take as well.

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08-02-2013, 10:46 PM
  #366
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This goal was 100% hillers fault. That was the easiest play he either over thought it or just *****ed out.

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08-02-2013, 10:55 PM
  #367
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Abdelkadar is a ****.

Shame for Lydman, one of the more underrated defenceman in the last few years for Anaheim, will never forget his first season with Lubo, what a pairing that was
Uhh...Clean hit bro. Shoulder to shoulder. Head wasnt targeted. Clearly no charge he stopped skating prior to the hit. Lydman needs to keep his head up.

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08-02-2013, 11:23 PM
  #368
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Uhh...Clean hit bro. Shoulder to shoulder. Head wasnt targeted. Clearly no charge he stopped skating prior to the hit. Lydman needs to keep his head up.
I couldn't believe that post when I read it. That poster is a moron.

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08-03-2013, 12:06 AM
  #369
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I couldn't believe that post when I read it. That poster is a moron.
Which can be said about a lot of Wings fans. Can someone explain to me how in blue hell they could possibly imagine they're ever getting the short stick when it comes to officiating?

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08-03-2013, 01:02 AM
  #370
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I hate reliving this series... Anybody else wanna get revenge on Detroit in the Finals next season?

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08-03-2013, 01:07 AM
  #371
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I hate reliving this series... Anybody else wanna get revenge on Detroit in the Finals next season?
Agreed. Hate thinking about those vomebacks and OT.

Ducks slow, struggled, inept play for mist of the playoff time, unable to control a single puck.... its kike some sort of real life nightmare.

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08-03-2013, 03:31 AM
  #372
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Uhh...Clean hit bro. Shoulder to shoulder. Head wasnt targeted. Clearly no charge he stopped skating prior to the hit. Lydman needs to keep his head up.
I'm sure Detroit won't mind Datsyuk or Zetterberg getting hit the same way then

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08-03-2013, 10:58 AM
  #373
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Not sure how Hiller messed up on that goal, he made a choice on his abilities to make the play, let the forward grab the puck and poke check him, he didnt get scored on there.

Was it Hillers fault that the puck happened to bounce off Allen (Happened many times in Anaheims favor as well), or that Allen ran into him, or that Sbisa/Koivu were both out of the play.

To blame one player is just trying to make an excuse, bunch of stuff happened that when combined all together lead to the goal, just seems like the blame is on whatever player I hate the most regardless of what actually happened.

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08-03-2013, 12:13 PM
  #374
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Not sure how Hiller messed up on that goal, he made a choice on his abilities to make the play, let the forward grab the puck and poke check him, he didnt get scored on there.

Was it Hillers fault that the puck happened to bounce off Allen (Happened many times in Anaheims favor as well), or that Allen ran into him, or that Sbisa/Koivu were both out of the play.

To blame one player is just trying to make an excuse, bunch of stuff happened that when combined all together lead to the goal, just seems like the blame is on whatever player I hate the most regardless of what actually happened.
this is pretty much how i feel about it.

abdelkader is a quick skater, agreed he misjudged it because it certainly seemd like he had the time to clear it. however, he still made the initial save AND the rebound save even as he was being taken out.. sorry the goalie can't make 3 saves before the d should be back to clear away any garbage in front of the net

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08-03-2013, 12:28 PM
  #375
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i love boudreau's high tempo offence and skill system, but we needed a guy to go after a key wing after that hit on lydman. unacceptable that nobody stepped up for an ailing teammate, even in the playoffs.

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