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Patrick Kane vs John Tavares vs Jonathan Toews vs Taylor Hall

View Poll Results: Who would you want for your team?
Patrick Kane 39 12.30%
John Tavares 162 51.10%
Jonathan Toews 87 27.44%
Taylor Hall 29 9.15%
Voters: 317. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-18-2013, 02:55 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
OK, but i dont mean just JT. what makes toews better then the other 2 competitors in this poll? Surely stats cannot prove anything going up against his fellow teammate kane.

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07-18-2013, 02:55 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
OK, but i dont mean just JT. what makes toews better then the other 2 competitors in this poll? Surely stats cannot prove anything going up against his fellow teammate kane.
Um... his defense. It's not that difficult to figure out if you watch a couple games.

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07-18-2013, 02:55 PM
  #378
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I was gonna go to the Toews cup party in Winnipeg, but now I just feel like punching him in the mouth. Boy are Hawks fans the biggest bunch of sour patch kids out there.

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07-18-2013, 02:58 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Marina View Post
Um... his defense. It's not that difficult to figure out if you watch a couple games.
i have watch games with him. thats why i have no problem saying that kane is better. Kane impacts the game so much more.

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07-18-2013, 02:58 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by rileymac79 View Post
I was gonna go to the Toews cup party in Winnipeg, but now I just feel like punching him in the mouth. Boy are Hawks fans the biggest bunch of sour patch kids out there.
I'm sure Toews will spend his nights crying into the Stanley Cup because user rileymac79 no longer likes him.

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07-18-2013, 03:00 PM
  #381
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Here's a classic definition of cherry picking. Compare the last two years of Tavares with Toews stats from 3 and 4 years ago. If the point of looking at only the last two years was to show Tavares improved as a goal scorer after his first two seasons - then let's apply the same to Toews who has a .49 GPG the past two years which shows he is improving as a goal scorer too and is actually a better goal scorer statistically than Tavares.

Yes 25 year old Toews is perhaps a better goal scorer than 22 year old John Tavares. Congratulations! The post was about potential to build a team around not who is better now. You can continue distorting the prevailing question if you choose but don't get angry when you see people voting based off that very question. If Tavares improves at the same rate as Toews he'll be at .58 GPG when he hits Toews age.

I have an idea! Why don't we compare who is a better player 22 year old Jonathan Toews or 25 year old Jonathan Toews. I'd put my money that almost every single person on this board would choose 25 year old Jonathan Toews. Why? Because he improved. When people vote for Tavares they are voting that he will likely surpass what Toews is now, not that he is the better player as it stands. Is this speculative? You bet your ass it is but its not devoid of reason either.

Tavares is a better goal scorer now than Toews was at his age. Period

Edit: Also I'm not sure how much people care about such things around these parts but 22 year old John Tavares had a higher Corsi Relative stat than 22 year old Jonathan Toews. For those unfamiliar with Corsi Relative it quantifies puck possession of a player by subtracting the office corsi from the on ice corsi.


Last edited by hmp7701: 07-18-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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07-18-2013, 03:01 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by rileymac79 View Post
I was gonna go to the Toews cup party in Winnipeg, but now I just feel like punching him in the mouth. Boy are Hawks fans the biggest bunch of sour patch kids out there.
Think its safe to say that if you in any way disrespect teows or prefer a player over him hawks fans will bash you.

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07-18-2013, 03:01 PM
  #383
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Toews

The Hundred Year War continues ever on.

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07-18-2013, 03:01 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by rileymac79 View Post
I was gonna go to the Toews cup party in Winnipeg, but now I just feel like punching him in the mouth. Boy are Hawks fans the biggest bunch of sour patch kids out there.
I sincerely apologize that my fellow Hawks fans and I cannot see the world through rileymac79 glasses like you yourself do.

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07-18-2013, 03:05 PM
  #385
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I truly believe that if you traded Toews for Tavares straight up tomorrow, Tavares would get 100 points next year, and possibly 50 goals.

There is an extreme contrast between the talent that Toews plays with, and who Tavares plays with. Believe it or not, but that makes a difference.

Same thing with Taylor Hall. Yes, Edmonton is a crappy team, but this is still a team that can pull off having one of the best powerplays in the league, while coming in dead last. There's no shortage of offensive talent for Hall to play with. Eberle and Gagner were both on pace for like 65 points, and Yakupov was on pace for 30 goals (a lot of PP goals that Hall was a part of), and Schultz was one of the top PP QB's. Edmonton has more talent up front, and way more talent on the back end. This makes a big difference in terms of production over a full season.

You trade Tavares to either of those two teams, and he becomes the top scorer out of the 4. Keith and Schultz both had 27 points last year; Visnovsky had 14 points and there was no one to replace him when he got injured.

Once NYI's prospects graduate though (Strome, Reinhart, Pulock) and start to make their mark, Tavares will clearly be the best player, and then people can look back on this thread and say that he wasn't overrated at all.

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07-18-2013, 03:05 PM
  #386
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I sincerely apologize that my fellow Hawks fans and I cannot see the world through rileymac79 glasses like you yourself do.
I was kidding about not going to the cup party anymore, just trying to act like a big suck

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07-18-2013, 03:06 PM
  #387
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I'm sure Toews will spend his nights crying into the Stanley Cup because user rileymac79 no longer likes him.
He's gonna probably try make it up to me at Whiskey Dix, shots on shots on shots on shots.

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07-18-2013, 03:17 PM
  #388
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It's easy to see why Tavares is so overrated. He was hyped like crazy since he was 15. Things like franchise player, generational talent, future MVP have been tossed around casually since then. So we have a player who's been crazy hyped for a long time who has been showing off some of why he was hyped. So it seems people are ready to annoint him with those accolades he was hyped to have for the longest time. Kane and Hall were also first overalls but didnt have nearly the same hype. Tavares is good but as of right now he's about equal to a guy like Kessel. He certainly has the potential to improve but he's not a Top 5 Center right now like has been claimed.
I'm not going to get into the Toews vs. Tavares debate. Nor do I care whether he's a top-5 center. But Tavares drives play in a way Kessel cannot.

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07-18-2013, 03:21 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by hmp7701 View Post
Yes 25 year old Toews is perhaps a better goal scorer than 22 year old John Tavares. Congratulations! .
That can hardly be argued. Goal-scoring wise, Tavares' 28 goals in 48 games this year is a bigger feat than the other 3 have accomplished. And his .GPG has gone up every single year.

Toews has taken his goal scoring to a slightly higher level the past couple years, but it's not at the level that Tavares is at, while being 3 years younger.

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07-18-2013, 03:32 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
I lol at how offended hawks fans get when they see their precious teows and his "intangibles" not being given respect.
Wait, are you one of those that believes defensive play is some goofy made up "intangible"? If so, good to know to discount any of your future posts.

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07-18-2013, 03:34 PM
  #391
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Read some of my posts then.
I don't really see much refutation of Chelios' points when I look at your posts in this thread... they're mostly conjecture and (seemingly off-base) bashing of the guys Tavares plays with.
You deride Moulson as a player and say he's incorrectly viewed as being good when in reality he is not. I mean, what are we supposed to say? The guy's a consistent 30-goal scorer, he's pretty solid. Is he good because of Tavares? Maybe. We don't really know.
As far as teammates go, we do know that many Islanders fans were saying Parenteau was nothing special and was simply leaching off of Tavares. Clearly they were wrong. So perhaps Tavares' linemates aren't quite as awful as people claim. Hell, Toews doesn't even play with a (present-day) 30-goal scorer. Hossa hasn't put up more than 30 since 2008-09.

I constantly see Tavares' offensive ability propped up as "clearly superior" to all three of the other players in this poll. I have no idea where that comes from other than "ahhh his linemates aren't superstars so he'd easily put up 20 more points with better ones." That argument is crap. It has nothing to support it. It's purely speculative, and that's why it's not worth anything in a discussion. "If" does not win anything, actual results do - and as far as actual results are concerned, Tavares is at best equal with the other three players in this poll offensively. Hall has had just the one good season, so remove him from there if you want - I'd like to see him prove that his scoring wasn't a fluke. Just me, though.

This is getting a little long-winded so I'll just sum it up here. "He would be better with better linemates" is not a sure thing at all. Many players actually put up better numbers when the offense runs through them alone as opposed to several players. Chelios makes a good point with Toews and his linemates when he says that Toews outscored both of his linemates (Saad and Hossa) by a ton. If Tavares' linemates are so much worse than he is, why wasn't the point gap between them similarly large? No, I'm not suggesting Moulson or Boyes are even all that close to the caliber of player Tavares is... this particular point is more about Toews than him. Toews certainly wasn't picking up points on Chicago's dreadful powerplay, that's for sure. He was getting them at even strength, and he vastly outscored his apparently out-of-this-world linemates. What gives?

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07-18-2013, 03:37 PM
  #392
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I truly believe that if you traded Toews for Tavares straight up tomorrow, Tavares would get 100 points next year, and possibly 50 goals.
Maybe, maybe not. The western conference is harder to put up points in seeing how every top player on their team in the east is PPG in the east. If you want to play that game then Tavares also has to kill penalties and accept more defensive responsibility. He also may not always be the focal point of the offense.

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07-18-2013, 03:39 PM
  #393
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I truly believe that if you traded Toews for Tavares straight up tomorrow, Tavares would get 100 points next year, and possibly 50 goals.

There is an extreme contrast between the talent that Toews plays with, and who Tavares plays with. Believe it or not, but that makes a difference.

Same thing with Taylor Hall. Yes, Edmonton is a crappy team, but this is still a team that can pull off having one of the best powerplays in the league, while coming in dead last. There's no shortage of offensive talent for Hall to play with. Eberle and Gagner were both on pace for like 65 points, and Yakupov was on pace for 30 goals (a lot of PP goals that Hall was a part of), and Schultz was one of the top PP QB's. Edmonton has more talent up front, and way more talent on the back end. This makes a big difference in terms of production over a full season.

You trade Tavares to either of those two teams, and he becomes the top scorer out of the 4. Keith and Schultz both had 27 points last year; Visnovsky had 14 points and there was no one to replace him when he got injured.

Once NYI's prospects graduate though (Strome, Reinhart, Pulock) and start to make their mark, Tavares will clearly be the best player, and then people can look back on this thread and say that he wasn't overrated at all.
You're right, TALENT MATTERS!!

Talent is what separates the men from the boys and having good players around certainly helps your team, and occasionally players can find that perfect partner to form a killer line.

But, when I watch track meets out east three teams come to mind that play tough defense and have goaltending more the style of which we see out west: Boston, Ottawa, and New York. Those are the teams that remind me of Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles, St. Louis, Columbus, Vancouver and Anaheim. All teams that make you work hard for every inch, will shut good players down and RARELY get caught up in a track meet north/south points fest.

So, I took a peak to see how JT did against those teams last year? In a six game sample size (albeit small but still 6 games): ZERO points. Zero.

JT needs room to score, he's no where near as good in close as Patrick Kane and no where near as gritty as Toews. Imagine if half your conference played solid defense? Yeah, there's a reason Toews and Kane are hoisting cups, yes they have a great team, but even moreso, they can adapt their game to be at their best against anyone in the league.

It just reminds me of how funny it was the notion that the Bruins were going to shut down the Hawk's offense because they shut down the Penguins, lol, the Hawks got the second best offense in the league playing tough defensive-minded teams all season long.

Tavares would be lucky to up 75% of his current point pace on the Hawks, heck, we even have a miserable power play.

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07-18-2013, 03:45 PM
  #394
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
You're right, TALENT MATTERS!!

Talent is what separates the men from the boys and having good players around certainly helps your team, and occasionally players can find that perfect partner to form a killer line.

But, when I watch track meets out east three teams come to mind that play tough defense and have goaltending more the style of which we see out west: Boston, Ottawa, and New York. Those are the teams that remind me of Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles, St. Louis, Columbus, Vancouver and Anaheim. All teams that make you work hard for every inch, will shut good players down and RARELY get caught up in a track meet north/south points fest.

So, I took a peak to see how JT did against those teams last year? In a six game sample size (albeit small but still 6 games): ZERO points. Zero.

JT needs room to score, he's no where near as good in close as Patrick Kane and no where near as gritty as Toews. Imagine if half your conference played solid defense? Yeah, there's a reason Toews and Kane are hoisting cups, yes they have a great team, but even moreso, they can adapt their game to be at their best against anyone in the league.

It just reminds me of how funny it was the notion that the Bruins were going to shut down the Hawk's offense because they shut down the Penguins, lol, the Hawks got the second best offense in the league playing tough defensive-minded teams all season long.

Tavares would be lucky to up 75% of his current point pace on the Hawks, heck, we even have a miserable power play.
so you selectively chose to not involve the games against the Rangers where JT did score? I can pick out a bunch of games for Toews and Kane too where they recorded 0 points

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07-18-2013, 03:48 PM
  #395
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Originally Posted by rileymac79 View Post
I was gonna go to the Toews cup party in Winnipeg, but now I just feel like punching him in the mouth. Boy are Hawks fans the biggest bunch of sour patch kids out there.
Nothing to be sour about here. I'm going to go hole up in my basement with Funjuns, Mountain Dew, and World of Warcraft, because you think I didn't play competitive hockey. I'm sure Toews will too when you pee in his punch bowl at the Stanley Cup party...

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07-18-2013, 03:49 PM
  #396
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so you selectively chose to not involve the games against the Rangers where JT did score? I can pick out a bunch of games for Toews and Kane too where they recorded 0 points
I went off of last season. Like I said, 6 games against 3 teams that don't get often get caught up in a track meet.

If not for those wide open track meets in all those games against teams who are awful defensively how many points do you think he'd really put up??

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07-18-2013, 03:49 PM
  #397
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You're right, TALENT MATTERS!!

Talent is what separates the men from the boys and having good players around certainly helps your team, and occasionally players can find that perfect partner to form a killer line.

But, when I watch track meets out east three teams come to mind that play tough defense and have goaltending more the style of which we see out west: Boston, Ottawa, and New York. Those are the teams that remind me of Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles, St. Louis, Columbus, Vancouver and Anaheim. All teams that make you work hard for every inch, will shut good players down and RARELY get caught up in a track meet north/south points fest.

So, I took a peak to see how JT did against those teams last year? In a six game sample size (albeit small but still 6 games): ZERO points. Zero.

JT needs room to score, he's no where near as good in close as Patrick Kane and no where near as gritty as Toews. Imagine if half your conference played solid defense? Yeah, there's a reason Toews and Kane are hoisting cups, yes they have a great team, but even moreso, they can adapt their game to be at their best against anyone in the league.

It just reminds me of how funny it was the notion that the Bruins were going to shut down the Hawk's offense because they shut down the Penguins, lol, the Hawks got the second best offense in the league playing tough defensive-minded teams all season long.

Tavares would be lucky to up 75% of his current point pace on the Hawks, heck, we even have a miserable power play.
Ok this maybe a small sample size(6 games) against Van, Calgary and Minny. Toews recorded 0 points!! 0

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07-18-2013, 03:49 PM
  #398
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Originally Posted by deytookerjaabs View Post
I went off of last season. Like I said, 6 games against 3 teams that don't get often get caught up in a track meet.

If not for those wide open track meets in all those games against teams who are awful defensively how many points do you think he'd really put up??
in the first 2 meetings against the Rangers, Tavares scored in both.. guess you just forgot to add those ones in..

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07-18-2013, 03:50 PM
  #399
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Maybe, maybe not. The western conference is harder to put up points in seeing how every top player on their team in the east is PPG in the east. If you want to play that game then Tavares also has to kill penalties and accept more defensive responsibility. He also may not always be the focal point of the offense.
Exactly, so he's not gonna have the top pairing draped over him exclusively, 24/7.

It's just hard to imagine what Tavares would do on a PP with Patrick Kane. He would TEAR it up! On the Islanders, he is the entire powerplay. He's both Kane and Toews on the Isle's PP. It's just such an extreme difference. If you've ever played on both a crappy team, and good team, you understand this. People that watch Tavares see what a good playmaker he is; if he had Hossa to pass to he would get way more points than he gets just passing to Moulson. That's just the way it works. Chicago also has both Keith and Seabrook transitioning the play, and Rozsival who was also on a good pace. Having offense from the back end makes a huge difference to a team's point totals.

And while playing on the worst offensive team, Tavares has proven last season to be the best goal scorer among the group with a .58 GPG. Goal scoring matters, a lot. Which is why if Stamkos was in this poll, he would probably win it, despite probably being the most one dimensional player of them all.

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07-18-2013, 03:50 PM
  #400
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Originally Posted by rileymac79 View Post
Ok this maybe a small sample size(6 games) against Van, Calgary and Minny. Toews recorded 0 points!! 0
So. My comparison was to teams with a specific style: DEFENSE. Ok, Toews/Kane play far more teams on a consistent basis that mirror the Rangers, Senators, and Bruins.

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