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Patrick Kane vs John Tavares vs Jonathan Toews vs Taylor Hall

View Poll Results: Who would you want for your team?
Patrick Kane 39 12.30%
John Tavares 162 51.10%
Jonathan Toews 87 27.44%
Taylor Hall 29 9.15%
Voters: 317. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-17-2013, 03:38 AM
  #101
crazy Kassian
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Tavares, simply better than Hall, Toews, and Kane. Hall does not belong in this conversation yet. Divisional rivals and rival, it's a honest opinion.

I've seen the Isles to see how much of a threat that top line is. I'm not sure if there is a worst top line player than Boyes.

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07-17-2013, 05:58 AM
  #102
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Yet again, Tavares winning a poll because of hypothetical points he would put up with better linemates instead of actual production. Don't you ever change HFBoards.

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07-17-2013, 06:00 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy Kassian View Post
Tavares, simply better than Hall, Toews, and Kane. Hall does not belong in this conversation yet. Divisional rivals and rival, it's a honest opinion.

I've seen the Isles to see how much of a threat that top line is. I'm not sure if there is a worst top line player than Boyes.
There is literally nothing concrete to support that. Nothing.

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07-17-2013, 07:11 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
There is literally nothing concrete to support that. Nothing.
Sure there is! Tavares made that 20 point scrub Paranteau look like a first liner. Paranteau would never put up near ppg numbers with anyone else except Crosby! Man the Avs are going to be in for such a disappointment when Paranteau plays without generation talent JT. Tavares would score like 150 points if he were on another team!

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07-17-2013, 07:23 AM
  #105
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Toews
Tavares
Hall
Kane

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People got to learn how to use punctuation. On our radio ads the other day a black man's wallet was reported as missing. Instead of a man's wallet black in colour missing a black man's wallet is missing.
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07-17-2013, 07:41 AM
  #106
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Tavares is first in "hypothetical - if he had better linemates" points. Everything else though suggests he's not as good as the other three. Massively overrated on these boards.

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07-17-2013, 07:41 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
Yet again, Tavares winning a poll because of hypothetical points he would put up with better linemates instead of actual production. Don't you ever change HFBoards.
... instead of the actual production that already has him first in this poll over the past two years combined? The one only Toews beats by a hair only when we're pro-rating his actual production over that time frame? But yeah, I'm sure in someone's world it makes more sense to look no bit further than this shortened season, or at worthless career averages if it helps the argument.

The arguments brought up against Tavares in general are painfully forced.

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07-17-2013, 07:57 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy Kassian View Post
Tavares, simply better than Hall, Toews, and Kane. Hall does not belong in this conversation yet. Divisional rivals and rival, it's a honest opinion.

I've seen the Isles to see how much of a threat that top line is. I'm not sure if there is a worst top line player than Boyes.
Why?

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07-17-2013, 08:29 AM
  #109
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If I want player to win a Stanley Cup then I would take Toews.

If I want a player to put up lots of points I would take Tavares.

I want the cup so I am taking Toews.

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07-17-2013, 08:43 AM
  #110
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The question of the poll was "Who would you want for your team?" and not who is the best player.
Homer-vote but I see Tavares as a good package to be a franchise player. Brings a lot of talent, hard work and leadership at a very good contract.
No doubt the others are good as well, depending on which stat you look at even better.

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07-17-2013, 09:02 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
... instead of the actual production that already has him first in this poll over the past two years combined? The one only Toews beats by a hair only when we're pro-rating his actual production over that time frame? But yeah, I'm sure in someone's world it makes more sense to look no bit further than this shortened season, or at worthless career averages if it helps the argument.

The arguments brought up against Tavares in general are painfully forced.
Convenient to limit it to 2 years, and ignore games played, when last season Toews got injured and only played 57 games (not to mention the fact that he was top 10 in points and top 5 in goals when he went down). No matter how you divvy up the stats Toews has consistently been equal (or even slightly better) than Tavares when it comes to offensive production.

Toews

Career totals: 408 games, 167 goals, 372 points, 0.41 goals per game, 0.91 points per game
1st 4 seasons (to match Tavares' career): 302 games, 115 goals, 267 points, 0.38 gpg, 0.88 ppg
Last 3 seasons: 186 games, 84 g, 181 p, 0.46 gpg, .97 ppg
Last 2 seasons: 106 games, 52 g, 105 p, 0.49 gpg, 0.99 ppg

Tavares

Career totals (4 seasons): 291 games, 112 g, 249 p, 0.38 ppg, 0.86 ppg
Last 3 seasons: 209 games, 88 g, 195 p, 0.42 gpg, 0.93 ppg
Last 2 seasons: 130 games, 59 g, 128 p, 0.45 gpg, 0.99 ppg

Keep in mind, this is only looking at offensive... which is supposed to be Tavares' bread and butter, and completely ignoring the defensive side of the game where Toews blows him out of the water. Again I say, the only argument for Tavares over Toews is hypothetical points he would put up with better players. That is it.

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07-17-2013, 09:30 AM
  #112
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Tavares is NOT better because of a lower PPG?

Tavares had more goals than each of the other three. Therefor he isn't better because his lack of assists?

Tavares has the weakest supporting cast out of anyone on this list. I don't think anyone would debate that. Considering assists are generally determined by the scoring ability of others, shouldn't supporting cast be taken into account?

Or is it just as simple as "this guy had XX points, while that guy had YY points, so obviously this guy >>>> that guy".

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07-17-2013, 09:31 AM
  #113
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Wow crazy tavares is winning this....I dont get it at all

Toews
Kane/Tavares
Hall (climbing)

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Old
07-17-2013, 10:22 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Tavares is NOT better because of a lower PPG?
When it comes to the comparison with Toews... pretty much. The only thing that Tavares does, or at least is perceived to do, better than Toews is produce offence... except he hasn't. For an offence first player to be considered better than a forward who is considered one of the best defensive forwards in the game, there would have to be a fairly significant gap in their offensive production. There isn't.

Quote:
Tavares had more goals than each of the other three. Therefor he isn't better because his lack of assists?
See my quote above. Toews has more career goals in his career (167 to 112), more goals in his 1st 4 seasons (115 to 112), and a better goals per game rate in both the last 3 and 2 seasons (0.46 to 0.42; 0.49 to 0.45). So no... its not because his lack of assists.

Quote:
Tavares has the weakest supporting cast out of anyone on this list. I don't think anyone would debate that. Considering assists are generally determined by the scoring ability of others, shouldn't supporting cast be taken into account?
Again, the only possible argument for Tavares is the "make belief linemate" argument.

Quote:
Or is it just as simple as "this guy had XX points, while that guy had YY points, so obviously this guy >>>> that guy".
When it comes to Toews vs Tavares, it is as simple as "this guy is an offence first player while that guy is not only good offensively but also one of the best defensive forwards in the league, this guy doesn't outscore that guy, so obviously that guy>>this guy".

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07-17-2013, 10:28 AM
  #115
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Do people actually watch Toews play? Pretty much every game minus like a 10 game stretch in the playoffs he was the best player on the ice, no matter who they played against. I kind of hate Kane and I'd take him over Tavares in a second, he's just better offensively and both are so meh defensively

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07-17-2013, 10:41 AM
  #116
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Do you guys maybe think Tavares is not overrated, its just a lot of people agree that he's really good? You guys should watch him play and stop reading other peoples opinions on him.

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07-17-2013, 10:42 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiHawk21 View Post
Wow crazy tavares is winning this....I dont get it at all

Toews
Kane/Tavares
Hall (climbing)
You probably don't get it because two guys from your fav team are behind him.

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07-17-2013, 10:47 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by rileymac79 View Post
You probably don't get it because two guys from your fav team are behind him.
Hawks are my team too. Tavares is a fantastic player, and I think he could potentially get 100 points pretty soon. But he hasn't yet. And Chelios has already refuted the linemates argument, so there's no reason for Tavares to be winning this poll. Toews is more valuable at this time.

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07-17-2013, 10:50 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Trance Kuja View Post
Hawks are my team too. Tavares is a fantastic player, and I think he could potentially get 100 points pretty soon. But he hasn't yet. And Chelios has already refuted the linemates argument, so there's no reason for Tavares to be winning this poll. Toews is more valuable at this time.
The poll says who has the most potential.

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07-17-2013, 10:51 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by rileymac79 View Post
The poll says who has the most potential.
I didn't see that, and I haven't voted.

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07-17-2013, 11:00 AM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
When it comes to the comparison with Toews... pretty much. The only thing that Tavares does, or at least is perceived to do, better than Toews is produce offence... except he hasn't. For an offence first player to be considered better than a forward who is considered one of the best defensive forwards in the game, there would have to be a fairly significant gap in their offensive production. There isn't.



See my quote above. Toews has more career goals in his career (167 to 112), more goals in his 1st 4 seasons (115 to 112), and a better goals per game rate in both the last 3 and 2 seasons (0.46 to 0.42; 0.49 to 0.45). So no... its not because his lack of assists.



Again, the only possible argument for Tavares is the "make belief linemate" argument.



When it comes to Toews vs Tavares, it is as simple as "this guy is an offence first player while that guy is not only good offensively but also one of the best defensive forwards in the league, this guy doesn't outscore that guy, so obviously that guy>>this guy".
My post was more towards the few people arguing that Hall is better, but either way it still applies to Toews and Kane. You can call the supporting cast argument "make belief" all you want, but it applies when Tavares is getting crucified for his PPG, or lack there of. The problem with Tavares is probably mainly his fault, since he's proven to produce with whoever is thrown on his line. Most Isles fans agree that Bailey and Okposo on his wings would probably help his PPG the most, but unfortunately that would kill any secondary scoring.

I know Moulson has scored goals. For the most part, he's been pretty damn good at it. Unfortunately, last year his S% dropped quite a bit(he went from a career high 16.4% to a career low 9.7%). Had he kept his same S%, or even his 3-year average prior to last year(14.6%), he would have scored another 7 or 8 goals in 2012-13. Considering how many of Moulson's goals Tavares is in on statistically, that would have been another 7 or 8 assists, which would have put him at 54 or 55 points.

To put up those numbers while being the only forward on the ice capable of moving the puck is incredible. As good as Moulson is(usually) at scoring goals, he is completely useless in any other aspect of the game. Especially the transition game and on the forcheck. Boyes was equally useless. Everything Tavares got statistically last year, he created himself or via Streit/Visnovsky.

Just look at the playoff series against Pittsburgh. The top line was completely shut down that 1st game, because they focused 100% on Tavares. Once Bailey subbed in for Moulson, it opened up some of the ice and Tavares looked like a completely different player.

So yes, I do think supporting cast/linemates plays a great deal when comparing stats. There is no doubt in my mind that Tavares is a better offensive player when compared to Toews. Toews might be the better overall player, because his 2-way game is elite. Offensively though, I don't think you are giving Tavares his due.

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07-17-2013, 11:02 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by rileymac79 View Post
The poll says who has the most potential.
No it doesn't

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Originally Posted by District99 View Post
Who has the most potential, best power fwd, most skill, two way fwd, pretty much if you wanted to make a run for the cup what player would you want on your team

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Old
07-17-2013, 11:13 AM
  #123
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No it doesn't
But..it does.

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07-17-2013, 11:21 AM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
My post was more towards the few people arguing that Hall is better, but either way it still applies to Toews and Kane. You can call the supporting cast argument "make belief" all you want, but it applies when Tavares is getting crucified for his PPG, or lack there of. The problem with Tavares is probably mainly his fault, since he's proven to produce with whoever is thrown on his line. Most Isles fans agree that Bailey and Okposo on his wings would probably help his PPG the most, but unfortunately that would kill any secondary scoring.

I know Moulson has scored goals. For the most part, he's been pretty damn good at it. Unfortunately, last year his S% dropped quite a bit(he went from a career high 16.4% to a career low 9.7%). Had he kept his same S%, or even his 3-year average prior to last year(14.6%), he would have scored another 7 or 8 goals in 2012-13. Considering how many of Moulson's goals Tavares is in on statistically, that would have been another 7 or 8 assists, which would have put him at 54 or 55 points.

To put up those numbers while being the only forward on the ice capable of moving the puck is incredible. As good as Moulson is(usually) at scoring goals, he is completely useless in any other aspect of the game. Especially the transition game and on the forcheck. Boyes was equally useless. Everything Tavares got statistically last year, he created himself or via Streit/Visnovsky.

Just look at the playoff series against Pittsburgh. The top line was completely shut down that 1st game, because they focused 100% on Tavares. Once Bailey subbed in for Moulson, it opened up some of the ice and Tavares looked like a completely different player.

So yes, I do think supporting cast/linemates plays a great deal when comparing stats. There is no doubt in my mind that Tavares is a better offensive player when compared to Toews. Toews might be the better overall player, because his 2-way game is elite. Offensively though, I don't think you are giving Tavares his due.
What the guy was saying is that most people who choose Toews do it because he is significantly better defensively. Most people who choose Tavares do it because is better offensively.

He then showed stats that said that Tavares and Toews are actually very close offensively. Toews is still 3 times the player that Tavares is defensively.

You then came with the excuse that if his linemates don't play well then Tavares can't either. Well, if he is as good as you think he is, he should be able to carry a line by himself no?

For example: Taylor Hall had 24% more points than the next highest oiler (Gagner) and 26% more than third. Tavares had 6% more than the next highest Islander (Moulson), and 26% more than third. Yet Taylor Hall doesn't deserve to be in this poll and Tavares wins because he doesn't have good linemates?

Can I not say that if RNH had more than a 5% shooting percentage this year and Eberle's didn't drop by 6% than Hall would have easily had 60 points? That is exactly what your argument is and it makes no sense on either side.

Tavares is a great player. It's upsetting how over rated he's getting.

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07-17-2013, 11:21 AM
  #125
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But..it does.
It also says best two way forward and there is no argument who wins that.

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