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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

If an all time NHL great did steroids, would it destroy his legacy?

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Old
07-16-2013, 11:09 PM
  #26
jhoops89
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I hope this never happens but in my mind, it would completely ruin that players reputation for me.

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07-16-2013, 11:12 PM
  #27
Zine
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Shouldn't the question be "If an all time NHL great is caught, would it destroy his legacy?"

It's almost a given that HOF players are/have been using PEDs.

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07-16-2013, 11:15 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Steroids and/or PEDS, celebrating winning. Interesting questions. Are we then celebrating the winning players or the winning chemical managers?
Steroids don't give you new skills. I have no problem with hockey players using them. If I had to play 82 games a year I would want something that helps my muscles recover quicker.

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07-17-2013, 12:00 AM
  #29
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Back in 1981 I had retrobulbar neuritis in my left eye which was an inflammation of my optic nerve. I was legally blind in my eye. The doctor put me on Prednisone, which is a corticosteroid. My vision started coming back within hours after taking the first pill.
He had me on the original strength of the pill for one week. After that, he had to wean me off by gradually reducing the strength of the pills over a period of two months.

During that time, I had severe mood swings. I ate like it was my last meal and my face swelled up. I was also told that I would be susceptible to injury because it decreases your immune system.

Steroids heal you faster, but they also increase your risk of injury.

I haven't taken any steroids since and I hope that I never have to. Too scary.

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07-17-2013, 12:12 AM
  #30
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With the quick starting and stopping, and how hard these guys play (All out for 30-50 seconds) I personally can't see any player in the top 6 forwards or top 4 d men using steroids and not dying by the time they're 30-35. Remember, all around your heart is a muscle, and gearing up constantly rebuilds muscle. So if these pro wrestlers and football players are dying by the time they turn 40 (from heart diseases including enlarged hearts where the muscle built around is too big for the heart to continuet o work), just imagine how quickly hockey players would drop.

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07-17-2013, 12:25 AM
  #31
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Steroids, man, it's not 1986. There's so much other stuff out there these days. I remember they busted a couple of guys at the leading German research department for sports science for helping German cyclists with their doping. Some of the top minds in sports science are putting their expertise and minds to PED development whether it's in Europe, Russia, China or North America.

These guys are usually a step ahead of the bureaucrats who are tasked with catching the users - who don't really have much of an incentive to catch them anyway. At least in the Olympic sports you usually have government agencies involved, in the pro leagues you leave it to the biggest profiters of doping to kill their own golden goose.

What hurts a sports business is publicity about doping rather than doping itself - MLB's antidoping efforts are a response to bad PR, not an effort to stop doping. If Bud Selig could have a world in which McGwire, Sosa, Bonds and Clemens are never caught he'd obviously take it. For the NHL that genie is still in the bottle and you know they pray it will never be opened. They have a good chance too because the NHL from the coaches upward through management is as much of a closed circuit of good ole boys as one can envision. The media only has an interest in pushing it as an angle when the floodgates open, as long as it's contained the media won't say much about it because you don't bite the hand that feeds you.

The thing is "if everyone cheats who cares" isn't really a good option either. Doping is becoming increasingly complex and the party that manages its doping best has a good chance of coming out on top in the end. So you really might be cheering the scientists and doctors rather than the athletes. You also gotta remember that not every body responds the same way to the same chemicals - some guys might literally be predisposed to being really good dopers.

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07-17-2013, 01:12 AM
  #32
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I've said this before but only hockey and soccer fans belive that their sports are clean and honourable and that is a naive so say the least. Well they believe it was clean except for those evil soviets.

Hockey has been filled with several kinds of doping with everything from uppers to hard drugs in the mix.

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07-17-2013, 01:46 AM
  #33
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Absolutely not. Hockey is a directly competitive sport where it's participants are measured by whether they best each other. Nobody really cares about the benchmarks players set at the all star game for slapshots, skating et cetera, and those would be the only results that steroids in hockey would really effect. The only scenario I can think of that's so off-the-wall that I'd never consider it, is for one guy to be doing steroids and wiping out his competition as a result. If steroids are available and acceptable within the game's internal culture, that almost certainly means that a broad cross-section of players will take advantage of it. So when two teams of 'roid-monkeys face off for the cup final, one of those teams will win, and it will probably be the better one.

That said, it would be a terrible thing if steroid abuse was actually rampant in the NHL. It sets an awful example for young kids, and creates an unhealthy industry standard for young players breaking in. But as far as competitive achievement goes, we aren't celebrating players for being faster or stronger, we're celebrating their ability to win, and it's no easier to win if everyone's juicing.
Good post. You've once again demonstrated your insightfulness. I was going to say something very similar to this.

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07-17-2013, 01:53 AM
  #34
mbhhofr
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This is a tragedy.

John Kordic.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...ne/MAG1004135/

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07-17-2013, 04:23 AM
  #35
unknown33
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You mean if it would get revealed that pro athletes use PED?

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07-17-2013, 05:55 AM
  #36
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Management

Quote:
Originally Posted by candyman82 View Post
Steroids don't give you new skills. I have no problem with hockey players using them. If I had to play 82 games a year I would want something that helps my muscles recover quicker.
Two bolded phrases contradict each other. Managing fatigue during performance happens to be a skill.

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07-17-2013, 09:08 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
This is a tragedy. John Kordic.
Ya, classic example. Goes way back. Real Chevrefils told to drink beer in order to "fill out", develops a real taste for it, full blown alcoholic. Died in a Mission, a Mens Hostel. Tim Horton. Brian Spencer. John Kordic. Drugs of one kind or another. Steroids beyond insidious. Mind altering side-effects. Rage. Borderline to full on psychotic episodes. Playing with fire.

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07-17-2013, 09:15 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Two bolded phrases contradict each other. Managing fatigue during performance happens to be a skill.
I should clarify, I meant improving a player's hands or their foot-speed. Is there actually skill involved in muscle regeneration?

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07-17-2013, 09:16 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Ya, classic example. Goes way back. Real Chevrefils told to drink beer in order to "fill out", develops a real taste for it, full blown alcoholic. Died in a Mission, a Mens Hostel. Tim Horton. Brian Spencer. John Kordic. Drugs of one kind or another. Steroids beyond insidious. Mind altering side-effects. Rage. Borderline to full on psychotic episodes. Playing with fire.
Effectively comes down to dependencies. One way or another the view of players without control or with reliances impacts on how performance is viewed.

From Sprague Cleghorn's rage issues to the hypothetical modern steroid user there always were and will be negative perceptions.

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07-17-2013, 09:19 AM
  #40
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If you're not cheating you're not trying and it's only cheating if you get caught.

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07-17-2013, 09:20 AM
  #41
Canadiens1958
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Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by candyman82 View Post
I should clarify, I meant improving a player's hands or their foot-speed. Is there actually skill involved in muscle regeneration?
Yes, when you consider the pro-active choices involved from program to trainer to execution.

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07-17-2013, 09:20 AM
  #42
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In my books it wouldn't hurt the player's reputation at all. This is professional sports with hundreds of millions of dollars at stake. You have to be extremely naive to think that doping is not an integral part of the NHL, the NBA and the NFL. Doping control in the major American leagues is a joke.

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07-17-2013, 09:39 AM
  #43
Killion
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This is professional sports with hundreds of millions of dollars at stake.
It certainly is that ( a bad joke ) but your absolutely correct, a lot of money on the line. Some people, gonna do whatever it takes.

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07-17-2013, 10:04 AM
  #44
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http://www.csnbayarea.com/blog/biz-b...a-nhl-olympics

NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE TESTING POLICY
Hockey’s drug testing policies started in 2005. PED testing has less restrictions and is more open than MLB, NFL and NBA. NHL testing occurs randomly up to three times a year. and is done through urine analysis. Testing takes place on teams off days during the regular season. No testing is done during the playoffs or off season.

Is this information correct?

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07-17-2013, 11:36 AM
  #45
jkrx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Absolutely not. Hockey is a directly competitive sport where it's participants are measured by whether they best each other. Nobody really cares about the benchmarks players set at the all star game for slapshots, skating et cetera, and those would be the only results that steroids in hockey would really effect. The only scenario I can think of that's so off-the-wall that I'd never consider it, is for one guy to be doing steroids and wiping out his competition as a result. If steroids are available and acceptable within the game's internal culture, that almost certainly means that a broad cross-section of players will take advantage of it. So when two teams of 'roid-monkeys face off for the cup final, one of those teams will win, and it will probably be the better one.

That said, it would be a terrible thing if steroid abuse was actually rampant in the NHL. It sets an awful example for young kids, and creates an unhealthy industry standard for young players breaking in. But as far as competitive achievement goes, we aren't celebrating players for being faster or stronger, we're celebrating their ability to win, and it's no easier to win if everyone's juicing.
Steroids isn't only used to build yourself up to a monkey state. This is the misconception people have with doping. Different kinds of "roids" and enhancers is used to build strength during injuries or to become competitive faster after an illness like cancer for example.

If everyone is juicing, then the game is about which team has the best scientists and doctors and no longer about most competitive players.

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07-17-2013, 04:39 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Steroids isn't only used to build yourself up to a monkey state. This is the misconception people have with doping. Different kinds of "roids" and enhancers is used to build strength during injuries or to become competitive faster after an illness like cancer for example.

If everyone is juicing, then the game is about which team has the best scientists and doctors and no longer about most competitive players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
The thing is "if everyone cheats who cares" isn't really a good option either. Doping is becoming increasingly complex and the party that manages its doping best has a good chance of coming out on top in the end. So you really might be cheering the scientists and doctors rather than the athletes. You also gotta remember that not every body responds the same way to the same chemicals - some guys might literally be predisposed to being really good dopers.
Yes, but that creates uncertainty about who the "real best players" are, not a black mark on one guy. If it became public that say, Ovechkin was doping all this time, the sensible response wouldn't be "oh, that's why he was so much better than everyone else," but rather to realize that it's moot as to whether a PED-free NHL would still have Ovechkin as its best winger. This is a bad thing, but it shouldn't individually destroy one legacy. So I wouldn't say "who cares," but the answer to the thread's initial question for me is still no.

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07-17-2013, 04:57 PM
  #47
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I'll be honest, I don't necessarily think that steroids or HGH would help you in the NHL.
I was a very average player through minor hockey. Never even played on the 'A' team in midget hockey.

I quit hockey part way through my final year of midget. I had long given up on the dream of playing pro because I knew I wasn't good enough.

I was a tall skinny guy. Over the next 1-2 seasons I got hooked on working out (I'd been working out since I was 14, but took it to another level after high school).

I put on 40 pounds over the next 18 months. A lot of it was just that my body finally started to fill out. But I also took Winstrol. I got really strong and lean. I started skating again.
The difference was dramatic.

I was way faster, and impossible to knock off the puck. Obviously my hand skills did not improve, but I could crush people.

I hadn't played organized hockey in almost 2 seasons, but just based upon my size and strength got invited to the New West Bruins rookie camp, and from there, to their main camp.

Steroids would be a huge advantage to any hockey player. Size and speed are critical elements in the game of hockey. Sure it wouldn't help you stickhandle, but how many guys would benefit from an extra gear, or quicker first couple of steps???

If an NHL legend was found to have been using steroids, based upon my experience, I think it should for sure tarnish what they accomplished.

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07-17-2013, 04:59 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
If everyone is juicing, then the game is about which team has the best scientists and doctors and no longer about most competitive players.
Competitive players? You think anyone can get that competitive spirit if they only wanted to? In that case everybody would be in the NHL. I'm not pro-PED, but for sure any clean NHL star is as lucky with his situation as anyone that is juiceing. As a matter of fact the juicers are sometimes just making up for what others have gotten for free. That is the nature of the game. I just have some problems with people saying that NHL players have wanted it more than many others, that is a lie.

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07-17-2013, 05:14 PM
  #49
Morgoth Bauglir
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If you're not cheating you're not trying and it's only cheating if you get caught.
And that's the kind of attitude in sports that I really hate.

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07-17-2013, 05:38 PM
  #50
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Perspective

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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
And that's the kind of attitude in sports that I really hate.
From a fan perspective I understand and appreciate your position. Playing and coaching is somewhat different. For the amount of time effort and money dedicated to "cheating" the return is very meager. Proper and honest effort is constant, not dependent on participants "dosing" at the right time or remembering all the little "gaming" tactics a coach may have loopholed.

Spending the time wasted on "cheating" or "gaming" takes away from building a solid foundation.

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