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If an all time NHL great did steroids, would it destroy his legacy?

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Old
07-17-2013, 08:13 PM
  #51
LeBlondeDemon10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
From a fan perspective I understand and appreciate your position. Playing and coaching is somewhat different. For the amount of time effort and money dedicated to "cheating" the return is very meager. Proper and honest effort is constant, not dependent on participants "dosing" at the right time or remembering all the little "gaming" tactics a coach may have loopholed.

Spending the time wasted on "cheating" or "gaming" takes away from building a solid foundation.
I agree with your stance on this issue. However, the interesting case of Barry Bonds demonstrates both building a solid foundation and cheating. Born with a load of god given talent, he appears to have put in the honest work at the beginning of his career. Rookie card picture shows a guy who was well less than 200 pounds. Established himself as possibly the best all around player in the game during the early 90's and maybe all-time. Certain HOFer prior to 1998. Then he sees McGuire and Sosa all bulked up racking up home runs in 1998. Barry decides he wants a piece of the action. He takes it a step further by going with HGH rather than the typical steroids of that era. He bulks up to likely 240 pounds. Head gets bigger (Matt Groenig = Nostradamus), home runs flying, nobody wants to pitch to him, breaking records for homers, walks, slg %, etc...Payoff was huge for the time he was allowed to do it. Now, not so much. Sad really.

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07-17-2013, 08:31 PM
  #52
vadim sharifijanov
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just want to reiterate that there's a smart way of doing steroids (to heal/rehab quicker, regenerate lost muscle over a long season or especially playoff run), and a stupid way (there were rumours about an ex-canuck defense who gained 25 pounds of muscle over a summer. could barely execute a mohawk turn and eventually injured his back picking up a cracker in the locker room).

should it affect a guy's legacy? in sprinting, i agree with ben johnson. i think he said something like, steroids or not i was still the fastest man in the world for twelve years. but in a sport where there isn't a reasonable assumption that all of your peers are cheating and you were just the one guy who got caught/was set up, i'd say it's a pretty black mark. baseball players in the barry bonds era? could care less; it makes ranking guys across eras tougher, but there are more things to being a sports fans than relentlessly ranking guys across eras. (something all of us here could stand to remember sometimes, including me.) i don't know, i'm maybe naive to think that guys have been on some stuff, and some of it has been some pretty hard stuff, but that the playing field's been generally level enough that if a guy all of a sudden started killing everyone else after starting a massive PED regimen, that should probably taint some awards, records, and maybe even championships.

but that's easy for me to say. i'd bet anything that if kobe bryant, chasing down his 6th ring (the jordan ring) and kareem's all-time scoring record with not many years left on his body, would do steroids to heal his torn ACL tomorrow if he knew he could get away with it. these are competitive guys, and there are some very fine lines. and do we ever crap on some of them for not being competitive enough, ahem pierre turgeon.

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07-17-2013, 08:35 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Head gets bigger (Matt Groenig = Nostradamus),
that was ken griffey jr. in the simpsons episode.

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07-17-2013, 08:35 PM
  #54
Canadiens1958
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Systematic

^^^ Baseball went thru an era where steroid use had almost a systematic tolerance after the 1994 short season lockout. From the commissioner, thru owners, players, PA, media, there was systematic lack of concern about certain indicators.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-18-2013 at 09:43 AM.
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07-18-2013, 09:30 AM
  #55
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I'm not sure that it would.

The biggest steroid scandal on record is the MLB's debacle with certain sluggers. That is to say, these players were taking muscle-building supplements to greatly enhance their strength, which would directly result in an increase of home run production.

An NHL player can take certain drugs to speed healing, but there really isn't a form of enhancement suitable for playing hockey that will make you noticeably more effective at the game. You could take stimulants, I suppose, but even then your production is mostly centered on your actual talent and your ability to be cerebral.

It's cheating, 100%. But it's not the kind of gross overcompensation that I think 'roiding out for home runs is.

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07-18-2013, 09:38 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
I'm not sure that it would.

The biggest steroid scandal on record is the MLB's debacle with certain sluggers. That is to say, these players were taking muscle-building supplements to greatly enhance their strength, which would directly result in an increase of home run production.

An NHL player can take certain drugs to speed healing, but there really isn't a form of enhancement suitable for playing hockey that will make you noticeably more effective at the game. You could take stimulants, I suppose, but even then your production is mostly centered on your actual talent and your ability to be cerebral.

It's cheating, 100%. But it's not the kind of gross overcompensation that I think 'roiding out for home runs is.
Everybody just cant build up the ultimate strenght and explosivity per pound that is most effective in hockey. Players sure could take something to get that ability.

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07-18-2013, 09:48 AM
  #57
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Almost all professional athletes use PED's in modern times.

It is very easy to pass drug tests for detection periods are very small and avoidable + there are masking agents.

Agree to disagree, but it is what it is. I've seen it myself.

There is too much money and competition involved to not do whatever it takes. If you don't, and the next guy does, you fall behind.

http://vimeo.com/51662984

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07-18-2013, 09:52 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
I'll be honest, I don't necessarily think that steroids or HGH would help you in the NHL. But to answer your question, yeah, it probably would. Or at list tarnish it a bit.
Steroid's help any type of athletic performance. It promotes faster / optimal recovery from whatever you might be doing.

There's a reason why professional sprinters/runners/cyclists etc are some of the most common type of athlete to get caught.

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07-18-2013, 01:11 PM
  #59
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It would not matter in my mind, largely because I assume it is incredibly prevalent now and has been for several decades, but there's certainly a steroid controversy waiting to bubble that would definitely hurt guys in terms of HHOF and the amount of happy media articles written about him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I don't see Sudafed as being appreciably different from guys smoking in the locker room. It's just a buzz, not something that makes you exceed your normal physical limitations.

To me, the line is drawn at drugs that create physiological changes outside of the brain. It's one thing to be hyped up on medications, it's something different to put on 15 pounds of muscle during a summer.
Amphetamines are a proven performance enhancer in sports. Cigarettes are certainly not. And the health risks inherent with abuse of amphetamines are at least as bad as those with steroids.

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07-18-2013, 02:59 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PensBandwagonerNo272 View Post
Almost all professional athletes use PED's in modern times.

It is very easy to pass drug tests for detection periods are very small and avoidable + there are masking agents.

Agree to disagree, but it is what it is. I've seen it myself.

There is too much money and competition involved to not do whatever it takes. If you don't, and the next guy does, you fall behind.

http://vimeo.com/51662984
If you mean Sudafed or drinking 4 Black coffees between periods then maybe. If you mean HGH and steriods I do highly doubt that most NHL players are using them.

When the Olympics come around I can only think of one player over a decade ago that got caught for Steroids, Berard. If NHLers were doing steroids while not being tested, it seems to me more players would be sloppy and get caught by strict Olympic testing if they are used to no testing.

I do think quite a few enforcers, a handful of mid 30's plus players extending there careers with PEDs and vigorous training, plus a few here and there. I do think some HHOF or Hall of very good vets in the last dozen years have used HGH and roids. In my opinion and observation.

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07-18-2013, 03:04 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ishdul View Post
Amphetamines are a proven performance enhancer in sports. Cigarettes are certainly not. And the health risks inherent with abuse of amphetamines are at least as bad as those with steroids.
Again though, you're talking about giving yourself a mental edge. That, to me, is not as significant to legacy-building as giving yourself an illegal physical edge.

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07-18-2013, 05:48 PM
  #62
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Honestly, I could care less. I wish steroids were a part of the game so people could use them for getting healthy.

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07-18-2013, 09:43 PM
  #63
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I think they all use them, so it wouldn't bother me any. I'd say if peds run rampant in a sport where your primary task is to chew bubble gum for 9 innings then their probably rampant in all sports.


Last edited by habsfanatics*: 07-18-2013 at 10:01 PM.
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07-18-2013, 10:08 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Victorious Secret View Post
Honestly, I could care less. I wish steroids were a part of the game so people could use them for getting healthy.
Well you should care if you care at all about the players. The detritus psychological effects from steroid & or amphetamine use on the central nervous system & brain, beyond acceptable. Price way more than any human shell can pay.

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07-18-2013, 10:43 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Again though, you're talking about giving yourself a mental edge. That, to me, is not as significant to legacy-building as giving yourself an illegal physical edge.
One cancels out the other tarheel. Your a Moron if you take PEDS, so any physical advantage, be it strength, speed or stamina, well, your still a Moron after the game, race, event. So what did you win? Nothing, because you did it dishonestly. And if you get caught? Hey. Watch Wyle E. Coyote Cartoons in your Mommas basement from 24-54yrs of age, ashamed to show your face in public. Just like Ben Johnson. Church on Sundays, 3 squares a day, imprisoned & branded for life by your own foolishness.

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07-22-2013, 07:58 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
One cancels out the other tarheel. Your a Moron if you take PEDS, so any physical advantage, be it strength, speed or stamina, well, your still a Moron after the game, race, event. So what did you win? Nothing, because you did it dishonestly. And if you get caught? Hey. Watch Wyle E. Coyote Cartoons in your Mommas basement from 24-54yrs of age, ashamed to show your face in public. Just like Ben Johnson. Church on Sundays, 3 squares a day, imprisoned & branded for life by your own foolishness.
One moron down today and many more to come. Gonna be a lot of mommas' basements filling up.

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07-22-2013, 09:59 PM
  #67
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Scott Stevens' nineties physicality, Lindros' power forward dominance, Krutov's eighties reputation,... yeah, they'd suffer.

There are only a handful of all-time greats whose physical exploits are important to their legacy and hence the harm a steroid scandal would entail.

Of course, the era was different back then, and juicing was common across sports, and those who haven't already been caught are unlikely to be outed.


Last edited by VanIslander: 07-22-2013 at 10:08 PM.
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07-22-2013, 10:08 PM
  #68
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If a guy like Selanne who is much-loved in the fan community as a good guy etc. was to be exposed as a PED user, I think it would probably have a more massive impact than if some big beefy D-man was exposed.

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07-23-2013, 07:58 AM
  #69
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There seems to be a pretty wide-spread misunderstanding and general naivety regarding steroids and PEDs in this thread.

Steroids aren't just for getting huge. The sport with probably the most rampant drug use is cycling, and they are far from huge. When you're competing everyday, you need to recover, and PEDs can also help with that. PEDs come playoff time would be a huge advantage.

If you think that no one is using them/has used them, then you're pretty foolish. They are professional athletes with millions of dollars at stake. I watch enough sports to know that millions of dollars is more than enough to make even the best good ol' Canadian boy cheat. They're still human, after all.

I'm not even going to touch those who say stuff like, "Everyone is doing it, so who cares?!"

EDIT - To answer the question, it would in my mind, but I think this thread proves that it wouldn't really destroy his legacy for everyone.


Last edited by JWells16: 07-23-2013 at 08:16 AM.
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07-24-2013, 02:13 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
One cancels out the other tarheel. Your a Moron if you take PEDS, so any physical advantage, be it strength, speed or stamina, well, your still a Moron after the game, race, event. So what did you win? Nothing, because you did it dishonestly. And if you get caught? Hey. Watch Wyle E. Coyote Cartoons in your Mommas basement from 24-54yrs of age, ashamed to show your face in public. Just like Ben Johnson. Church on Sundays, 3 squares a day, imprisoned & branded for life by your own foolishness.
Fun fact: Did you know that Ben Johnson was hired as Maradonnas personal coach? During that time Maradonna was caught doping.

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07-24-2013, 02:51 PM
  #71
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Fun fact: Did you know that Ben Johnson was hired as Maradonnas personal coach? During that time Maradonna was caught doping.
... ya, and in 1999 he was hired by the infamous Muammar Gaddafi to train his son Al Saadi, who aspired to a pro Football career I believe with an Italian team. He too given the boot after playing just one game & failing a drug test.... but it doesnt stop there. Seems on his way back to Canada, and I think it was France on a layover, Ben there shows up at the Canadian Consulate claiming he'd been robbed by a Gang of Roma Gypsies who stole his wallet containing app $4000 in cash, his pay for training young Al Saadi. A foot race pursued, but Ben couldnt catch them.

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07-24-2013, 03:30 PM
  #72
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Igor Larinov published a book in Switzerland a decade ago saying soviet players were injected with a substance before every big hockey event.This was well known in the hockey world but nothing was done.Igor does not know what was in drug because you did not ask in Russia at the time.Read the book

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07-24-2013, 03:39 PM
  #73
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I would put a mental asterisk next to their name, sure.

However, not only is this unlikely (Gretzky was what, 150 pounds and never outmuscled anybody...Mario Lemieux ate cheeseburgers, smoked cigarettes, drank wine and looked like a guy who ate cheesburgers, drank wine and smoked cigarettes...before that, I'm not sure steroids would even have been known or been able to have been afforded), but I'm not certain how much it would even help.

Maybe for bangers, guys who overrely on speed, stay at home D and enforcers, but those types of guys don't often end up as all-time greats.

It's the 'soft hands' guys that score the most goals by the end of their careers. The smart guys who create the most plays, not the speedsters.

And finally, steroids put stress on ligaments, tendons, things like that. Hockey stresses those too much for a body to sustain additional stress on them over a 15-20 year career. Baseball players, by contrast, do a Hell of a lot more standing around not putting any stress on their joints at all (exception of catchers).

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07-24-2013, 04:38 PM
  #74
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PEDs

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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
I would put a mental asterisk next to their name, sure.

However, not only is this unlikely (Gretzky was what, 150 pounds and never outmuscled anybody...Mario Lemieux ate cheeseburgers, smoked cigarettes, drank wine and looked like a guy who ate cheesburgers, drank wine and smoked cigarettes...before that, I'm not sure steroids would even have been known or been able to have been afforded), but I'm not certain how much it would even help.

Maybe for bangers, guys who overrely on speed, stay at home D and enforcers, but those types of guys don't often end up as all-time greats.

It's the 'soft hands' guys that score the most goals by the end of their careers. The smart guys who create the most plays, not the speedsters.

And finally, steroids put stress on ligaments, tendons, things like that. Hockey stresses those too much for a body to sustain additional stress on them over a 15-20 year career. Baseball players, by contrast, do a Hell of a lot more standing around not putting any stress on their joints at all (exception of catchers).
In Montreal PEDS go back to at least 1967, Wayne Coleman and other CFL players:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_G...%28wrestler%29

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07-24-2013, 04:51 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
In Montreal PEDS go back to at least 1967, Wayne Coleman and other CFL players:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_G...%28wrestler%29
I suppose I should have specified "known in hockey circles," but I thought that went without saying since nobody other than you is talking about bodybuilders or wrestlers.

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