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Concern for Carlyle's biases against skill players?

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Old
07-16-2013, 11:10 PM
  #1
Avec Fromage*
 
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Concern for Carlyle's biases against skill players?

Randy Carlyle is a good coach in most respects, but some of his line up decisions are head scratchers: forcing Grabovski into a pure shutdown role, scratching Gardiner and Frattin, playing Kostka and Holzer on the top pairing while more capable players sat out.

His insistence of assigning players' positions based solely on handedness can be unnerving. He forced Lupul onto the third line in Anaheim instead of trying him on the off-wing. Lupul exploded once he hit Toronto and had top-six minutes. Grabovski and Gardiner similarly played very well with bigger roles in the playoffs.

Wilson may have experimented too much, but Carlyle seems a little too hardheaded.

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07-16-2013, 11:16 PM
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Lots of complaining going towards a coach that got Toronto into the playoffs.

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07-16-2013, 11:19 PM
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Mansfield
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hfboards should collectively coach the leafs, we can all sit in the plats and argue over line changes

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07-16-2013, 11:23 PM
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Stephen
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Carlyle was a tough skilled guy, so I think he looks at a skill player with suspicion until they show they've got a pair. Sometimes it leads to the wrong conclusions. With tough lunch pail guys, I think he's more comfortable rewarding them because their efforts are more evident.

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07-16-2013, 11:24 PM
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veedubn1
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I like Uncle Randy... I had my doubts when we hired him (I wanted Eakins) but he's been pretty good.

I have no issues with how he coaches.

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07-16-2013, 11:26 PM
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Keep getting us into the playoffs, he can do whatever he damn well wants.

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07-16-2013, 11:32 PM
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JAMmer124
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He's fine. Kessel is as soft as warm butter, but that didn't affect how Carlyle used him.

Honestly, I don't get why people complain about trivial things like this. We were successful last year with how Randy coached, so there's no reason that the same style won't work again.

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07-16-2013, 11:34 PM
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That's such a specious argument.

kadri is a skill guy. carlyle seemed to like him.

He also highly praises lupul now for his work ethic on and off the ice. Lupul will admit he didn't have that work ethic in Anaheim. He didn't explode because he got top 6 minutes. He exploded because he got his **** together.

Gardiner played like ass in the regular season. He sat. Gardiner played dominant in the playoffs. He earned a ton of minutes.

Grabovski, I don't know what he did but there was bad blood somewhere between them.

I'm pretty sure pronger, niedermayer, getzlaf, perry, selanne all had skill.

Carlyle is just making his players earn their minutes.

Nothing to see here, move along.

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07-16-2013, 11:51 PM
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LaPlante94
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He's a good coach but he can pick favourites and stick with them longer then they should be used. Kostka is the perfect example where he played decent some games but was awful most. Then in the playoffs he scratches Gardiner,Macarthur, and Frattin I believe. Those 3 were pretty big factors in making that series go to 7 games. He screwed up with Lupul in Anaheim but he admitted he did when he came to Toronto. Good coach but he makes quite a few mistakes when it comes to line ups but he is very good at the match up game. Out coached Claude Julien to the point where he gave up trying to match up Chara against Kessel. So overall he's good coach who doesn't use players properly quite a bit which can easily be fixed.

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07-16-2013, 11:52 PM
  #10
Ten
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edruga View Post
Lots of complaining going towards a coach that got Toronto into the playoffs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerkini View Post
Keep getting us into the playoffs, he can do whatever he damn well wants.
Those happen to be the two comments I wanted to make.

I thought the players he was biased towards playing did a pretty good job last year.

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07-17-2013, 12:59 AM
  #11
Mike1
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It's concerning when any coach shows bias against skill players because those are the guys that help you win games.

Nobody has won a Stanley Cup with a team of goons & 3rd liners....

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07-17-2013, 01:58 AM
  #12
DeathToAllButMetal
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There is no Carlyle bias against skilled players. Sorry, but Grabovski just flat-out sucks. He's selfish and stupid and couldn't get the job done no matter what role Carlyle gave him. Pretty damn obvious what his rep is around the NHL, too. It's a lock that nobody seems interested in giving him serious money, or he'd have been signed by now. He'll wind up in the KHL very soon, maybe after another one- or two-year contract in the NHL with some suckers, maybe this summer.

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07-17-2013, 02:01 AM
  #13
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Yeah, Carlyle's bias is the reason we didn't make the playoffs last sea....

What?

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07-17-2013, 02:09 AM
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So many variables that we have no idea about to allow us to even speculate, and especially to question caryles decisions.

Like the Kostka stuff. The marlies players didn't sit out for half a season, therefore they were much less rusty. Which is why most of them came charging out of the gate, frattin, Fraser, Kadri, etc. prob a combination of them being fresh, and the nhl players being rusty. That is why as the season the wore on, the less most of the ahl players seemed to be effective.

So maybe he was actually correct in playing the marlies players.

Heck he even started scrivens, the first 3 of 4 games because he was stronger than reimer during tryouts.

Regardless eventually the nhl players dusted off the rust, and eventually caryle benched Kostka and rode reimer.

Actually It's funny, our golden prospect played like a golden boy, our prized trade acquisition played like a 2nd overall pick, our captain got votes for the Norris instead of for the most overrated player, our star players played like star players, and our goalie returned to playing like one....


And people are questioning coaching.

Outside of Grabo and Mac, the remainder of the team seemingly overachieved... Caryle is not the problem.

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Old
07-17-2013, 02:16 AM
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Kessely Snipes
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I don't even know where to begin on this one, some other posters have summed it up nicely.

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Old
07-17-2013, 02:43 AM
  #16
ShortSideFlick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1 View Post
It's concerning when any coach shows bias against skill players because those are the guys that help you win games.

Nobody has won a Stanley Cup with a team of goons & 3rd liners....
Lol.. maybe, but nobody has won a stanley cup without 3rd liners that stepped up. THOSE are the guys that help you win games and support a winning culture. Part of getting the best out of third liners is rewarding them when they bust their ***** night after night. It also happens to push your high end guys to earn their minutes back. If your first and second liners aren't willing to earn them back but just feel entitled to them, then get rid of them because they are bringing your whole team down.

Obviously you want both, but excepting "IQ", more often than not a decent player with tons of effort will outplay someone with tons of skill but decent effort.

I questioned and was frustrated by the Kostka thing too, but I have a feeling it was more about setting a culture for the team going forward. We don't see what goes on behind the scenes, and I have to imagine that what we do see is often players saying what they're "supposed" to. That said, I have the impression there's a lot more confidence, positivity, and team spirit than there's been in a long time. Maybe I'm wrong, but if overplaying a guy like kostka once in awhile is part of bringing that out of your team then I'm on board.

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Old
07-17-2013, 03:23 AM
  #17
Rare Jewel
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Kadri.

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07-17-2013, 03:46 AM
  #18
Aplayaz2000
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Carlyle was the best thing to happen here

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07-17-2013, 04:17 AM
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Duke Silver
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Just because the Leafs made the playoffs last season, doesn't mean that all of Carlyle's decisions were the right ones, and it most certainly does not absolve him from criticism.

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07-17-2013, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Just because the Leafs made the playoffs last season, doesn't mean that all of Carlyle's decisions were the right ones, and it most certainly does not absolve him from criticism.
Of course he's not free of criticism, but the amount he's receiving, you would think we missed the playoffs again. You should see how the guys at PPP rag on him, they want the guy fired ffs. There's people on this forum who say the same thing, like that Anth93 guy who went as far as saying that Ron Wilson was a better coach.

No coach is perfect, you should've seen how Red Wings fans b-tched about Babcock this year, or how Penguins fans want Bylsma fired, or how Hawks fans wanted Quenneville fired before the second round was even over.

Considering our team made the playoffs for the first time in 9 years, we should temper ourselves a bit before wanting to fire the guy who took us there in his first season.

Anyway Carlyle did just fine with guys like Cam Fowler, Selanne and Andy McDonald in Anaheim as well as Kessel and Kadri and despite the scratches this year Gardiner played his best hockey under Carlyle in the remaining games of 2011-2012 and this year's playoffs.

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07-17-2013, 05:10 AM
  #21
BayStBullies
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This thread is a complete failure. The OP should watch some hockey games in order to better participate in future discussions.

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07-17-2013, 05:20 AM
  #22
Duke Silver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
Of course he's not free of criticism, but the amount he's receiving, you would think we missed the playoffs again. You should see how the guys at PPP rag on him, they want the guy fired ffs. There's people on this forum who say the same thing, like that Anth93 guy who went as far as saying that Ron Wilson was a better coach.

No coach is perfect, you should've seen how Red Wings fans b-tched about Babcock this year, or how Penguins fans want Bylsma fired, or how Hawks fans wanted Quenneville fired before the second round was even over.

Considering our team made the playoffs for the first time in 9 years, we should temper ourselves a bit before wanting to fire the guy who took us there in his first season.

Anyway Carlyle did just fine with guys like Cam Fowler, Selanne and Andy McDonald in Anaheim as well as Kessel and Kadri and despite the scratches this year Gardiner played his best hockey under Carlyle in the remaining games of 2011-2012 and this year's playoffs.
On the other hand, Carlyle's been given a carte blanche by many who are quick to attribute the lion's share of the reason we made the playoffs to him.

I find myself quite plugged into the goings-on of the NHL and I don't recall many Wings or Hawks fans calling for their coaches heads. Pens, on the other hand, after their abysmal showing against the Bruins, were pretty loud about their hunt for a scapegoat.

Who said anything about firing the guy? Surely you can't be taking the 0.0001% of fans asking for Carlyle's head and attributing that viewpoint to the rest of us who have criticized him for some of his decisions.

I don't understand why you picked Selanne and Kessel. They were both good players far before Carlyle. What about Lupul, who was misused in Anaheim and had strong words for Carlyle after being traded? What about Grabovski, who was misused in Toronto and said the lines of communication with Carlyle weren't open?

You say that last part as if the reason Gardiner played his best hockey was because of Carlyle. I find that to be a stretch. Perhaps he was just developing by himself? He was playing the best hockey of his career since the beginning of this season in the AHL. The concussion derailed things temporarily, but he was ready to step in and make a bigger impact than Kostka or Holzer far before when he was finally called up. It was Carlyle's stubbornness that got him into trouble. In this market, he will get eaten alive if he doesn't learn to admit to and fix mistakes quicker. The whole "Free Jake Gardiner" thing never should have happened.

It's personnel decisions like that, combined with the misuse of certain players, and nonsensical shootout decisions, which may have cost us home ice in the first round or even a division championship. Remember, we were only 5/6 points away.

Carlyle deserves some credit for the Leafs successes, yes. But not as much as some people want to give him.

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Old
07-17-2013, 06:34 AM
  #23
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3 things tipped the scales for Randy.

Kadri hot streak, without it we didn't make the playoffs. His performance to start the season PPG player, tipped at least 8pts for the team. When he cooled down the team performed like a wildcard team.

Reimer, enough said

Komarov and JVR, one was effective at punishing and the other powering through.

RC did things to hurt the team as well. Holzer and Kostka were literally losing the odd game for us on their own poor play.

At this point, we are a bit better perhaps with Clarkson, maybe. Frattin for a time was a game changer. Bolland is no upgrade on Grabo, in fact he was so poor he was shifted to the 4th line in Chicago. Bozak is just Bozak and Kadri could be only as good as the end of the season which was good but not great. We have the same D unless Rielly is brought up.

All in all I see no improvement in team just a different dynamic.

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Old
07-17-2013, 07:38 AM
  #24
7even
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edruga View Post
Lots of complaining going towards a coach that got Toronto into the playoffs.
I think that team got in in spite of Randy, not because of him.

/ducks

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Old
07-17-2013, 08:13 AM
  #25
number72
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Personally I'm pissed Carlyle only plays his skilled enforcers less then 5 minutes a game. I'd like them get upwards of 7 to 10 minutes to offload the forwards who struggle at times against bigger competition

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