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Concern for Carlyle's biases against skill players?

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Old
07-17-2013, 08:16 AM
  #26
Yosho
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People are absolutely nuts to think that Carlyle didn't have anything to do with the success last year.

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07-17-2013, 08:16 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
Of course he's not free of criticism, but the amount he's receiving, you would think we missed the playoffs again. You should see how the guys at PPP rag on him, they want the guy fired ffs. There's people on this forum who say the same thing, like that Anth93 guy who went as far as saying that Ron Wilson was a better coach.

No coach is perfect, you should've seen how Red Wings fans b-tched about Babcock this year, or how Penguins fans want Bylsma fired, or how Hawks fans wanted Quenneville fired before the second round was even over.

Considering our team made the playoffs for the first time in 9 years, we should temper ourselves a bit before wanting to fire the guy who took us there in his first season.

Anyway Carlyle did just fine with guys like Cam Fowler, Selanne and Andy McDonald in Anaheim as well as Kessel and Kadri and despite the scratches this year Gardiner played his best hockey under Carlyle in the remaining games of 2011-2012 and this year's playoffs.
Don't forget Bruins fans wanted Julien fired before game 7 vs the Leafs

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07-17-2013, 08:18 AM
  #28
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Don't forget Bruins fans wanted Julien fired before game 7 vs the Leafs
I bet his termination papers were already drafted midway through the 3rd.

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07-17-2013, 08:20 AM
  #29
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I just get the vibe about him that he plays the skilled guys reluctantly. He would play a guy like Orr 20 minutes a night if he could get away with it.

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07-17-2013, 08:30 AM
  #30
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Despite his criticisms I really like Carlyle as our coach. He seems to be a great motivator, unlike Wilson who would just throw guys under the bus. Carlyle just seems like the type of coach that players want to prove something under.

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07-17-2013, 08:34 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Suntouchable13 View Post
I just get the vibe about him that he plays the skilled guys reluctantly. He would play a guy like Orr 20 minutes a night if he could get away with it.
Can you explain your "vibe" a bit more?

Coaches typically play their best players (if they're performing) because it gives the team the best chance to win.

I'm not sure how anyone could get the feeling that Randy was playing Kessel, Lupul, Kadri and JVR reluctantly.

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07-17-2013, 08:38 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BayStBullies View Post
This thread is a complete failure. The OP should watch some hockey games in order to better participate in future discussions.
I disagree and the opposing comments for and against are proving this. The Leafs just made the playoffs in a 48 game season and were fading badly at the end. I'm not blaming Carlyle just giving some perspective to those having him on a pedestal after a shortened season. It will take a few more years to properly judge Carlyle and Nonis. There will be things we like and some we don't but I think it's fair to make comments either way at this point based on our viewpoints. I am in favour of building a long lasting system and I disagree with those that think the rebuild is over and we can start trading prospects for players. A few here and there if fair to both teams is fine but in my opinion we are far from having a deep system.The trading of our 51st pick this year for example bothers me tremendously because we could have picked Justin Bailey and this is the kind of potential, and yes I know it's potential, we need to risk in "some" of our picks. I know I digress from the Carlyle theme but the next few years of playing and drafting/trading will tell the tale.

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07-17-2013, 08:39 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by veedubn1 View Post
Can you explain your "vibe" a bit more?

Coaches typically play their best players (if they're performing) because it gives the team the best chance to win.

I'm not sure how anyone could get the feeling that Randy was playing Kessel, Lupul, Kadri and JVR reluctantly.
I can't explain. Sorry just the way I feel. I am not trashing the guy. I always wanted him ahead of a guy like Eakins. RC just likes his bangers.

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Old
07-17-2013, 08:51 AM
  #34
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best coach in the league and he will show this again next season

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07-17-2013, 09:38 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by edruga View Post
Lots of complaining going towards a coach that got Toronto into the playoffs.
Yes, it was nice to see the playoffs, but Carlyle was fired in Anaheim, and he won a Cup there.

16 teams made the playoffs, all of those teams had coaches.

I like some of the things he did, but it is inconceivable to believe anyone thinks he is perfect.

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07-17-2013, 10:03 AM
  #36
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Carlyle garnered consideration for coach of the year and the Jack Adams trophy for his performance this past season.

Carlyle's attention to detail and his ferocity at which he line and opportunity matches, allows him to squeeze the most talent out of his team by putting the best players into situations that benefit the Leafs. Without his effort Leafs may not have made the playoffs.

He work overtime in the playoffs, as he made every effort humanly possible to get Kessel away from Chara at each and every opportunity presented. This was to get Leafs skilled player away from the checking and attention he was receiving and allowed him some individual success which allowed the team to have some success against a much better opponent.

Randy's coaching tactics closed the talent level and made for a pretty good series as his underdog Leafs put up a respectable fight. If he didn't do his part and simply rolled lines like a lot of teams do the Leafs would be less successful.

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07-17-2013, 10:10 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by DeathToAllButMetal View Post
There is no Carlyle bias against skilled players. Sorry, but Grabovski just flat-out sucks. He's selfish and stupid and couldn't get the job done no matter what role Carlyle gave him. Pretty damn obvious what his rep is around the NHL, too. It's a lock that nobody seems interested in giving him serious money, or he'd have been signed by now. He'll wind up in the KHL very soon, maybe after another one- or two-year contract in the NHL with some suckers, maybe this summer.
oh yeah im sure his canadian wife born and raised in toronto cant wait to uproot everything she knows so she can go live in bum****, russia while her new husband is usually hundreds if not thousands of kilometres away.



Seriously guys. at least think about what you post before you go blabbering about cluelessly. Grabo will finish his career in the nhl.

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07-17-2013, 10:19 AM
  #38
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Kadri's emergence, and the consistent production of Kessel, Bozak and [insert player here] kind of forced Carlyle's hand in playing Grabovski as a shutdown guy. I don't care what stats say about Bozak and Grabo: if Kessel is producing with Bozak as his middle man, arbitrarily putting Grabo (who hasn't played with Kessel in any meaningful way) in the 1C slot seems like a poor coaching decision to me. It's not like Bozie went on an extended dry stretch, did he..? (correct me if I'm wrong)

I haven't watched enough Duck's hockey to comment on Carlyle's coaching, but based on last season (and the acquisition of Bolland), at least one line on a Carlyle coached team is going to be a shutdown line. Grabo kinda slotted into that position as the best available centre. Does this mean he didn't have a place on the team and should've been bought out? Probably not, but it's not like Randy made the final decision on that anyway.


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Old
07-17-2013, 10:19 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Northernguy10 View Post
I disagree and the opposing comments for and against are proving this. The Leafs just made the playoffs in a 48 game season and were fading badly at the end. .
They finished their last 10 games with a .550 winning percentage. (.593 for the season)

I disagree that can be described as "fading badly".

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07-17-2013, 10:23 AM
  #40
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The scoreline doesn't really show it, but the last 10 games of the season were pretty bad from a team-effort perspective. I remember Reimer single-handedly bailing us out in a few of those games.

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07-17-2013, 10:27 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by edruga View Post
Lots of complaining going towards a coach that got Toronto into the playoffs.
To be fair I think some of Carlyle's biases hurt us at points during the season as well.

Giving all that ice time to Kostka and Fraser at the start of the playoffs was a big mistake.

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07-17-2013, 10:38 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Northernguy10 View Post
I disagree and the opposing comments for and against are proving this. The Leafs just made the playoffs in a 48 game season and were fading badly at the end. I'm not blaming Carlyle just giving some perspective to those having him on a pedestal after a shortened season. It will take a few more years to properly judge Carlyle and Nonis. There will be things we like and some we don't but I think it's fair to make comments either way at this point based on our viewpoints. I am in favour of building a long lasting system and I disagree with those that think the rebuild is over and we can start trading prospects for players. A few here and there if fair to both teams is fine but in my opinion we are far from having a deep system.The trading of our 51st pick this year for example bothers me tremendously because we could have picked Justin Bailey and this is the kind of potential, and yes I know it's potential, we need to risk in "some" of our picks. I know I digress from the Carlyle theme but the next few years of playing and drafting/trading will tell the tale.
There is no few years, he went all in between Bozak, Clarkson and Bernier. It depleted our cap space, that's all in especially looking at the contracts.

Bozak 4.25 not moveable

Clarkson 5.25 if he doesn't perform not move able

Bernier perhaps but we need to see.

Bolland rental

This is pretty much it he didn't address the D or the C in a major way. They don't make it they are both probably gone, Carlyle and Nonis.

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07-17-2013, 10:52 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by VoicexOfxReason View Post
oh yeah im sure his canadian wife born and raised in toronto cant wait to uproot everything she knows so she can go live in bum****, russia while her new husband is usually hundreds if not thousands of kilometres away.



Seriously guys. at least think about what you post before you go blabbering about cluelessly. Grabo will finish his career in the nhl.
I went to go google his wife to see if she was in fact from Toronto and I found out that Grabovski was born in Germany..... Mind=blown

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07-17-2013, 10:59 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
They finished their last 10 games with a .550 winning percentage. (.593 for the season)

I disagree that can be described as "fading badly".
I know I already posted against this, but I went back to look at the boxscore of the games we won in April, and sweet baby jesus

Apr 6th Tor-2 NJD-1, outshot us 28-18
Apr 8th Tor-4 Rags-3, outshot 34-28
Apr 13th Tor-5 Mtl-1, outshot 37-28
Apr 15th Tor-2 NJD-1, outshot 32-13
Apr 20th Tor-4 Ott-1, outshot 50-22
Apr 25th Tor-4 Florida-0, outshot 34-17

It's hard to say we were fading because we weren't losing, but in the games we won in April, we were outshot 215-126

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07-17-2013, 11:02 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by theremedial View Post
There is no few years, he went all in between Bozak, Clarkson and Bernier. It depleted our cap space, that's all in especially looking at the contracts.

Bozak 4.25 not moveable

Clarkson 5.25 if he doesn't perform not move able

Bernier perhaps but we need to see.

Bolland rental

This is pretty much it he didn't address the D or the C in a major way. They don't make it they are both probably gone, Carlyle and Nonis.
Caps expected to increase, once it hits around 80 again those contracts will be peanuts (5%=3.2 now and 6.5%=4.16 now respectively). Looking at the past CBA, the cap rose 12% a year. If that trend continues, we'd likely hit that 80 mill mark by year 2 of each respective deal. Assuming deviation in the trend, even if 80 isnt hit by year 4 thats still a reasonable time to trade each player.

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07-17-2013, 11:44 AM
  #46
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I dont think Carlyle was too biased against Niedermeyer, Getzlaf or Perry when he was in Anaheim and just look at how they turned out that year. What he doesnt want is skilled OR tough players who put themselves before the system that he is trying to implement, which is clearly effective.

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07-17-2013, 12:55 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by P0LiUM View Post
I know I already posted against this, but I went back to look at the boxscore of the games we won in April, and sweet baby jesus

Apr 6th Tor-2 NJD-1, outshot us 28-18
Apr 8th Tor-4 Rags-3, outshot 34-28
Apr 13th Tor-5 Mtl-1, outshot 37-28
Apr 15th Tor-2 NJD-1, outshot 32-13
Apr 20th Tor-4 Ott-1, outshot 50-22
Apr 25th Tor-4 Florida-0, outshot 34-17

It's hard to say we were fading because we weren't losing, but in the games we won in April, we were outshot 215-126
what's the comparison of quality scoring chances?

if they are shooting everything from the perimeter and blue line, who cares?

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07-17-2013, 12:58 PM
  #48
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Carlyle does make some questionable choices with personal but hopefully next year he's got a better idea of who should play and who shouldn't.

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07-17-2013, 01:35 PM
  #49
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Randy Caryle having a bias against skilled players is about as true as Burke having a bias for American players over Canadian ones.

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07-17-2013, 01:45 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by wulfio View Post
what's the comparison of quality scoring chances?

if they are shooting everything from the perimeter and blue line, who cares?
Oh, I'm not going to go too crazy and track down all the detailed stats for the games. I just remember watching those games and thinking "gee, if Remier was playing any worse we probably wouldn't have won this."

You're right: its very possible there weren't a lot of great scoring chances on those shots. I still don't think a team is playing very well if they're being outshot almost 2-1.

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