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Concern for Carlyle's biases against skill players?

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Old
07-17-2013, 01:45 PM
  #51
zeke
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Carlyle was hit and miss last year, and yes I do worry about his bias against skill players. I think Randy may have just got a little caught up in the whole re-shaping the Leafs image into tough guys last year and went a little more extreme with it than he usually does. In the past he's been much more willing to utilize the value of smaller skilled players than he was last year.

I hope the massive improvement he witnessed in the playoffs from switching Fraser to Gardiner, and McClaren to MacArthur, has taught him a valuable lesson for this year, at least.

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07-17-2013, 01:57 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Carlyle was hit and miss last year, and yes I do worry about his bias against skill players. I think Randy may have just got a little caught up in the whole re-shaping the Leafs image into tough guys last year and went a little more extreme with it than he usually does. In the past he's been much more willing to utilize the value of smaller skilled players than he was last year.

I hope the massive improvement he witnessed in the playoffs from switching Fraser to Gardiner, and McClaren to MacArthur, has taught him a valuable lesson for this year, at least.
He is to stubborn to learn, that's the problem. It's his biggest weakness. If you don't agree with that you can at least agree. He learns to slowly. Holzer etc

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07-17-2013, 02:23 PM
  #53
Ricky Bobby
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Grabo has one of the worst hockey IQs in the league. I wish Carlyle could have helped Grabo but sometimes coaches and players just don't work out together.

Carlyle matches up lines more than any other coach in the league which means players are given clear roles on a team.

Kessel, Lupul, Kadri, JVR are skill guys. Just like Selanne, McDonald for the Ducks. None of these players is expected to be physical forces but their expected to put up big points well also being defensively accountable.

One of the problems with the Leafs in the last decade was having good players on bad teams like Grabo, Stajan, CMac, Hagman given too much playing time. None of them are good enough to be given big minutes as skilled players yet not tough enough for the opposition to play against. Carlyle tried to make Grabo (who lost his role because Kadri emerged) tougher to play against.

Franson is a skill player and he adjsuted his game to be tougher to play against in front of the net, reading plays better and was rewarded cause of it.

Gardiner wasn't the same player after the concussion and took a while to get back on track. For those blaming Carlyle then also blame Eakins cause Gardiner wasn't the same player in the AHL right after that injury.

Liles is the one player I wish Carlyle gave a better chance to because I thought our team was a lot better when he played and he did try to be more physically engaged by doing things like stepping up at the blueline, blocking shots, etc.

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07-17-2013, 02:35 PM
  #54
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How's San Fran ?

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07-17-2013, 02:44 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by P0LiUM View Post
Oh, I'm not going to go too crazy and track down all the detailed stats for the games. I just remember watching those games and thinking "gee, if Remier was playing any worse we probably wouldn't have won this."

You're right: its very possible there weren't a lot of great scoring chances on those shots. I still don't think a team is playing very well if they're being outshot almost 2-1.
I remember a few of those games, especially the NJD one, that one was all due to reimer being a superhero.

But thats how good teams pull through, sometimes the goaltender wins it for you, sometimes you outscore your problems but you just win anyway you can.

and yes most of the time the scoring chances on the other team were bad, and then we would come back in the 3rd and destroy them.

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07-17-2013, 02:45 PM
  #56
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Aside from Bozak being at the top because he plays both PP and PK, looks to me like there's no ice time bias against the skilled players.

Player TOI/G
Tyler Bozak 20:18
Phil Kessel 19:48
James van Riemsdyk 19:12
Nikolai Kulemin 16:44
Joffrey Lupul 16:07
Nazem Kadri 16:03
Mikhail Grabovski 15:34
Jay McClement 15:14
Clarke MacArthur 14:54
Leo Komarov 13:56
Matt Frattin 13:13
Ryan Hamilton 10:51
Joe Colborne 9:07
Colton Orr 6:23
Frazer McLaren 5:09

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07-17-2013, 06:28 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
Aside from Bozak being at the top because he plays both PP and PK, looks to me like there's no ice time bias against the skilled players.

Player TOI/G
Tyler Bozak 20:18
Phil Kessel 19:48
James van Riemsdyk 19:12
Nikolai Kulemin 16:44
Joffrey Lupul 16:07
Nazem Kadri 16:03
Mikhail Grabovski 15:34
Jay McClement 15:14
Clarke MacArthur 14:54
Leo Komarov 13:56
Matt Frattin 13:13
Ryan Hamilton 10:51
Joe Colborne 9:07
Colton Orr 6:23
Frazer McLaren 5:09

TOI doesn't tell the whole story. Zone starts, quality of competition, etc.

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07-17-2013, 06:36 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Avec Fromage View Post
TOI doesn't tell the whole story. Zone starts, quality of competition, etc.
I will bet if you check those stats the result will be the same.

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Old
07-17-2013, 06:55 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by sangreale View Post
I will bet if you check those stats the result will be the same.
They really aren't. It's well documented.

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07-17-2013, 07:06 PM
  #60
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Not really a bias, look at the D:

PMD's were sat in favour of strong D players.
RC wants the whole team, or most of it to play more responsibly.

Its why there is talk of Granberg>Rielly in terms of making the lineup. We wanted a 2nd pairing guy, instead of going for the 34-36 yr old greybeards, they are still looking to fill that slot from within,
with a 21 yr old.

Its nothing against skill players, but he does need certain to play certain roles. It kind of goes back last year, when many people here said we don't have the personnel to play RC's style. Well the personnel did change, and it wasn't optimum. The personnel has changed even more. Its obvious RC wants to bash his way forward, as the Ducks did in 2007.

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07-17-2013, 07:15 PM
  #61
Daisy Jane
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okay, in the middle of baking birthday goodies so i can't really go into depth here but:

Randy would be the first one to tell you he made mistakes last season, but he has a vision for the team, and he wants EVERYONE to adhere to it.

If you aren't adhering to it, you aren't going to play. the end.

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07-17-2013, 07:21 PM
  #62
JB Maple Leafs
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Carlyle didn't put Grabo into a 3rd line checking role. It was Kadri's skilled play that beat out Grabo for the 2nd line scoring spot. After Kadri proved himself there was no more top 6 role for Grabo. Blame Kadri......he was awesome last year and better than Grabo ever was in that role!

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Old
07-17-2013, 07:31 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by JB Maple Leafs View Post
Carlyle didn't put Grabo into a 3rd line checking role. It was Kadri's skilled play that beat out Grabo for the 2nd line scoring spot. After Kadri proved himself there was no more top 6 role for Grabo. Blame Kadri......he was awesome last year and better than Grabo ever was in that role!
Kadri was sheltered early on and struggled tremedously in the last 20~ games when he got a bigger role.

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07-17-2013, 09:44 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avec Fromage View Post
Kadri was sheltered early on and struggled tremedously in the last 20~ games when he got a bigger role.
Sheltered or not at the beginning he scored 44 pts in 48 games. Grabo has never come close to that production. Enough said.

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07-17-2013, 09:56 PM
  #65
GordieHoweHatTrick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P0LiUM View Post
I know I already posted against this, but I went back to look at the boxscore of the games we won in April, and sweet baby jesus

Apr 6th Tor-2 NJD-1, outshot us 28-18
Apr 8th Tor-4 Rags-3, outshot 34-28
Apr 13th Tor-5 Mtl-1, outshot 37-28
Apr 15th Tor-2 NJD-1, outshot 32-13
Apr 20th Tor-4 Ott-1, outshot 50-22
Apr 25th Tor-4 Florida-0, outshot 34-17

It's hard to say we were fading because we weren't losing, but in the games we won in April, we were outshot 215-126
Thats a hell of a stat.

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07-17-2013, 10:03 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by edruga View Post
Lots of complaining going towards a coach that got Toronto into the playoffs.
Such a fallacy. Our players got us into the playoffs.

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07-17-2013, 10:03 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Daisy Joy View Post
okay, in the middle of baking birthday goodies so i can't really go into depth here but:

Randy would be the first one to tell you he made mistakes last season, but he has a vision for the team, and he wants EVERYONE to adhere to it.

If you aren't adhering to it, you aren't going to play. the end.
Whatcha got cookin? Read three pages and thats where my head ended up.

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07-17-2013, 10:07 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Avec Fromage View Post
Kadri was sheltered early on and struggled tremedously in the last 20~ games when he got a bigger role.
Yeah, he struggled all the way to 44 points. Ahum in 48 games

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07-17-2013, 10:12 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Avec Fromage View Post
They really aren't. It's well documented.
Well documented yet still absent from any of your arguments.

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07-17-2013, 10:28 PM
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Kadri had a 2pts in 8gms slump after the don cherry kiss, but finished the season strong with 7pts in his last 11gms.

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07-17-2013, 10:32 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by The Legend View Post
Such a fallacy. Our players got us into the playoffs.
The same players (pretty much) that led us to consistent bottom 5 finishes. I guess Jay McClement, Mark Fraser, Kostka, and Holzer really made the difference.

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07-17-2013, 10:33 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Legend View Post
Such a fallacy. Our players got us into the playoffs.

because... the coach has nothing to do with it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
Whatcha got cookin? Read three pages and thats where my head ended up.
Cinnamon Crunch Muffins (sour cream muffins, with cinnamon crunchies baked inside, topped with more cinnamon crunchies), carrot cake. more goodies will be made this weekend. (most likely pie, aranchai (fried risotto balls), meatball burgers and pretzel frozen hot chocolates. (I only turn 30 once LOL).


I wasn't too worried about the shots on goal, because the quality of the shots weren't that high. I could see why it was concerning to like everyone, but the leafs generally were always a team that were outshot on a daily basis.

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07-17-2013, 10:42 PM
  #73
sangreale
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Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
Well documented yet still absent from any of your arguments.
Lol I took him at his word. But I was wondering?

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Old
07-17-2013, 10:46 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB Maple Leafs View Post
Sheltered or not at the beginning he scored 44 pts in 48 games. Grabo has never come close to that production. Enough said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
Yeah, he struggled all the way to 44 points. Ahum in 48 games
1 goal, 5 points in the last 12 regular season games + invisible in the playoffs. Not to say he wasn't excellent early on, but he wasn't ready for the tougher competition and it showed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
Well documented yet still absent from any of your arguments.
It's been mentioned countless times by fans and reporters (e.g., Mirtle) alike. Don't feel like looking it up again. I believe he had the highest QoC of all forwards (read an article mention he was top-3 on the team, but that includes defencemen), and most defensive zone starts, and was among the least offensive zone starts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
The same players (pretty much) that led us to consistent bottom 5 finishes. I guess Jay McClement, Mark Fraser, Kostka, and Holzer really made the difference.
McClement was tremendous. You're also ignoring Reimer's bounce back, additions of JvR, Komarov, & Kadri to the lineup. RC's system and coaching was a big part of it of course, but he is very stuck in his ways.

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Old
07-17-2013, 10:54 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by JB Maple Leafs View Post
Carlyle didn't put Grabo into a 3rd line checking role. It was Kadri's skilled play that beat out Grabo for the 2nd line scoring spot. After Kadri proved himself there was no more top 6 role for Grabo. Blame Kadri......he was awesome last year and better than Grabo ever was in that role!
Grab was given more ice time ( ES TOI) during the playoffs than Kadri. He was obviously not being underutilized. Instead, Randy was expecting him to produce like Bergeron or Zetterberg who are core shut down guys that can dominate in the offensive zone.

Did we see JVR complain because his QoC was the highest? Likewise, did Colborne complain. In JVR's case, he was producing at a point per game pace, and was used less on the defensive zone than our defenceman Gardiner.

Keep in mind that I'm not knocking Gardiner. He's better off being given 60% OZone start like Karlsson. If we had the Paul Coffey, you'd do the same, because someone like him will win you games. However, we have a better player in Kadri to play in a more offensive oriented role. Besides, if Kadri is Gilmour, we're going to be seeing him relied upon heavily against top lines. Dougie, like Giroux, can produce in that role.

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