HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Notices

Concern for Carlyle's biases against skill players?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-17-2013, 11:04 PM
  #76
leafspring*
 
leafspring*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,361
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisy Joy View Post
because... the coach has nothing to do with it?



Cinnamon Crunch Muffins (sour cream muffins, with cinnamon crunchies baked inside, topped with more cinnamon crunchies), carrot cake. more goodies will be made this weekend. (most likely pie, aranchai (fried risotto balls), meatball burgers and pretzel frozen hot chocolates. (I only turn 30 once LOL).


I wasn't too worried about the shots on goal, because the quality of the shots weren't that high. I could see why it was concerning to like everyone, but the leafs generally were always a team that were outshot on a daily basis.
Well happy birthday firstly and now i have the munchies. I'm not even gonna ask how you bake a muffin in a muffin lol. I'm jealous i won't get to eat all that delicious food.


leafspring* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2013, 11:16 PM
  #77
Christ
Registered User
 
Christ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,738
vCash: 500
Did Kadri, a skill guy, not displace Grabo which forced him into a checking line? That Kadri outplayed Grabo should in no way be held against Caryle, nor should anyone feel bad for Grabo. Grabs lost his position on the second line because he was not producing, something that also held true in the playoffs, despite his improved effort level. It is not like Grabo was never given opportunity or linemates to produce, he just failed...

Christ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2013, 11:35 PM
  #78
The_Chosen_One
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,673
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
Did Kadri, a skill guy, not displace Grabo which forced him into a checking line? That Kadri outplayed Grabo should in no way be held against Caryle, nor should anyone feel bad for Grabo. Grabs lost his position on the second line because he was not producing, something that also held true in the playoffs, despite his improved effort level. It is not like Grabo was never given opportunity or linemates to produce, he just failed...
I don't think Grabovski was a checking line guy. He was expected to fulfill a Zetterberg role and couldn't do it. You just don't give checking guys second in TOI and first in ES TOI in the playoffs. Carlyle does not want to his team spending too much time in the defensive zone.

The_Chosen_One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-17-2013, 11:41 PM
  #79
The Legend
Stamkos in 2016
 
The Legend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
The same players (pretty much) that led us to consistent bottom 5 finishes. I guess Jay McClement, Mark Fraser, Kostka, and Holzer really made the difference.
James Reimer, nazem Kadri, jvr?

The Legend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 12:03 AM
  #80
leafspring*
 
leafspring*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,361
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ View Post
Did Kadri, a skill guy, not displace Grabo which forced him into a checking line? That Kadri outplayed Grabo should in no way be held against Caryle, nor should anyone feel bad for Grabo. Grabs lost his position on the second line because he was not producing, something that also held true in the playoffs, despite his improved effort level. It is not like Grabo was never given opportunity or linemates to produce, he just failed...
Grabo was a pain in the arse in hindsight.

Your right kadri out played him and Carlyle favoured Naz if he held up his end of the bargain. Grabo took a pounding but, his exit strategy from 2 teams now is pretty telling.

I am waiting to see if another battle between Grabo and a leaf player happens. I think he isn't liked much. He never had anyone jump in to help him when it got rough really. Thats a red flag.


Last edited by leafspring*: 07-18-2013 at 12:41 AM.
leafspring* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 07:05 AM
  #81
egd27
#freethebigpicture
 
egd27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avec Fromage View Post
It's been mentioned countless times by fans and reporters (e.g., Mirtle) alike. Don't feel like looking it up again. I believe he had the highest QoC of all forwards (read an article mention he was top-3 on the team, but that includes defencemen), and most defensive zone starts, and was among the least offensive zone starts.
It seems that your original premise "Carlyle's biases against skilled players" was basically a thinly veiled attempt to assert that "Carlyle didn't use Grabovski properly".

So he had the highest QoC....someone had too and he was the best option.

He had the highest percentage of D-zone, starts.....would you prefer our "scoring" line or our rookie centre take more D-zone face offs?

IMO, Grabovski did okay in the role he was forced to play, not great, but okay.

My question to you is this:

Given the personnel, what were Carlyle's options as to who should have been playing the "shutdown line" role?

egd27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 07:13 AM
  #82
Jtabo
Registered User
 
Jtabo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greater Toronto Area
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,622
vCash: 500
In response to the OP, Gardiner was not him self after that concussion. He was sent down for a conditioning stint and by the time playoffs rolled around he was one of our most relied upon dmen. Grabovski came in thinking everything would be handed to him. He wasn't producing and Kadri was so he lost his spot on the second line. All our other forwards, JVR Lupul Kadri Kessel, for example, did just fine under Carlyle. They all have good heads on their shoulders. Grabo didn't, and my suspicions were only confirmed with how he reacted after the buyout. As for Kostka and Holzer, I didn't like them on our team either, but who were we supposed to play instead? Komisarek is too slow and not as good as either of them, Gardiner and Gunnar were hurt, and they are probably better options to play with Dion than Liles would have been. Hell our D was so thin and injury riddled that we had to add OByrne. Your over reacting and creating an issue where there isn't one.

/thread

Jtabo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 07:38 AM
  #83
Yosho
Logic
 
Yosho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kitchener, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,347
vCash: 500
At the end of the day, why should anyone care who gets what minutes?

Did the team find success? Yes.
Did they find more success than they have under any other coach in nearly a decade? Yes.
Did young roster players improve and continue to get chances? Yes
Did the important players play important minutes and lead the team? Yes

Wasting my finger muscles typing this post.

Yosho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 07:42 AM
  #84
Pi
Registered User
 
Pi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,941
vCash: 100
No. I am not concerned at all.

Perry? 50 goal scorer + Hart Trophy.
Getzlaf? #1C
Kessel? Elite #1RW.
Lupul? Plays even better now than he did under Wilson.
JvR? Just had his best year.
Kadri? Just had his best year.

Carlyle knows the value of offense and he gives his stars plenty of minutes and responsibility to be successful.

Don't let Gardiner's year fool you into thinking that he hates skill players.

Pi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 08:03 AM
  #85
jmart21
MISC!!!
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: All Over The Place
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
It seems that your original premise "Carlyle's biases against skilled players" was basically a thinly veiled attempt to assert that "Carlyle didn't use Grabovski properly".

So he had the highest QoC....someone had too and he was the best option.

He had the highest percentage of D-zone, starts.....would you prefer our "scoring" line or our rookie centre take more D-zone face offs?

IMO, Grabovski did okay in the role he was forced to play, not great, but okay.

My question to you is this:

Given the personnel, what were Carlyle's options as to who should have been playing the "shutdown line" role?
Pretty good response. Who's gonna play that role if Grabo doesn't...Kadri? I can imagine many people here would be irate about that and go on about Carlyle having a bias towards skilled players or something.

jmart21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 08:22 AM
  #86
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 55,596
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
Pretty good response. Who's gonna play that role if Grabo doesn't...Kadri? I can imagine many people here would be irate about that and go on about Carlyle having a bias towards skilled players or something.
Grabovski was probably the 2nd. best player for the role. Bozak would have been better at it (IMO) but Bozak was the 1st. line center as he was better at that position as well.

Kadri obviously wasn't going to be a shutdown centerman, and McClement played his role and PK'd.

It was not a punishment, but it appears some fans didn't understand the role and got too caught up in the money when there was no cap concern to be worried about. Going forward it became a cap issue because they wanted to sign (and overpay) a player who they hope is a good complementary player in Clarkson, along with the acquisition of a (hopefully) shutdown centerman in Bolland.

Carlyle does like to have a strong line to play against the other team, and may give more ice time to a line normally considered a 3rd. line. As some have mentioned it is like he plays a top offensive line 1st., a top defensive line 2nd., and then a scoring line 3rd. and energy line 4th..

ES TOI/g
Playoffs:
Grabovski
Bozak
Lupul
Kulemin

Regular Season:
Kessel
Bozak
van Riemsdyk
Kulemin
Grabovski

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA3LN_8hjM8.

Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
ULF_55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 01:11 PM
  #87
leafspring*
 
leafspring*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,361
vCash: 500
Carlyle done the best he could with the assets he had i think. Grabo had as much ice time as kadri did last year. He simply didn't make the most of it. He was a expensive cap hit from day one. That production with the carrot dangling of a easy way out of that cap hit was just to much temptation for any GM.

Had grabo put up a 15/15= 30pts season, it might have been a whole different world.Justification for buying him out would be very weak and most likely our current cap position would be very weak also. Losing that contract after a poor season is a blessing in disguise. Envision that that buy-out did not happen for a second?

Hopefully this year Liles builds some trade value/or simply interest. I don't actually mind Liles but,he has had no luck here. We have jake/morgan which tends to make me want them playing.

No coach is perfect and Carlyle has a identity for the team i like.


Last edited by leafspring*: 07-18-2013 at 04:15 PM.
leafspring* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 02:16 PM
  #88
Clark4Ever
Registered User
 
Clark4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: T.O.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,240
vCash: 500
Carlyle has no bias against skill players. Ask Kessel, Kadri, JVR, and Lupul.

Carlyle does however have a bias against players that don't perform despite being given the opportunity to do so.

Clark4Ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 03:28 PM
  #89
GordieHoweHatTrick
Registered User
 
GordieHoweHatTrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,821
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Legend View Post
James Reimer, nazem Kadri, jvr?
Reimer was with the team when we were bottom-5 but I'll give you Kadri and JvR. So you believe a sophomore Kadri, JvR, McClement and some journeymen made the difference between a bottom-5 team in the league and the 5th place team in the Eastern Conference? The Coach had little to do with it?

GordieHoweHatTrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 04:19 PM
  #90
leafspring*
 
leafspring*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,361
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Reimer was with the team when we were bottom-5 but I'll give you Kadri and JvR. So you believe a sophomore Kadri, JvR, McClement and some journeymen made the difference between a bottom-5 team in the league and the 5th place team in the Eastern Conference? The Coach had little to do with it?
Its a compliment to all of them because,all the plans in the world would be no good to the coaching staff if the players don't execute it properly.That bench was always busy and we took very few bench minors considering all the changes on the fly.

They are a nice working group/team. Team includes everyone,to me anyway.

leafspring* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 04:43 PM
  #91
Tak7
Registered User
 
Tak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: GTA or the UK
Posts: 6,685
vCash: 500
I find it humorous that people are constantly willing to hammer Carlyle on his handling of Gardiner when he didn't play, but never give him praise for how Gardiner played when he DID play.

Gardiner was great in the playoffs. That, to me, means that Carlyle handled his asset well. The Gardiner we saw in the playoffs, was a million times better than the Gardiner that we saw during the season.

They were patient with him, and it paid off.

Tak7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 05:00 PM
  #92
dballislife2
Registered User
 
dballislife2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 631
vCash: 500
skill - kessel, kadri, lupul
size - jvr, kulemin
toughness - clarkson, bolland
intangibles - bozak, mcclement

our top 9 gots it all...thats what u need to win

dballislife2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 05:09 PM
  #93
egd27
#freethebigpicture
 
egd27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,718
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
I find it humorous that people are constantly willing to hammer Carlyle on his handling of Gardiner when he didn't play, but never give him praise for how Gardiner played when he DID play.

Gardiner was great in the playoffs. That, to me, means that Carlyle handled his asset well. The Gardiner we saw in the playoffs, was a million times better than the Gardiner that we saw during the season.

They were patient with him, and it paid off.
Doesn't work that way around here. If a young player performs well, he obviously didn't need any development time and should have been playing sooner.

See Kadri, Nazeem

egd27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 05:20 PM
  #94
leafspring*
 
leafspring*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,361
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
Doesn't work that way around here. If a young player performs well, he obviously didn't need any development time and should have been playing sooner.

See Kadri, Nazeem
The one thing you can give Wilson credit for is lighting a fire under Kadri lol. Wilson nit picked/insulted/condemed kadri game to the point where it was either prove him wrong or listen to more.

I couldn't think of a way it all could have turned out better though. He has developed into a possible Selke trophy candidate down the road here.His defensive side of the game that was brutally hammered by Wilson was a planned attack by wilson i think.

Thanks ronnie ole boy Someone needs to help Naz with dominating faceoffs before his full potential comes out. hopefully that only takes 2 more years.

leafspring* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-18-2013, 05:58 PM
  #95
Mr Scarface*
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 14,906
vCash: 500
Hahahahaaa It's winning hockey ala Carlyle so of course I'm not concirned! Our tough and heavy minded team will not be easy to play against at all. Getting Bolland, Clarkson... just wow. More Defensively minded team who plays that hard game.... I can't ask anything else. Just watch and enjoy this whole thing.

Easily the toughest lineup in NHL hockey.

Mr Scarface* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2013, 12:07 AM
  #96
mr grieves
Registered User
 
mr grieves's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wulfio View Post
what's the comparison of quality scoring chances?

if they are shooting everything from the perimeter and blue line, who cares?

If you'd watched those April games you'd know the shots weren't from the blue line but that Reimer stole several games down the stretch. The way the team got hemmed into its zone and didn't have a transition besides chip it up the boards, basically after the Montreal blowout (4 goals on 5 shots in the first or something?), I'm sure they'd have been under .500 had it not been for Reimer.

People do recall the team had the chance to challenge for the NE division, right? That we would've had home ice against the Habs had they not screwed up the last games of the season?

mr grieves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2013, 12:22 AM
  #97
mr grieves
Registered User
 
mr grieves's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
Carlyle done the best he could with the assets he had i think. Grabo had as much ice time as kadri did last year. He simply didn't make the most of it. He was a expensive cap hit from day one. That production with the carrot dangling of a easy way out of that cap hit was just to much temptation for any GM.

Had grabo put up a 15/15= 30pts season, it might have been a whole different world.Justification for buying him out would be very weak and most likely our current cap position would be very weak also. Losing that contract after a poor season is a blessing in disguise. Envision that that buy-out did not happen for a second?

Hopefully this year Liles builds some trade value/or simply interest. I don't actually mind Liles but,he has had no luck here. We have jake/morgan which tends to make me want them playing.

No coach is perfect and Carlyle has a identity for the team i like.

Well, the team wouldn't have had the cap space to sign Bozak and Clarkson to significant overpayments and had more flexibility in locking up their good young assets and addressing a need on defense (need a tough shutdown type who can also make a respectable first pass). Seems to me Nonis traded one bad contract for two worse ones.

mr grieves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2013, 09:12 AM
  #98
The Legend
Stamkos in 2016
 
The Legend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Reimer was with the team when we were bottom-5 but I'll give you Kadri and JvR. So you believe a sophomore Kadri, JvR, McClement and some journeymen made the difference between a bottom-5 team in the league and the 5th place team in the Eastern Conference? The Coach had little to do with it?
The Toronto Maple Leafs had 5 more points in the first 48 games of 2012/2013 than they had in the first 48 games of 2011/2012. It's extremely likely that a "sophomore Kadri, JvR, McClement and some journeymen" were responsible for that. James Reimer also had a save percentage of 0.924 in 2012/2013. It was 0.900 in 2011/2012. I assume that could possibly affect the results as well.

I'm very sorry that the facts don't fit your narrative.

The Legend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2013, 09:13 AM
  #99
The Legend
Stamkos in 2016
 
The Legend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
Doesn't work that way around here. If a young player performs well, he obviously didn't need any development time and should have been playing sooner.

See Kadri, Nazeem
Not sure who "Nazeem" is but I have no clue what kind of development Gardiner gained from not playing Game 1 against the Bruins.

The Legend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-19-2013, 09:14 AM
  #100
The Legend
Stamkos in 2016
 
The Legend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dballislife2 View Post
skill - kessel, kadri, lupul
size - jvr, kulemin
toughness - clarkson, bolland
intangibles - bozak, mcclement

our top 9 gots it all...thats what u need to win
Our first line centre brings "intangibles" to the table? Phenomenal.

The Legend is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:14 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.