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Kessel and Phaneuf's raise

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Old
07-17-2013, 08:54 AM
  #26
416Leafer
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Everyone is gonna hate Phaneuf's next contract...

7 x 7
I wouldn't "hate" it.

I would think he was overpaid, but not as badly overpaid as Clarksons contract.

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07-17-2013, 08:58 AM
  #27
Cor
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7x7 is fine for Dion. Not overpaid at all

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07-17-2013, 09:27 AM
  #28
egd27
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Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
7x7 is fine for Dion. Not overpaid at all
Agreed

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07-17-2013, 09:29 AM
  #29
Dangles McGavin
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Dion better not get 7 mil per

6-6.5 range is where he should be.

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07-17-2013, 09:31 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Dangles McGavin View Post
Dion better not get 7 mil per

6-6.5 range is where he should be.
Why?

What makes him 1-1.5M less valuable then Ryan Suter? A player I wouldn't take over Dion?

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07-17-2013, 09:40 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
7x7 is fine for Dion. Not overpaid at all
Exactly....

I cannot begin to comprehend what is going through the minds of some of these posters.

There are so many issues with a lot of the comparables you guys are pulling up, things like: Contract status of the player when they were signed (RFA: people simply don't understand the effect this has on the contract signed), year the contract was signed (what was the cap? what was the projection for the cap in future years?), length (particularly with cap circumventing contracts like keiths for example, that's not allowed anymore, so you'll see alot of what many of you will see as "overpayment" contracts), any outside factors (philly's offer sheet inflating webers 14 year [!!!!!!!] contract), how much the player likes the city and team (some players take hometown discounts to play/stay where they want), importance to the team, as well as others I can't muster at the moment.

So now that we've seen these factors, lets look at this as if we were Phaneuf agent. Which will effect Phaneuf's next contract, and how might they affect it?:

- He's a full UFA and as such will be paid like one. He has the ability to walk away and exercise his options.

- The cap is projected to go up more than ever before (we will know more about how much when Phaneuf is due to go UFA). Even in a year where the league was affected by a lockout, profits went up. Teams will have more to spend on players so agents don't only look at this year and next, but the projections in the future, so their players salaries stay somewhat competitive with those signed in the near future during the contract.

- No more cap circumventing contracts. So if you re-sign with your current team, you are capped at a maximum of 8 years. This will no doubt increase the price of top UFAs.

- He's just entering his peak (particularly for a defenseman). Most defensemen peak later than forwards, experience plays a huge part in this, so the agent will argue that Phaneuf has more to give.

- On THIS team, he is number one defenseman, on most others a candidate for the top pairing. He eats up minutes like one, however his performance seems to be affected by that. The circumstances Phaneuf has been placed in have been rather sub-par; playing in front of straight up ridiculous goalies (cheers Toskala), playing with rookie and at best 2nd pairing defensemen, or playing under a joke of a coach whose idea of defense if offense, offense, offense.

- He's the (current) captain and leader of the team (deserving or not, this will have an effect on the contract due to the added responsibility that comes with said status).


If he signs here ,he'll get at least 7 x 7, unless Nonis is some sort of contract negotiating genius, or if Phaneuf legitimately loves playing here so much so that he'd take a discount to stay.

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07-17-2013, 09:40 AM
  #32
frankthetank91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Why?

What makes him 1-1.5M less valuable then Ryan Suter? A player I wouldn't take over Dion?
Really? I like Dion but Suter is a top 4/5 dman in the whole league. Weber, Chara, Karlsson, Suter.

I'd be happy with 7x7 I just hope he doesnt ask for a crazy raise.

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07-17-2013, 09:42 AM
  #33
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6.5 is tops, he is not a Norris contender like back in Calgary. The contract should continue as is and that's it.

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07-17-2013, 09:52 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by frankthetank91 View Post
Really? I like Dion but Suter is a top 4/5 dman in the whole league. Weber, Chara, Karlsson, Suter.

I'd be happy with 7x7 I just hope he doesnt ask for a crazy raise.
Suter and Weber aren't even better then Dion. They rode off each other for so long people thought they were amazing.

This past season both looked "meh" without each other this last season. Suter was bad in the series against Chicago.

Chara? He's declining. He's old, getting much slower, and his knees are starting to wear out. You could see it in this years playoffs. He's good, but I still take Dion based on the fact that Chara only has 1 or 2 effective seasons.

Karlsson, yeah I take, for sure.

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07-17-2013, 09:53 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Why?

What makes him 1-1.5M less valuable then Ryan Suter? A player I wouldn't take over Dion?
I know cap hit is what us as fans look at, but actual salary plays a big role in negotiations. Suter is making 9.77 over the first 9 years of the contract.

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07-17-2013, 09:59 AM
  #36
Joey Hoser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Suter and Weber aren't even better then Dion. They rode off each other for so long people thought they were amazing.

This past season both looked "meh" without each other this last season. Suter was bad in the series against Chicago.

Chara? He's declining. He's old, getting much slower, and his knees are starting to wear out. You could see it in this years playoffs. He's good, but I still take Dion based on the fact that Chara only has 1 or 2 effective seasons.

Karlsson, yeah I take, for sure.
Suter was #2 in Norris voting this season and only lost to Subban by a hair.

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07-17-2013, 10:02 AM
  #37
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Phaneuf is flawed as a d-man but I'm sure somebody will offer him top dollars!. I hope Dion is willing to sign for 6 million and not a penny more, not likely but i feel that is not over paying.

As for Kessel, he is not Getz or Perry; while he has improved greatly last year he is not a difference maker night in night out. For that reason alone he should get 7 million, not to mention we bowed to his wishes to get Bozak resigned so he should be willing to leave a little on the table.

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07-17-2013, 10:08 AM
  #38
CreeksideStrangler
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Dion does not deserve more money. Kessel can get 8 and im fine with that.

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07-17-2013, 10:09 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Why?

What makes him 1-1.5M less valuable then Ryan Suter? A player I wouldn't take over Dion?
Lol. Id take Suter any day of the week over Dion. So would most GMs im sure

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07-17-2013, 10:11 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Suter and Weber aren't even better then Dion. They rode off each other for so long people thought they were amazing.

This past season both looked "meh" without each other this last season. Suter was bad in the series against Chicago.

Chara? He's declining. He's old, getting much slower, and his knees are starting to wear out. You could see it in this years playoffs. He's good, but I still take Dion based on the fact that Chara only has 1 or 2 effective seasons.

Karlsson, yeah I take, for sure.
Wow. That is all. Dion over Weber now? Lol

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07-17-2013, 10:18 AM
  #41
veedubn1
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Originally Posted by Funk21 View Post
Phaneuf is flawed as a d-man but I'm sure somebody will offer him top dollars!. I hope Dion is willing to sign for 6 million and not a penny more, not likely but i feel that is not over paying.

As for Kessel, he is not Getz or Perry; while he has improved greatly last year he is not a difference maker night in night out. For that reason alone he should get 7 million, not to mention we bowed to his wishes to get Bozak resigned so he should be willing to leave a little on the table.
You hope Dion is willing to take a paycut after carrying our blue line to the playoffs last year? You can't be serious...


And do you have a link to where Nonis (or anyone) stated that the Leafs "bowed" to Kessel's "wishes" and re-signed Bozak?

As far as I can tell, the GM knew they had chemistry together and we didn't have any other viable options for the 1C.

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07-17-2013, 10:19 AM
  #42
416Leafer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Why?

What makes him 1-1.5M less valuable then Ryan Suter? A player I wouldn't take over Dion?
...... I hope you're not serious.

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Old
07-17-2013, 10:21 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by CreeksideStrangler View Post
Wow. That is all. Dion over Weber now? Lol
Weber is debatable. Suter is a 100% no.

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Old
07-17-2013, 10:54 AM
  #44
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i would be happy with Deon getting 6.5 for 5 years

but if he wants a 8 year deal, 5.5 is the most i go

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07-17-2013, 11:01 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Why? With him as the #1 Dman on this team, we've finished below average in GAA in every season, this past season was the first that we cracked the top 20 (17th overall), and we've made the playoffs once since he's been here. I like Phaneuf, but I don't see him as a big upgrade over any of the following top pairing Dmen, and he's not as good as a number of them as well.

Byfgulien 5.2M
Timonen 6.0M
Yandle 5.25M
Gonchar 5.5M (prior to this season, now he's 5M, but getting older)
Edler 5M
OEL 5.5M
Keith 5.5M
Kronwall 4.75M
McDonagh 4.7M
Enstrom 5.75M
Seabrook 5.8M
Bieksa 4.6M

Only NINE defencemen in the entire league get 6.5M+, and the ones that Phaneuf is considered comparable to are considered to be overpaid defencemen... He's not a top 9 Dman league-wide. McDonagh JUST signed longterm at 4.7M, Phaneuf is NOT worth almost 2M more/year than McDonagh.

IMO he deserves around 5.75-6.0M, but will likely get 6.5-6.75M.
Of those listed, which are clear upgrades on Dion? I wouldn't say any are. McD, Keith and Seabrook coming the closest. I could see OEL eventually but he is still just 22

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07-17-2013, 11:10 AM
  #46
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Kessel will get 7.5M+ ... depends if he takes the cap hit discount for a longer term.

I hope the Leafs bring Phaneuf back long term as well. 6.5M is fine with me.

Armstrong/Tucker buyouts coming off the books pretty much cover this.

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Old
07-17-2013, 11:11 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Suter and Weber aren't even better then Dion. They rode off each other for so long people thought they were amazing.

This past season both looked "meh" without each other this last season. Suter was bad in the series against Chicago.

Chara? He's declining. He's old, getting much slower, and his knees are starting to wear out. You could see it in this years playoffs. He's good, but I still take Dion based on the fact that Chara only has 1 or 2 effective seasons.

Karlsson, yeah I take, for sure.
Good god man.

Weber and Suter even after they were separated - every single GM in the league takes either of them over Phaneuf.

Anyway, I would be fine with anything 6-7m for anywhere from 4-8 years. Over 7 is too high, but then again look what Letand got

Edit: Letang*

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Old
07-17-2013, 11:12 AM
  #48
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You'd think players would take a paycut if they truly want to win the cup. That's what I never understood about why players get so greedy to play a game. If I was an allstar player give me like 2 million with a NMC, NTC and i'd be happy.

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07-17-2013, 11:18 AM
  #49
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Kessel could get 9m+. If revenues and the cap go up, wouldn't you expect the top-tier FA contracts to be higher than what Perry signed a few months ago? That's just standard growth.

I'm hoping that Kessel wants to stay here and therefore we'll be able to get him in the low 8s. Maybe $66m for 8 years. Anyone who's tossing out numbers starting with 7 is just being silly.

Reminder: Phil Kessel in his last two seasons was sixth and tied-for-seventh in points in the NHL. He's out-performed players like Perry and Getzlaf offensively and he's done it playing with Tyler Bozak! This year, we've seen a big improvement in his two-way play and he succeeded in the playoffs. He's a star and needs to be paid accordingly.

(If Phaneuf does get a raise, it won't be that big. If he stays in Toronto, I could see him trading per-year salary for total years. $50m/8 years, for example.)

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Old
07-17-2013, 11:21 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by korndog81 View Post
You'd think players would take a paycut if they truly want to win the cup. That's what I never understood about why players get so greedy to play a game. If I was an allstar player give me like 2 million with a NMC, NTC and i'd be happy.
How exactly is it "greedy" to make enough money that you know you'll be able to provide for your children and family?

Don't be fooled by the total contract amount = between taxes and agents, it gets cut down very fast.

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