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Old
07-17-2013, 11:23 AM
  #51
AuraSphere
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How does detroit get players like Kronwall to sign for 4.75 and players like zetterberg to 6 mill -.-"

Kronwall is the most comparable to Phaneuf imo, and it sucks knowing we're gonna be paying 7 mill for a type of guy detroit is paying 4.75 mill

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07-17-2013, 11:32 AM
  #52
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The cap may jump up quite a bit, so I'm thinking Phaneuf will probably ask for 7.5 and hopefully settle around the 7 mil mark if we can guarantee term, and then Phil will probably ask for around 8 years at 8 million, which I think is fair. Hopefully we can lower him from that, and that acquiring BFF Bozie will help us in that.

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07-17-2013, 11:34 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by AuraSphere View Post
How does detroit get players like Kronwall to sign for 4.75 and players like zetterberg to 6 mill -.-"

Kronwall is the most comparable to Phaneuf imo, and it sucks knowing we're gonna be paying 7 mill for a type of guy detroit is paying 4.75 mill
Winning team.

In Toronto you pay players to stay, in Detroit players take less money to be a Red Wing.

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07-17-2013, 11:36 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by AuraSphere View Post
How does detroit get players like Kronwall to sign for 4.75 and players like zetterberg to 6 mill -.-"

Kronwall is the most comparable to Phaneuf imo, and it sucks knowing we're gonna be paying 7 mill for a type of guy detroit is paying 4.75 mill
Good teams are successful because they get their star players to buy into building a competitive team by providing their teams GM extra cap space at their own expense. I think they refer to these kind of players as team players as opposed to me players..

Case in point Patrice Bergeron one of the most complete players in the game. Former Selke winner as best 2-way forward, strong in all 3 zones and special teams and key face-off man for Boston just re-signed for 8 years / $52 mil and cap hit average of $6.5 mil.

Leaf Nation is talking about Kessel in the $7.5 - $8 mil range as a 1 way offensive winger..

Bergeron impact on Boston success >>>>>>> Kessel on the Leafs however it appears Kessel's cap and pay >>>> Bergeron.

Boston got stronger via the Bergeron contract in regards to the Team Cap and Leafs are about to get weaker as Kessel's raise will bite sharply in remaining cap space for the rest of the team.

You tell me would you rather have Chara at $6.9 mil and Bergeron at $6.5 mil cap long-term or Kessel and Phaneuf at > $7 mil cap each?

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07-17-2013, 11:49 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Good teams are successful because they get their star players to buy into building a competitive team by providing their teams GM extra cap space at their own expense. I think they refer to these kind of players as team players as opposed to me players..

Case in point Patrice Bergeron one of the most complete players in the game. Former Selke winner as best 2-way forward, strong in all 3 zones and special teams and key face-off man for Boston just re-signed for 8 years / $52 mil and cap hit average of $6.5 mil.

Leaf Nation is talking about Kessel in the $7.5 - $8 mil range as a 1 way offensive winger..

Bergeron impact on Boston success >>>>>>> Kessel on the Leafs however it appears Kessel's cap and pay >>>> Bergeron.

Boston got stronger via the Bergeron contract in regards to the Team Cap and Leafs are about to get weaker as Kessel's raise will bite sharply in remaining cap space for the rest of the team.

You tell me would you rather have Chara at $6.9 mil and Bergeron at $6.5 mil cap long-term or Kessel and Phaneuf at > $7 mil cap each?
Two different teams though - while both players are nasty, Boston won the Cup a few years ago and nearly won it again this year, while Toronto just made the playoffs for the first time in a decade and hasn't gone all the way since '67. Players like Phil and Dion will hopefully bring us there, and that can usher in a new age for the Leafs where guys will be willing to take discounts.

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07-17-2013, 11:57 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraSphere View Post
How does detroit get players like Kronwall to sign for 4.75 and players like zetterberg to 6 mill -.-"

Kronwall is the most comparable to Phaneuf imo, and it sucks knowing we're gonna be paying 7 mill for a type of guy detroit is paying 4.75 mill
It's pretty simple. Players want to win (most of them) so if you give them a prominent role on a club that's guaranteed to make noise in the playoffs you can likely get them for a little less than market value.

Bergeron is a great example of this. He's on a contender for the next 2-3 years (Bruins will likely drop off after that) and as a result, accepted a deal for less than he could have commanded on the free market to stay with a contender.

There is no guarantee in Toronto. We don't have a recent tradition ofplayoff success. A player could sign here for below market value and miss the playoffs for the next 3-4 seasons... leaving that player with a ton of regret.

When the Leafs turn themselves into an annual contender, players will begin to come here for below market value... until then... we have to pay the same price for free agents as the rest teams that aren't considered contenders.

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07-17-2013, 12:00 PM
  #57
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Phaneuf should be making 4.5-5 mill, AT MOST! Anything more is money wasted.

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07-17-2013, 12:09 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by dominicmoore19 View Post
Phaneuf should be making 4.5-5 mill, AT MOST! Anything more is money wasted.
Leafs don't have much leverage. He can ask for a lot of money. Unless Gardiner steps up and looks like he could be a #1 guy.

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07-17-2013, 12:12 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Kibago View Post
How exactly is it "greedy" to make enough money that you know you'll be able to provide for your children and family?

Don't be fooled by the total contract amount = between taxes and agents, it gets cut down very fast.
Does anyone need over 2 million a year to provide for family? That's more then enough. You don't need an agent if your taking a "paycut" like that.
To me playing on a dynasty team winning cups would be what it's all about while still making millions doing what I love. Plus still making millions doing endorsement deals.

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07-17-2013, 12:18 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Sundinology View Post
Two different teams though - while both players are nasty, Boston won the Cup a few years ago and nearly won it again this year, while Toronto just made the playoffs for the first time in a decade and hasn't gone all the way since '67. Players like Phil and Dion will hopefully bring us there, and that can usher in a new age for the Leafs where guys will be willing to take discounts.
Kessel and Phaneuf new contracts will have an adverse effect on the desire for team success, because their deals will cut in to team cap space significantly, as they want to be paid among the top players in the league.

Its actually an inversely proportional situation, where the more they get the less the rest of the team will get as the salary cap restricts total spending when building a team.

Kessel was already once in the Bergeron situation in Boston and asked to buy into the "Team" approach to building a competitive team by accepting a salary that coincided with what his teammates were getting and accepting in order to fuel and stronger more competitive Boston team.. Phil said.. "Yah, no thanks, trade me as I'm not a charity case. Pay me what I deserve, and screw the team" (paraphrased essentially by his actions)..

He got his wish for top dollar from Toronto via trade, but also missed out on team success in Boston as he might have at least one Stanley Cup ring by now. Instead $$$ was his top priority as he was okay toiling at the bottom of the league standings while earning it.

So we are about to see if Phil has matured or has learned anything this time around and is buying into team success or if his next contract will be for maximum dollars even if it means leaving Toronto to obtain them. "A leopard never changes its spots", so you don't see a ME guy, turn into a TEAM guy very often.. So big $$$ is the expectation of Kessel's next contract at the expense of the team. We will all be surprised if Kessel says "I'll take the recent Bergeron contract term and dollars" and follow suit of considering the team as well as his own needs.

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07-17-2013, 12:32 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Suntouchable13 View Post
Leafs don't have much leverage. He can ask for a lot of money. Unless Gardiner steps up and looks like he could be a #1 guy.
I couldn't agree more, just sucks we have to pay this guy so much.

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07-17-2013, 12:40 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Good teams are successful because they get their star players to buy into building a competitive team by providing their teams GM extra cap space at their own expense. I think they refer to these kind of players as team players as opposed to me players..

Case in point Patrice Bergeron one of the most complete players in the game. Former Selke winner as best 2-way forward, strong in all 3 zones and special teams and key face-off man for Boston just re-signed for 8 years / $52 mil and cap hit average of $6.5 mil.

Leaf Nation is talking about Kessel in the $7.5 - $8 mil range as a 1 way offensive winger..

Bergeron impact on Boston success >>>>>>> Kessel on the Leafs however it appears Kessel's cap and pay >>>> Bergeron.

Boston got stronger via the Bergeron contract in regards to the Team Cap and Leafs are about to get weaker as Kessel's raise will bite sharply in remaining cap space for the rest of the team.

You tell me would you rather have Chara at $6.9 mil and Bergeron at $6.5 mil cap long-term or Kessel and Phaneuf at > $7 mil cap each?
I'm not entirely sure I agree with you on that Mess.

Boston has obviously found more success and Bergeron has played as large a part in that as any, but I think Boston without Bergeron less worse of a team than Toronto without Kessel. By that definition, Kessel has a bigger impact on Toronto's success.

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07-17-2013, 12:46 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by dominicmoore19 View Post
I couldn't agree more, just sucks we have to pay this guy so much.
He's the most important Dman on our team hands down.

When we get someone better then him we can start picking and choosing.

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07-17-2013, 12:48 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Kessel and Phaneuf new contracts will have an adverse effect on the desire for team success, because their deals will cut in to team cap space significantly, as they want to be paid among the top players in the league.

Its actually an inversely proportional situation, where the more they get the less the rest of the team will get as the salary cap restricts total spending when building a team.

Kessel was already once in the Bergeron situation in Boston and asked to buy into the "Team" approach to building a competitive team by accepting a salary that coincided with what his teammates were getting and accepting in order to fuel and stronger more competitive Boston team.. Phil said.. "Yah, no thanks, trade me as I'm not a charity case. Pay me what I deserve, and screw the team" (paraphrased essentially by his actions)..

He got his wish for top dollar from Toronto via trade, but also missed out on team success in Boston as he might have at least one Stanley Cup ring by now. Instead $$$ was his top priority as he was okay toiling at the bottom of the league standings while earning it.

So we are about to see if Phil has matured or has learned anything this time around and is buying into team success or if his next contract will be for maximum dollars even if it means leaving Toronto to obtain them. "A leopard never changes its spots", so you don't see a ME guy, turn into a TEAM guy very often.. So big $$$ is the expectation of Kessel's next contract at the expense of the team. We will all be surprised if Kessel says "I'll take the recent Bergeron contract term and dollars" and follow suit of considering the team as well as his own needs.
I guess Anaheim should be pretty upset because they just watched Perry and Getzlaf go from TEAM guys to ME guys in the same summer (5.5M contracts to nearly 9M). Their immense salary increase pretty much cost them Bobby Ryan any hope of becoming a contender for the duration of their contracts.

I wonder why people expect guys like Kessel and Phaneuf to get paid less... and not 3rd and 4th liners? I guess every player, star status or not, who signs for market value isn't a TEAM player. Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin are fantastic examples of ME players who put big paydays ahead of their team... I have no clue why they didn't stick around for 6.5M like Bergeron did. What a bunch of greedy jerks.





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07-17-2013, 12:54 PM
  #65
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Enough rumours have floated around about Phaneuf being on the market this offseason that I wouldn't be surprised if Nonis either traded him or lowballed him on a contract. I don't think Nonis has anywhere near the same commitment to Phaneuf as Burke did. And with good reason. Anyone who really looks at what Phaneuf brings to the table sees just how dumb he is, how little compete level he shows when battling for the puck, the idiotic shooting decisions on the PP, etc. No way should he eat up $6M or more of cap space.

Never been a fan, never will be a fan. That playoff pinch sealed it for me forever. He's a thud who's never going to get smarter or properly fill the role that was unfairly given to him with the Leafs.

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07-17-2013, 12:57 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraSphere View Post
How does detroit get players like Kronwall to sign for 4.75 and players like zetterberg to 6 mill -.-"

Kronwall is the most comparable to Phaneuf imo, and it sucks knowing we're gonna be paying 7 mill for a type of guy detroit is paying 4.75 mill
Zetterberg's contract is cap circumventing. They had an internal rule that no one would have a cap hit higher than Lidstrom's. Lidstrom set an example of taking a paycut as the best player on the team.

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07-17-2013, 12:58 PM
  #67
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Its tough to compare contracts if they guys signed in different years at different stages of their career. Phaneuf signed 6.5 mil as a top 5 D on a bridge contract till he was a UFA. Now he will sign a UFA contract in a world where the cap is much higher and he is a top 15 d at the worst, top 10 in my eyes. That is why he will get 7 mil. If I remember correctly Kronwall signed that contract when he was behind Lidstrom AND Rafalski. So compare Kronwall to Franson, not Phaneuf. Compare Phaneufs contract to Suters. Very similar players, very similar cap situation. However, Suter signed a back diving contract, Dion didn't. So if Dion is less than Suter, especially when you factor in the fact his contract won't back dive, it is an absolutesteal.

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07-17-2013, 12:59 PM
  #68
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Why? With him as the #1 Dman on this team, we've finished below average in GAA in every season, this past season was the first that we cracked the top 20 (17th overall), and we've made the playoffs once since he's been here. I like Phaneuf, but I don't see him as a big upgrade over any of the following top pairing Dmen, and he's not as good as a number of them as well.

Byfgulien 5.2M
Timonen 6.0M
Yandle 5.25M
Gonchar 5.5M (prior to this season, now he's 5M, but getting older)
Edler 5M
OEL 5.5M
Keith 5.5M
Kronwall 4.75M
McDonagh 4.7M
Enstrom 5.75M
Seabrook 5.8M
Bieksa 4.6M

Only NINE defencemen in the entire league get 6.5M+, and the ones that Phaneuf is considered comparable to are considered to be overpaid defencemen... He's not a top 9 Dman league-wide. McDonagh JUST signed longterm at 4.7M, Phaneuf is NOT worth almost 2M more/year than McDonagh.

IMO he deserves around 5.75-6.0M, but will likely get 6.5-6.75M.
Keith is the only Dman on that list that is a clear upgrade on Dion, some others are arguable. And as he has one of the long term back diving contracts that are now illegal and will cary a penalty at the end you cant use his cap hit as comparison. After that take out the players that were signed while they were RFA's because their teams had leverage to keep the contract values down.

Dion is a borderline top 10 to top 15 guy. He was the only Dman in the league to finish in the top 10 for goals, points and hits. He did that while facing the highest level of competition in the league. He finished 11th in norris voting.
All that says to me he is somewhere in the 8-13 rank for his position.

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07-17-2013, 01:00 PM
  #69
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Also wanted to add, stop the love affair with Bergeron. His contract is not a "team" contract, its what he's worth. Crosby Stamkos Malkin Tavares Datsyuk Getzlaf Toews Sedin, they are all better centers, and a tier ahead of Bergeron, that's why he is 6.5 and not in the 7+ category.

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07-17-2013, 01:01 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Kessel and Phaneuf new contracts will have an adverse effect on the desire for team success, because their deals will cut in to team cap space significantly, as they want to be paid among the top players in the league.

Its actually an inversely proportional situation, where the more they get the less the rest of the team will get as the salary cap restricts total spending when building a team.

Kessel was already once in the Bergeron situation in Boston and asked to buy into the "Team" approach to building a competitive team by accepting a salary that coincided with what his teammates were getting and accepting in order to fuel and stronger more competitive Boston team.. Phil said.. "Yah, no thanks, trade me as I'm not a charity case. Pay me what I deserve, and screw the team" (paraphrased essentially by his actions)..

He got his wish for top dollar from Toronto via trade, but also missed out on team success in Boston as he might have at least one Stanley Cup ring by now. Instead $$$ was his top priority as he was okay toiling at the bottom of the league standings while earning it.

So we are about to see if Phil has matured or has learned anything this time around and is buying into team success or if his next contract will be for maximum dollars even if it means leaving Toronto to obtain them. "A leopard never changes its spots", so you don't see a ME guy, turn into a TEAM guy very often.. So big $$$ is the expectation of Kessel's next contract at the expense of the team. We will all be surprised if Kessel says "I'll take the recent Bergeron contract term and dollars" and follow suit of considering the team as well as his own needs.


If Bergeron could earn what Kessel will he would have signed for it.

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07-17-2013, 01:22 PM
  #71
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Bergeron is one damn expensive 60pt player, is what he is.

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07-17-2013, 01:26 PM
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Next year's core caphits;

C N.Kadri ~$3.5
W P.Kessel ~$7.5
W J.Lupul $5.25

C T.Bozak $4.2
W D.Clarkson $5.25
W J.VanRiemsdyk $4.25


D D.Phaneuf ~$7.0
D J.Gardiner ~$3.5

D C.Franson ~$3.5
D C.Gunnarsson ~$3.5


G J.Reimer ~$3.5
G J.Bernier $2.9


Total ~$52.85


Leaving us about $17 mil or so to fill out the rest of the roster.

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07-17-2013, 01:30 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
Next year's core caphits;

C N.Kadri ~$3.5
W P.Kessel ~$7.5
W J.Lupul $5.25

C T.Bozak $4.2
W D.Clarkson $5.25
W J.VanRiemsdyk $4.25


D D.Phaneuf ~$7.0
D J.Gardiner ~$3.5

D C.Franson ~$3.5
D C.Gunnarsson ~$3.5


G J.Reimer ~$3.5
G J.Bernier $2.9


Total ~$52.85


Leaving us about $17 mil or so to fill out the rest of the roster.
Way too high for Reimer Kadri Franson and Gunnarsson. Those 4 will NOT combine for 14 mil, no way. Gardiner is too high aswell unless his season is phenomenal.

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07-17-2013, 01:35 PM
  #74
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If Phaneuf gets 7 mill I'm going barf.

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07-17-2013, 01:36 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by veedubn1 View Post
I guess Anaheim should be pretty upset because they just watched Perry and Getzlaf go from TEAM guys to ME guys in the same summer (5.5M contracts to nearly 9M). Their immense salary increase pretty much cost them Bobby Ryan any hope of becoming a contender for the duration of their contracts.

I wonder why people expect guys like Kessel and Phaneuf to get paid less... and not 3rd and 4th liners? I guess every player, star status or not, who signs for market value isn't a TEAM player. Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin are fantastic examples of ME players who put big paydays ahead of their team... I have no clue why they didn't stick around for 6.5M like Bergeron did. What a bunch of greedy jerks.

Perry, Getzalf, Crosby and Malkin have Stanley Cup rings and major awards and trophies on their resumes and have proven to be key components of a Cup winning team. No question their contracts impact the team, but you're paying proven winners also. .But their new contracts have consequences (aka Bobby Ryan) in Anaheim making future Cups more difficult to obtain as a result of weakening the team to keep the stars.

What have Phaneuf and Kessel proven, other than being malcontents that were traded away from their drafted teams in the past, and with little to no team success to back them up now heading into negotiations?.

Paying them more money isn't going to make the Leafs better simply by paying them more to do what they did in the past for less, and it has an adverse effect on the team due to the salary cap and its competitiveness.

Nonis is now deciding if they're the players you build a winning championship team around.. How much he is willing to pay them to stay to do so, or if trading them again is in the best interest of the team and its cup aspirations.

Washington invested big $$ in winger OV, but what has it gotten them for all their financial commitment? Diddly squat and hopefully Leafs are not going down that similar road of high priced players and limited team success the net result.

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