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Kessel and Phaneuf's raise

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Old
07-17-2013, 05:47 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Kessley Snipes View Post
Obvious hatred is obvious. Dion is a top 15 D man in the NHL.
"At times"

There are moments when he's dominant and moments when he looks terrible.

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07-17-2013, 06:01 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by OverWatch View Post
"At times"

There are moments when he's dominant and moments when he looks terrible.
That could be said of nearly every player in the league.

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07-17-2013, 06:01 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverWatch View Post
"At times"

There are moments when he's dominant and moments when he looks terrible.
That can be said about any player. Did you see Malkin and Crosby against Boston?

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07-17-2013, 06:04 PM
  #104
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That can be said about any player. Did you see Malkin and Crosby against Boston?
Or how this years MVP started the season.

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07-17-2013, 06:05 PM
  #105
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one could argue that phaneuf won't get a raise at all. His offensive numbers have declined since he got that contract...as for kessel, we could probably afford 7. Marian gaborik's contract seems more of a fair comparison than perry/getzlaf

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07-17-2013, 06:09 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Kibago View Post
Kessel could get 9m+. If revenues and the cap go up, wouldn't you expect the top-tier FA contracts to be higher than what Perry signed a few months ago? That's just standard growth.

I'm hoping that Kessel wants to stay here and therefore we'll be able to get him in the low 8s. Maybe $66m for 8 years. Anyone who's tossing out numbers starting with 7 is just being silly.

Reminder: Phil Kessel in his last two seasons was sixth and tied-for-seventh in points in the NHL. He's out-performed players like Perry and Getzlaf offensively and he's done it playing with Tyler Bozak! This year, we've seen a big improvement in his two-way play and he succeeded in the playoffs. He's a star and needs to be paid accordingly.

(If Phaneuf does get a raise, it won't be that big. If he stays in Toronto, I could see him trading per-year salary for total years. $50m/8 years, for example.)
um I love phil but hes not a 9 million dollar player lol

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07-17-2013, 06:12 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Why? With him as the #1 Dman on this team, we've finished below average in GAA in every season, this past season was the first that we cracked the top 20 (17th overall), and we've made the playoffs once since he's been here. I like Phaneuf, but I don't see him as a big upgrade over any of the following top pairing Dmen, and he's not as good as a number of them as well.

Byfgulien 5.2M
Timonen 6.0M
Yandle 5.25M
Gonchar 5.5M (prior to this season, now he's 5M, but getting older)
Edler 5M
OEL 5.5M
Keith 5.5M
Kronwall 4.75M
McDonagh 4.7M
Enstrom 5.75M

Seabrook 5.8M
Bieksa 4.6M

Only NINE defencemen in the entire league get 6.5M+, and the ones that Phaneuf is considered comparable to are considered to be overpaid defencemen... He's not a top 9 Dman league-wide. McDonagh JUST signed longterm at 4.7M, Phaneuf is NOT worth almost 2M more/year than McDonagh.

IMO he deserves around 5.75-6.0M, but will likely get 6.5-6.75M.
Everyone else besides the bolded he's an upgrade on.

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07-17-2013, 06:13 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Jtabo View Post
That can be said about any player. Did you see Malkin and Crosby against Boston?
Boston played out of their minds in that series so judging C&M based on a bad series isn't the best way to compare players.

The problem with Phanuef is that for every great moment he has 3 bad ones.

Pick your poison i guess.

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07-17-2013, 06:15 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Suter and Weber aren't even better then Dion. They rode off each other for so long people thought they were amazing.

This past season both looked "meh" without each other this last season. Suter was bad in the series against Chicago.


Surely you're joking right?

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07-17-2013, 06:43 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by OverWatch View Post
Boston played out of their minds in that series so judging C&M based on a bad series isn't the best way to compare players.

The problem with Phanuef is that for every great moment he has 3 bad ones.

Pick your poison i guess.
Again, that can be said for virtually every player. Malkin, at times, can be very meh, especially on the defensive side of the game. Minnesota and Nashville performed worse than us in terms of GA rank, and yes, their ultra elite defenceman often performed badly.

If Phaneuf had "3 bad ones" with no solid (vs. marginal) top 4 partner is able to take us to the playoffs, how you describe Suter and Weber's performance? Seeing that both are making a hell lot more than $6.5 million, I can see Phaneuf getting at least a $500k raise. We can get rid of our overrated peripheral guys if we cannot pull it off financially.

Honestly, these posts are becoming more and more asinine. Somehow Gardiner is sure to be a 100point defenceman ( epitome of asinine) and yet the same want to move a top 10 producer that plays the heaviest minutes as well. Does that even make any sense?

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07-17-2013, 06:46 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by kamosko View Post


Surely you're joking right?
Indeed, most of us are laughing at you.

And, no, they're not better than Phaneuf. Those two are not just overrated, but playing at toddler franchises. I would be expecting much better GA performance if they're so super elite. We're going to be seeing improvements here as well considering our GA has been a weakness even when Sundin was around.

Let's get real here. There is no Lidstrom-level defenceman in the NHL. I guess one can argue that Chara is the best in the NHL, but Phaneuf isn't that far off.

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07-17-2013, 06:48 PM
  #112
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Why is it so hard for people to understand the pay scale difference between a RFA and a UFA? Its all about who has the leverage.

Elite players that seem to have a low cap hit have contracts that go forever. Duncan Keith comes to mind 5.6 cap hit but he's signed until 2023 with a No Movement Clause. He's 30 years old you really think he'll play until he's 40 His salary next year is 7.65 + 1M Bonus See below from cap geek 2010 to 2013 and last year of the contract

Salary AHL Salary NHL Bonus Cap Hit

2010-11 $8,000,000 $8,000,000 $0 $3,000,000 $5,538,462
2011-12 $8,000,000 $8,000,000 $0 $2,000,000 $5,538,462
2012-13 $8,000,000 $8,000,000 $0 $1,500,000 $5,538,462
2013-14 $7,650,000 $7,650,000 $0 $1,000,000 $5,538,462

2022-23 $1,500,000 $1,500,000 $0 $0 $5,538,462

Comparing Phaneuf's cap hit 6.5 Keith's 5.6 shows a total lack of understanding of Math Logic and Relativity.

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07-17-2013, 06:52 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Mansfield View Post
one could argue that phaneuf won't get a raise at all. His offensive numbers have declined since he got that contract...as for kessel, we could probably afford 7. Marian gaborik's contract seems more of a fair comparison than perry/getzlaf
That contract was signed when he was the 2nd best defenseman in the previous season and the cap was much lower and he was a RFA. Now he isn't the 2nd best, but the 11th as of last year, but, the cap is higher and he is a UFA. That's why he will get a raise. If he doesn't get it with is someone else will be more than happy to give him 7.5x7 if he is a UFA

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07-17-2013, 06:53 PM
  #114
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Phaneuf 6x6
Kessel 7x7.75

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07-17-2013, 06:54 PM
  #115
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Just sign them already.

Although dion might take a hit depending on his season this year.

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07-17-2013, 06:54 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverWatch View Post
Boston played out of their minds in that series so judging C&M based on a bad series isn't the best way to compare players.

The problem with Phanuef is that for every great moment he has 3 bad ones.

Pick your poison i guess.
If you honestly believe Phaneuf only has 1 great moment for 3 bad ones there is no point even acknowledging your opinion and I will just ave to ignore your posts.

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07-17-2013, 06:55 PM
  #117
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Kessel won't be that far from the $9 million dollar mark. I'm guessing around $8.5 million, but we may be able to take it down to $8 million. If we're trading him ( we won't), we're better off moving overrated pieces like Kulemin, Gunnarsson, McClement, etc for a billion first rounders, because we're going to be re-starting all over again.

Simply put, Kessel is our Tavares. You build around him and getting this kind of talent will require tanking. You won't be seeing similar talent being swapped except in extreme cases. Instead, you'll be getting prospects who may produce like Kessel.

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07-17-2013, 06:57 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by The_Chosen_One View Post
Indeed, most of us are laughing at you.

And, no, they're not better than Phaneuf. Those two are not just overrated, but playing at toddler franchises. I would be expecting much better GA performance if they're so super elite. We're going to be seeing improvements here as well considering our GA has been a weakness even when Sundin was around.

Let's get real here. There is no Lidstrom-level defenceman in the NHL. I guess one can argue that Chara is the best in the NHL, but Phaneuf isn't that far off.
If suter and weber were leafs, and phaneuf played for another team, you would be SCOFFING at the notion that phaneuf is as good as them.

That's the simple truth. And I think, deep down inside, you see it too. You know it's the truth.
But you've repressed those thoughts. And there's nothing any of us could really do to make you see the truth.
Phaneuf is a leaf. The other two players are not leafs. And you 'likey like' the leafs. So in your mind, the case was closed before it Evan began.
Forgive us.... But it's just frustrating for us fans that can turn away such biases and see simple truth.

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07-17-2013, 07:07 PM
  #119
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Simple solution, really. Take 1.5m from Phaneuf and give it to Kessel.

Phaneuf gets 5m
Kessel gets 7m, maybe 7.5 with the cap increase. We also signed his buddy Bozak, so he should make a little compromise by accepting that.

Don't tell me Phaneuf deserves more than that. I want him on the team, but don't think he's worth more than that.

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07-17-2013, 07:09 PM
  #120
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Kessel will easily get 7-8 million.

Phaneuf shouldn't get anything more than what he gets now. If he's asking for 7+ he can walk

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07-17-2013, 07:12 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by veedubn1 View Post
You heard it here first, everyone.

If you win a cup, you can go from TEAM first to ME first and it's perfectly alright. Guys like Malkin, Crosby, Getzlaf and Perry aren't concerned about winning more cups which is why they signed such big money deals.

If you haven't won a cup, DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT ASKING FOR MARKET VALUE.

Ovechkin is a ME first player who signed for market value and is therefore grossly overpaid despite winning 3 of the last 6 Hart trophies.

Glad that's all cleared up now.
How come we are comparing Kessel to any of these players ?

How many trophies, scoring championship, all-star team 1st or 2nd, or cup rings etc has Kessel earned that we should lump him in with the best of the NHL?

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07-17-2013, 07:32 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
If suter and weber were leafs, and phaneuf played for another team, you would be SCOFFING at the notion that phaneuf is as good as them.
I already know that you haven't seen either of them play. Nashville, particularly, plays a very boring, low-tempo, defensive-oriented style of hockey. It is extremely working class, and Phaneuf would thrive under a hard thrive system.

Do you remember the Hall of Famer, Larry Murphy? He was with us 96-98, and, he was severely underrated. It's sort of the case when the neurotic segment of our fanbase want Power Rangers action. Some sort of Harlem Globetrotter solution rather than a real hockey game.

Fact is, he left to Detroit and won two cups. If Phaneuf left, I can see a similar result as well. We'll take that overrated centre Gagner and crash into hell.

Quote:
That's the simple truth. And I think, deep down inside, you see it too. You know it's the truth.
But you've repressed those thoughts. And there's nothing any of us could really do to make you see the truth.
I already know the truth. You don't know hockey, and are severely overrating those two players. I suggest watching those two pond franchises and then start talking.

Quote:
Phaneuf is a leaf. The other two players are not leafs. And you 'likey like' the leafs. So in your mind, the case was closed before it Evan began.
Let's see. Outside of Kessel, Phaneuf, Rielly, I think everyone else can be moved. I guess JVR, Gardiner and Franson are very close to core, but everyone else can be replaced. Unlike you, who overrates talent you've barely seen, I can appreciate players elsewhere.

I have yet to see a Lidstrom equivalent or even a big defenceman that is rivaling Pronger. Phaneuf, on the other hand, definitely belongs with the elite all-round defenceman even if he doesn't move the puck like Karlsson.

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Forgive us.... But it's just frustrating for us fans that can turn away such biases and see simple truth.
I pity those fans as well. You can move over to those marginal franchises and over hype their talent.

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07-17-2013, 07:42 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
How come we are comparing Kessel to any of these players ?

How many trophies, scoring championship, all-star team 1st or 2nd, or cup rings etc has Kessel earned that we should lump him in with the best of the NHL?
How many scoring titles did Giroux win? Let's be consistent here, Mess. He was signed under a $8.25 million cap deal, while Semin is earning $7 million and Nash is on a $7.8 million deal.

We're signing him to a buck or two deal. Nor is Phaneuf getting paid less than Dan Boyle. This sheer inability to assess talent is why we let star players leave and, ultimately, never contend for the cup in a consistent manner.

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07-17-2013, 07:50 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
How come we are comparing Kessel to any of these players ?

How many trophies, scoring championship, all-star team 1st or 2nd, or cup rings etc has Kessel earned that we should lump him in with the best of the NHL?
Because you suggested that if Kessel was a TEAM guy he should leave money on the table and I gave you examples of players who didn't leave money on the table... making them ME guys by your definition.

By your definition, the vast majority of the NHL are ME guys... so why should Kessel be any different?

And of course, I think your definition is BS. Saying that these upcoming contracts will define Kessel and Phaneuf as TEAM guys or ME guys is a load of crap.

Outside of a handful of players, the only time you'll see players take less on a contract than market value is in cases like Bergeron (Kunitz is another) where the player is sacrificing a little to keep a contender's core intact. It's incredibly rare for ANY player to take less cash before "contender" status has been reached.

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07-17-2013, 07:53 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Mindrust View Post
Simple solution, really. Take 1.5m from Phaneuf and give it to Kessel.

Phaneuf gets 5m
Kessel gets 7m, maybe 7.5 with the cap increase. We also signed his buddy Bozak, so he should make a little compromise by accepting that.

Don't tell me Phaneuf deserves more than that. I want him on the team, but don't think he's worth more than that.
Paid less than Mark Streit?

Maybe I ridicule posts in a similar manner.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

LOL Suter will be making $12 million next season as will Zach Parise.

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