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What if Shea Weber played during the Original 6 era

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Old
07-23-2013, 10:34 AM
  #1
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What if Shea Weber played during the Original 6 era

Just was fantasizing about what it would be like if Shea Weber played back in the day. Forget the modern training and the modern day equipment. Put his 6'4'', 234lb body into the NHL back in the day. Maybe some of you may say he would not even be that heavy, so be it lets call him 220lb.

Put him during the Original 6 days leading up to the expansion draft. What team would have signed him? How would he have handled guys like Maurice Richards, Gordie Howe, Boom Boom and the emergence of Bobby Orr and whoever else you want to mention.

Shea Weber is a big boy. We mention his name a lot but rarely realize just how big and dominant this SOB can be. Holding, grabbing, fights were common.

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07-23-2013, 12:42 PM
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If he grew up under rationing of the Great Depression and World War 2, he'd probably be about 6'0" 200 lbs, Gordie Howe's size.

Higher nutritional standards are why humans grow up to be taller today

Then again, Jean Beliveau was actually 6'4", so there were exceptions

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07-23-2013, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If he grew up under rationing of the Great Depression and World War 2, he'd probably be about 6'0" 200 lbs, Gordie Howe's size.

Higher nutritional standards are why humans grow up to be taller today

Then again, Jean Beliveau was actually 6'4", so there were exceptions
I can also go off and say that Shea Weber probably wouldnt have grown up on the West Coast of Canada. maybe due to the war he doesnt even live in the west, or in Canada at all.

I can say maybe he doesnt even play hockey because of all of this.


Make it simple. Put his body, his style of play and give him the equipment from back then and put him in the Original 6 era. Lets say 50s. How does he rack up against the best D man of back then, and how does he defend against the best attack?

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07-23-2013, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If he grew up under rationing of the Great Depression and World War 2, he'd probably be about 6'0" 200 lbs, Gordie Howe's size.

Higher nutritional standards are why humans grow up to be taller today

Then again, Jean Beliveau was actually 6'4", so there were exceptions
True. Beliveau may have been Lemieux's height or taller in a more modern era and much heavier.

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07-23-2013, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
I can also go off and say that Shea Weber probably wouldnt have grown up on the West Coast of Canada. maybe due to the war he doesnt even live in the west, or in Canada at all.

I can say maybe he doesnt even play hockey because of all of this.


Make it simple. Put his body, his style of play and give him the equipment from back then and put him in the Original 6 era. Lets say 50s. How does he rack up against the best D man of back then, and how does he defend against the best attack?
Lots of broken sticks, but since his style of play would mean training from now, I think that he'd be the best defenseman in the league by far. He'd play a far more transitional game than was usual back then and would have a more dominant slapper than the rest of the league. His physicality would be helpful but it may draw cheapshots that the older equipment wouldn't protect him from.

There, I tried!

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07-23-2013, 01:19 PM
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This though all derived from the battle between him and a guy like Gordie Howe.

How would he have handled a guy like him. Elbows flying everywhere. I think that be a GREAT battle

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07-23-2013, 02:00 PM
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O6 Rules

Shea Weber at 6'4" would have been seriously impacted by the stick length rules - 58" thru most of the O6 era which seriously impacted the skating fluidity of tall defensemen. Laperriere, Vasko and White were 6'2" tall and were somewhat gangly/awkward on skates.

Give Chara a 58" stick today and he would have a hard time shooting and passing because he would be forced to play bent over. The explosiveness that a lot of hockey moves require would be missing.

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07-23-2013, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Shea Weber at 6'4" would have been seriously impacted by the stick length rules - 58" thru most of the O6 era which seriously impacted the skating fluidity of tall defensemen. Laperriere, Vasko and White were 6'2" tall and were somewhat gangly/awkward on skates.
Indeed, and I doubt either one of them as a result of that wouldve made it to the NHL, the Minors even. Charas' skating even with the longer stick, unless someone somewhere decided to make him a special project, and thats just not the way they operated back then, cant see him getting out of his own country. Thats no slight on Chara, he's worked hard, top Defenceman, a frikin machine, but the times then as compared to now, entirely different. Even in the mid-to-late 60's & early 70's, elite amateur & Jr., a lot of big guys just didnt make the cut because they couldnt keep up. Advances in Power Skating, technique, that sort of thing non-existent, border-line Neanderthal with the likes of Eddie Shore and his bizarre theories, training techniques. By the early 70's however, with the rise in fighting & intimidation, a lot of these Big Bruisers were signed, most often as Defenceman, and I can tell you as a Goaltender it was a Nightmare. Just dreaded what you knew was going to be an on-slaught offensively comin right at ya, as these guys simply couldnt keep up, skate properly. Some barely even able to skate backwards and their playing Junior?

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07-23-2013, 04:38 PM
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Indeed, and I doubt either one of them as a result of that wouldve made it to the NHL, the Minors even. Charas' skating even with the longer stick, unless someone somewhere decided to make him a special project, and thats just not the way they operated back then, cant see him getting out of his own country. Thats no slight on Chara, he's worked hard, top Defenceman, a frikin machine, but the times then as compared to now, entirely different. Even in the mid-to-late 60's & early 70's, elite amateur & Jr., a lot of big guys just didnt make the cut because they couldnt keep up. Advances in Power Skating, technique, that sort of thing non-existent, border-line Neanderthal with the likes of Eddie Shore and his bizarre theories, training techniques. By the early 70's however, with the rise in fighting & intimidation, a lot of these Big Bruisers were signed, most often as Defenceman, and I can tell you as a Goaltender it was a Nightmare. Just dreaded what you knew was going to be an on-slaught offensively comin right at ya, as these guys simply couldnt keep up, skate properly. Some barely even able to skate backwards and their playing Junior?
Please tell me more. I do not know of this!

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07-23-2013, 06:28 PM
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Four years ago, I attended a golf tournament in Mesa Az. put on by a former hockey player from Winnipeg who was a defenseman. The Tournament was for former Canadian hockey players who wintered in the Phoenix area. I had reffed his games back in the late 1950's and early 60's when he played Juvenile and Jr. hockey.

We were talking and I bought up the first time that I saw him was when I stepped onto the ice to ref a Juvenile game. The first thing that came to my mind was, why isn't he playing Basketball? He stood 6' 2".

That was the thinking back then about hockey players who were over 6' tall.

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07-23-2013, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by invictus View Post
Please tell me more. I do not know of this!
Oh? You should pick up a copy of Eddie Shore & That Old Time Hockey. Highly entertaining. And sure, Eddie did have some strange ideas when it came to skating, how to hold your stick properly, you name it. As Owner/GM & Coach of Springfield in the 40's & 50's, some absolutely bizarre stories of his training methods recounted by players who were either witness to or the victims of Shores madness. He believed that in order to get maximum speed & efficiency in skating, the blades should be exactly, EXACTLY mind you 19" or so apart, the knees the same, the upper body upright, elbows as well thrust back & 19"'s from tip to tip. Players not skating the way Eddie prescribes? No problem. Cuts up 19" strands of rope. In practice, 19" piece of cord tied between the blades, between the knees, the players arms from elbow to elbow behind his back. Laps, starts & stops until the player collapses in exhaustion. Quick rest, at it again....

... from the beams in the old Springfield Arena, Eddie set up an elaborate block & tackle system of ropes & pullys. Back then, Wingers played The Lanes, Centres the centre of the ice, Defencemen rarely if ever crossing the opposing teams Blue Lines. No cycling like the Russians of the 60's onward, like todays game. If a player wasnt playing his Lanes, again during practice, Eddie would put the guy in a special harness with a rope attached to the beams through a pully, and during a scrimmage would grip the loose end of the rope and whenever the player strayed from his Lane, Eddie would hoist him right off the ice where he'd dangle, Shore lecturing him on "playing your lane, 19" apart skates, 21"'s separating your gloves on the stick" and so on & so forth.

Some guys would get the full treatment; ropes tied between their skates, knees & elbows, their gloved hands taped to the 2X4 piece of crap Wally sticks Eddie got for about .25 cents a piece by the gross, the harness attached, all trussed up like a Thanksgiving Turkey.... Goalies he believed should all be Stand-Up's. Would attach a Hangmans Noose from the Cross Bar of the net around the Goalies neck, then get players coming in on him with dekes, and the only way you can properly stop a deke is by going down into the semi or full Butterfly, though back then theyd sort of flop. If the guy went down anymore than a Butterfly, instantaneous & painful strangulation. Ya, Eddie Shore was a piece of work. Surprised youd not heard these stories before invictus.

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07-23-2013, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeCool16 View Post
Lots of broken sticks, but since his style of play would mean training from now, I think that he'd be the best defenseman in the league by far. He'd play a far more transitional game than was usual back then and would have a more dominant slapper than the rest of the league. His physicality would be helpful but it may draw cheapshots that the older equipment wouldn't protect him from.

There, I tried!
That's actually a misconception. Wood sticks seldom broke (compared to composites, anyway).


I'm going to read this question as "what happens if you teleport Shea Weber back in a time machine, give him old equipment and put him on the Rangers (or whomever)."

The good

Well, first off, he'd likely be far and away the strongest player in the league and without question would be the best conditioned in terms of combating fatigue.

There's an outside chance he'd be its best skater as well despite being merely one good skater among many others in the modern era.

Nobody would be able to hang with him on the boards. It's unlikely anyone would be able to make a breakout pass like him.

So he'd have quite a leg up on the competition.

Now the bad.

Players are conditioned to get in shooting lanes. That's what "good defense" is now. If Weber was blocking 3 or 4 shots per game with 50s pads, even if just by reflex or muscle memory, he'd have a broken leg in fairly short order.

Players on the other team (and probably his own) would flip their **** every time he shot a slapshot from the point higher than about an inch off the ice. So if he didn't stop doing that, he would be targeted for all sorts of illegal stickwork (which was a lot more dangerous then than it is now).

And finally, about that shot. Shooting a slapshot with a really flexible composite and shooting one with wood isn't really the same. I'm not sure what flex Weber uses, but if he really let one go during a game and, through muscle memory, shot it as if the stick would flex like a composite, it's not out of the question that he'd jam himself up and injure his hand or wrist.

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07-23-2013, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
That was the thinking back then about hockey players who were over 6' tall.
Ya, absolutely. 6'+, you were going to be playing defence unless a strong skater, offensively minded, had a decent shot. I remember only too well guys who were 6'2"++ who were absolute ankle benders being signed by elite amateur teams back in the 60's & early 70's, playing Defence, just getting smoked like they were pylons yet getting regular shifts while other, somewhat smaller, far more talented & skilled Defencemen had been cut. One reason & one reason only... what was worse was that a lot of these big guys are essentially Gentle Giants, resenting the Coach, Manager for expecting them to do what it was quite clear they were expected to be doing. They just wanted to play hockey, hoping that in being signed to a AAA or Jr club, theyd get fantastic coaching, learn how to skate properly & efficiently, better than what theyd get at a lower rung. Well, not so much. Your supposed to have that dialled in upon arrival. I blame the GM's & Coaching fraternity for that back then. No need for it. Size doesnt even matter that much in an actual fight on the ice if that was to be their sole purpose in life as was seemingly the case. You get into it with some psycho 5'7" or whatever, against someone 6'+, well, good luck to the Big Guy. Its the smaller ones generally that are right off their nuts.

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07-23-2013, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Oh? You should pick up a copy of Eddie Shore & That Old Time Hockey. Highly entertaining. And sure, Eddie did have some strange ideas when it came to skating, how to hold your stick properly, you name it. As Owner/GM & Coach of Springfield in the 40's & 50's, some absolutely bizarre stories of his training methods recounted by players who were either witness to or the victims of Shores madness. He believed that in order to get maximum speed & efficiency in skating, the blades should be exactly, EXACTLY mind you 19" or so apart, the knees the same, the upper body upright, elbows as well thrust back & 19"'s from tip to tip. Players not skating the way Eddie prescribes? No problem. Cuts up 19" strands of rope. In practice, 19" piece of cord tied between the blades, between the knees, the players arms from elbow to elbow behind his back. Laps, starts & stops until the player collapses in exhaustion. Quick rest, at it again....

... from the beams in the old Springfield Arena, Eddie set up an elaborate block & tackle system of ropes & pullys. Back then, Wingers played The Lanes, Centres the centre of the ice, Defencemen rarely if ever crossing the opposing teams Blue Lines. No cycling like the Russians of the 60's onward, like todays game. If a player wasnt playing his Lanes, again during practice, Eddie would put the guy in a special harness with a rope attached to the beams through a pully, and during a scrimmage would grip the loose end of the rope and whenever the player strayed from his Lane, Eddie would hoist him right off the ice where he'd dangle, Shore lecturing him on "playing your lane, 19" apart skates, 21"'s separating your gloves on the stick" and so on & so forth.

Some guys would get the full treatment; ropes tied between their skates, knees & elbows, their gloved hands taped to the 2X4 piece of crap Wally sticks Eddie got for about .25 cents a piece by the gross, the harness attached, all trussed up like a Thanksgiving Turkey.... Goalies he believed should all be Stand-Up's. Would attach a Hangmans Noose from the Cross Bar of the net around the Goalies neck, then get players coming in on him with dekes, and the only way you can properly stop a deke is by going down into the semi or full Butterfly, though back then theyd sort of flop. If the guy went down anymore than a Butterfly, instantaneous & painful strangulation. Ya, Eddie Shore was a piece of work. Surprised youd not heard these stories before invictus.
Cool, thanks for sharing! Are they really that well known? Other than Penguins history, most of what I know I get from occasionally perusing these boards

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07-23-2013, 11:16 PM
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Cool, thanks for sharing! Are they really that well known? Other than Penguins history, most of what I know I get from occasionally perusing these boards
Most who delve into the history of hockey quite familiar with Eddie Shore, oh ya. One of the most eccentric & interesting characters to have ever played, been involved in the game. Hell of a player, notorious, and so too as Owner, GM & Coach in Springfield. Sort of a cross between a crazy but beloved Old Uncle and the Boogeyman.

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07-24-2013, 12:04 AM
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Very interesting. I honestly only know of him as "guy who played way back when and always ranks relatively highly in all-time stuff." Thanks for informing me a bit

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07-24-2013, 11:38 AM
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I can also go off and say that Shea Weber probably wouldnt have grown up on the West Coast of Canada. maybe due to the war he doesnt even live in the west, or in Canada at all.

I can say maybe he doesnt even play hockey because of all of this.


Make it simple. Put his body, his style of play and give him the equipment from back then and put him in the Original 6 era. Lets say 50s. How does he rack up against the best D man of back then, and how does he defend against the best attack?
He might not make it, most guys from BC didn't or he could star if he had lived in Ontario and developed like he did.

Way too many variables to even get a WAG (wild assed guess) IMO

just look at how few 06 NHLer's were born in BC

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv...ince=BC&state=

BC is a relative newcomer to the NHL talent pool stream.

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07-24-2013, 11:57 AM
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Shea Weber would have been a beefier Tim Horton with Geoffrion's shot.

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07-26-2013, 11:25 AM
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Howard McNamara weighed 240 on 6'0, pre O6. Him and his brother George, 220 on 6'1, were the "Dynamite Twins".

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07-26-2013, 12:12 PM
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Let me start by saying, WOW. I gotta love how this thread picked up. I was seriously thinking it became a lost cause. So much knowledge shared, so much creativity.

I cant say I disagree really with anything you guys say. One, its a tough question to answer. Do we transport him back in time? Do we act as though he grew up in that era? Or what else?

I guess in these type of questions, I like to act as though the individual was born in that time but we act as though he grew up relatively similar to his realistic attributes. I understand that is not the case. There are millions of factor that come into play. In that time he may not have existed, he may not have liked hockey, he may not even be from Canada lol. But I like to make it simple as it can be, though bravo on all the creativity! I love it.


So we are to assume he was born in that time and he took on hockey and his athleticism and a similar physique was created through the years so he can be as close to as possible the modern and realistic Shea Weber that he is... Then we can play this game more appropriately.

I mean, some of you guys act as though Shea Weber would be a physical god among men in the earlier leagues. I understand he would EASILY, at worst, be ONE of the strongest guys. One of the best skaters. One of the best players.

But lets not act as though the league had no tough SOBs. Had no freak athletes that even today we would awe at. Look at Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull for quick examples.

Gordie Howe was about 6'1 200lbs. Not far off from Shea Weber. who is 6'4, 240 (and just by height alone, I am sure Weber would be slightly less heavy). I believe Weber would dominate most oppositions who came his way but against Gordie Howe and the Red Wings? What a battle that would be. I can see Gordie sticking him with a few elbows as they talk about what they are doing over the weekend lol. Shea Weber will then be glad to grab his neck and shove him into the boards. The two would go at it like dogs. It be a sick battle


Bobby Hull was 5'10, 190lbs. Short, but the guy was nothing less of a physical speciman even for today. He was well built. And the guy also had a howitzer of a shot. Could Weber contend the Golden Jet?




Another thing is I feel many of you are underestimating the use of wooden sticks. Wooden sticks were very much popular even in the NHL up until a decade ago. I am only 22 years old and up until 14 years of age did I even consider anything besides wood. I am sure Shea Weber played many years with a wood stick. I am sure he could very well use it in the NHL today and not set him back significantly. new equipment with new technology does not give you complete overhaul of your performance. Maybe he Weber would not shoot 100mph slap shots with a wood stick but he probably would still have one of the hardest shots in the game...


The one big agreement I have on here so far is the rule of stick length. I did not know about that rule and it would cause issues. But I am sure the best players will still be among the best. But is it really a max of 58''? Because that is less than 5 feet lol. And I am looking at a ton of pics from back in the day that would say otherwise.

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07-26-2013, 12:16 PM
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Shea Weber was a 2nd? round pick for a new franchise in the NHL.

I like to imagine that back in the day Shea Weber would be a guy in the late 60's who is entering one of the new expansion teams of the NHL. And with his size, he probably would be drafted or picked up by the Philadelphia Flyers. Just fantasy, having fun with it.

Weber would help Clarke and the broadstreet bullies continue dominance and probably help them win a few more titles. But I would like to assume the Bruins and Flyers would still find ways to win more than 1 title in the 70s anyway.

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07-26-2013, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Thesensation19 View Post
I mean, some of you guys act as though Shea Weber would be a physical god among men in the earlier leagues. I understand he would EASILY, at worst, be ONE of the strongest guys. One of the best skaters. One of the best players.


But lets not act as though the league had no tough SOBs. Had no freak athletes that even today we would awe at. Look at Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull for quick examples.
Well, someone can correct me, but it occurs to me that Robinson was probably the strongest, most indomitable guy from his era along the walls and he was by no means as beefy as Weber. Put Weber of today in an era where everyone's even smaller and less into strength training and...yeah. He'd never lose a battle for a puck.

Hull and Howe, to use your examples, would be giving up 3-6 inches and God knows how many pounds of muscle. Have to remember strength training wasn't popular back then, but it's a way of life for an NHL all-star these days.



Consider now that Weber has 5 inches and about 20 pounds on this guy.



Quote:
Another thing is I feel many of you are underestimating the use of wooden sticks. Wooden sticks were very much popular even in the NHL up until a decade ago. I am only 22 years old and up until 14 years of age did I even consider anything besides wood. I am sure Shea Weber played many years with a wood stick. I am sure he could very well use it in the NHL today and not set him back significantly. new equipment with new technology does not give you complete overhaul of your performance. Maybe he Weber would not shoot 100mph slap shots with a wood stick but he probably would still have one of the hardest shots in the game...
This is true for you and me. But we don't maximize the potential of a composite stick like NHL players do. Weber in particular. If you freeze frame yours or my shot in mens league or whatever, it's not going to look like this



That picture makes me think if the stick was made of wood and Weber didn't know it, his wrist would get jammed pretty bad when the stick didn't bend. Looks more to me like he'd jam the stick straight into the ice with the entire weight of his body behind it, putting all the pressure of a stick that doesn't give and an ice rink that certainly isn't going to give on his wrist.

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07-26-2013, 05:33 PM
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^^^^ to the post above mine. ( I will not quote it due to a few reasons)

You first go out to say Robinson is one of the most indomitable players of his time but it seems to me that you are inferring that he would not be as effective in today's game. You dont have to be TALL, BIG or "beefy" to be strong along the boards or in the "tough" areas of the sport. Theres plenty of guys in the HISTORY of hockey that you can name who were elite around the boards or in the crease or in the tight spaces who were not the biggest, tallest, or beefiest and strongest.

Many of you make it seem that because Weber is 5-6 inches taller than the average player back then that he would be 100x stronger. That he would obliterate people like Letang is doing in your highlight. I am sure he would be doing that, often, but lets not make it seem like this is what he would do in every single play. Weber is currently 5 inches taller than the league average now so what is the difference? An inch off the average? Cmon! The biggest factor in all of this is the weight and that is due to the off-ice and strength conditioning but like I said, wipe that out.

I have a belief that great players are great players no matter what equipment they use... no matter what conditioning they use. A skill is a skill, and Weber is a skilled hockey player.


I bring up Howe and Hull because no matter what height or size, these two were physically imposing players. Both played in various generations of the game. Different eras and were elite in all of them basically. Your telling me Weber would have an easy time against Howe in the corners? I dont see how Weber leaves the corners without a few elbows in his face or in his gut.

I dont see how he has an easy time against players like Mikita, Hull, Richard, Geofrrin or any player you want to bring up from the past between 50s and 70s.

I bring up Hull because even at 5'10 the guy was 190lbs. Rock solid. Strong. No different than most players Weber goes up against today, except Hull was one of the best of all time.


So what do you mean giving up 3-6 inches? You can create an entire NHL all star team made up of Short players that all showed levels of dominance during their times. No different back then.


And then your explanation for a wood stick. I am sorry, but wow. What are you talking about.

He is bending the stick like that because of his form. The reason I cannot do something like that now is because of my form when I take a shot. Do you really think that Weber is all of a sudden the Hulk who can bend composite sticks at will? All he is doing is putting his weight behind a stick that is meant to bend. His hands in the right position, his feet in the right stance. Its a great form of a shot.

But then what are you talking about if Weber did not know if it was a wood stick? What? If all of a sudden the stick magically changed into a shorter wood stick? Idk, then yea I am sure if that magically happened anyone would have issues and risk of injury lol.


You act like Weber never played with a wood stick before. Wood sticks were dominant before the 21st century. I am sure he played with a wood stick most of his youth lol. He probably played with it all the way up until juniors.

Same goes for Chara especially over in Slovakia. He probably played with a wood stick all of his life until he came over here and probably then some.

Lets not act like these guys never played with a wood stick before. They would easily take it and play the game as normal as ever. The shot would not be as powerful. So what.

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07-29-2013, 02:50 PM
  #24
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There are a few guys in the history of the game who have been recorded in taking ridiculous slap shots. Bobby Hull has a legend that he shot a puck nearly 120mph a few times in a few differ years. There is technology speculation and other issues at the work here but I would not be surprised that with a wood stick, Bobby Hull back then could TODAY hit a puck over 90mph. And I would not be surprised to see Shea Weber do just as much...

I think Stan Mikita had an article on him where he says he made sure he would be able to do a 70mph slap shot today and I think he got it at 69.9 or something he said, would love to read it again. I actually think he said 80, and it was 79.9. But whatever. At his age that is incredible.

It just makes me think that a guy like Shea Weber is not as different back then as you all make it be. Whether hes using a wood stick or less equipment or have the size he has.

And speaking of size... You make it all seem like Shea Weber would be the only one of his stature. Larry Robinson as you all point out is 6'4 and 220lbs. Shea Weber is 6'4 and 230lbs.

Its 10 pounds! A lot of that extra muscle has to come with the new workout routine they have today. Lary Robinson today would probably be equivalent weight and power. But like i said ignore that. Just put the athlete into that time zone.

My points... his size, his slap shot... none of it is as different as you saw it back then. he would have been a more notable player though

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08-03-2013, 04:38 PM
  #25
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I think he'd be much of what we see today. Someone nailed it by labelling him as Tim Horton. He's taller than Horton, but I don't know about stronger since Tim was built like a greek god. Weber's shot is hard, and would be back then too, but I've always felt he should generate more offense from a shot like that. MacInnis shot just as hard but accurate, and low. So I don't think Weber is lighting it up offensively back then either.

He wouldn't be wearing a helmet either, but he'd be used to it.

I think Weber is going to the HHOF someday. He plays a style that is similar to Horton, I think. He's just taller. So there's my answer.

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