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Gretzky, Lemieux and their superpowers

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Old
08-02-2013, 07:12 PM
  #76
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Some mighty big assumptions there. Wayne was always around a 50% of his teams offense, ie in on around 50% of his teams goals.

175-180 points assumes a team scores at 350 plus rate for 5 years, pretty improbable.

The assumption is all based on what he did with 80's goalies and goaltending has just changed too much for even the best player in histroy to dominate at that type of level.

Many ex players will tell you how much the game has changed and how a very good junior hockey team in Canada could compete with a poor team from the 70's and even 80's in some cases.

It's pretty much a pointless en devour because we can't really even speculate on which team or with which players he might do the best.

Some will lean one way, and some the other way.

I'll take Wayne and his word on it.
I've said it before, but a lot of it is simply because we haven't had a Gretzky-like player since then either. You have to keep in mind, if the score was 3-0 in favour of the Oilers Gretzky would be trying to make it 4-0, and so on. He never let up. For whatever reason we don't see players like this anymore. And I don't buy this crap that you should take your foot off the gas pedal so that you don't run up the score. The last thing you do in professional sports is stop trying, that is the TRUE way to insult your opponent. But either way, there have been countless times when I've seen Crosby and co. let their foot off the pedal thinking a 2-0 or 3-0 lead is safe. Look at the 2012 playoffs against Philly. I'm sorry, but Gretzky would never let his team lose in that manner.

So since there hasn't been a player like Gretzky we have to assume he is doing much of the same, even today. He wouldn't take his foot off the pedal. Which means he's still scoring at breakneck speed and his teams are probably scoring in the 375 goal range. If the Capitals in 2010 got 318 then a Gretzky-led team would have gotten more.

Basically you are flirting with a 185 point season here.

I think that the last time we saw a truly dominant offensive season was 1995-'96 with Lemieux. The Pens scored 362 goals that year while Lemieux got 160 points. That's 44% of the Pens goals despite missing 12 games. Not too shabby. This was the last of the superhuman Lemieux that we saw and coincidentally we haven't seen a season of offensive proportions quite like that since. Can it just simply be that there has been a void left in the game from not having Lemieux and Gretzky-like players anymore?

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08-02-2013, 09:20 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I've said it before, but a lot of it is simply because we haven't had a Gretzky-like player since then either. You have to keep in mind, if the score was 3-0 in favour of the Oilers Gretzky would be trying to make it 4-0, and so on. He never let up. For whatever reason we don't see players like this anymore. And I don't buy this crap that you should take your foot off the gas pedal so that you don't run up the score. The last thing you do in professional sports is stop trying, that is the TRUE way to insult your opponent. But either way, there have been countless times when I've seen Crosby and co. let their foot off the pedal thinking a 2-0 or 3-0 lead is safe. Look at the 2012 playoffs against Philly. I'm sorry, but Gretzky would never let his team lose in that manner.

So since there hasn't been a player like Gretzky we have to assume he is doing much of the same, even today. He wouldn't take his foot off the pedal. Which means he's still scoring at breakneck speed and his teams are probably scoring in the 375 goal range. If the Capitals in 2010 got 318 then a Gretzky-led team would have gotten more.

Basically you are flirting with a 185 point season here.

I think that the last time we saw a truly dominant offensive season was 1995-'96 with Lemieux. The Pens scored 362 goals that year while Lemieux got 160 points. That's 44% of the Pens goals despite missing 12 games. Not too shabby. This was the last of the superhuman Lemieux that we saw and coincidentally we haven't seen a season of offensive proportions quite like that since. Can it just simply be that there has been a void left in the game from not having Lemieux and Gretzky-like players anymore?
Lemieux's half season back from retirement was pretty superhuman in the DPE
Imagine him in today's game.

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08-02-2013, 09:29 PM
  #78
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...Coffey was a faster skater than Bure?
Yes. Coffey was one of the finest skaters ever. Bure was very fast too, but it was his acceleration (ability to go from 0 to 10 in three strides) that was his strongest asset.

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08-03-2013, 10:17 AM
  #79
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Lemieux's half season back from retirement was pretty superhuman in the DPE
Imagine him in today's game.
It was as well, I figured I would just use a full season that we actually saw though, instead of a projection. Either way, it is no coincidence to me that these out of this world offensive seasons haven't happened since Lemieux and Gretzky died down.

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08-03-2013, 05:32 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I've said it before, but a lot of it is simply because we haven't had a Gretzky-like player since then either. You have to keep in mind, if the score was 3-0 in favour of the Oilers Gretzky would be trying to make it 4-0, and so on. He never let up. For whatever reason we don't see players like this anymore. And I don't buy this crap that you should take your foot off the gas pedal so that you don't run up the score. The last thing you do in professional sports is stop trying, that is the TRUE way to insult your opponent. But either way, there have been countless times when I've seen Crosby and co. let their foot off the pedal thinking a 2-0 or 3-0 lead is safe. Look at the 2012 playoffs against Philly. I'm sorry, but Gretzky would never let his team lose in that manner.
I suspect this has everything to do with today's coaching. Players like Crosby would surely like to keep playing and padding up their stats but this is simply not how the game is ordered to be played today. No one would be able to break scoring records in this environment.

I totally agree with those saying that Gretzky's and Lemieux's numbers were a result of the perfect storm of incredibly talented individuals thriving in an era where scoring broke loose. I don't understand why people keep getting offended by this.

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08-03-2013, 05:35 PM
  #81
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I suspect this has everything to do with today's coaching. Players like Crosby would surely like to keep playing and padding up their stats but this is simply not how the game is ordered to be played today. No one would be able to break scoring records in this environment.

I totally agree with those saying that Gretzky's and Lemieux's numbers were a result of the perfect storm of incredibly talented individuals thriving in an era where scoring broke loose. I don't understand why people keep getting offended by this.
Probably because Gretzky wasn't the product of "the perfect storm": Gretzky was the perfect storm.

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08-04-2013, 05:38 PM
  #82
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I suspect this has everything to do with today's coaching. Players like Crosby would surely like to keep playing and padding up their stats but this is simply not how the game is ordered to be played today. No one would be able to break scoring records in this environment.

I totally agree with those saying that Gretzky's and Lemieux's numbers were a result of the perfect storm of incredibly talented individuals thriving in an era where scoring broke loose. I don't understand why people keep getting offended by this.
But I think my point is that Gretzky was an outlier. He wasn't like anyone before him or after him. A coach wouldn't make a difference because what made Sather a great coach was that he let him do his thing and knew that he would win more games on his own talent than anything else he could incorporate. If you had a player like Gretzky you wouldn't try to change him, and Sather didn't, so I can't see why any coach today would.

Besides, since the dead puck era ended a 3-0 lead isn't safe anymore as we saw in the 2013 playoffs. You want a player that keeps the pedal to the metal. I don't know if it is based on the outrageous contracts that make today's players less likely to add to a lead or what, but what I really think it was, was just the fact that no player was driven to succeed quite as much as Gretzky shift after shift. So you can translate that into a much more dominant player that we just haven't ever seen since. This is why he would still be running away with scoring titles by February, in my mind.

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