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Free Agent FRENZY! Part IV Trade and proposals

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Old
07-19-2013, 09:34 AM
  #51
Cor
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"Lets trade Phaneuf because we have to sign Franson"

God damn none of you deserve Dion.

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07-19-2013, 09:35 AM
  #52
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It boggles my mind that there are still posters here that don't see Phaneufs value to this team. It's as if they've never watched a game nor understand hockey.

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Old
07-19-2013, 09:46 AM
  #53
Dangles McGavin
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I like Dion.

I like Shea Weber a whole lot more.

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Old
07-19-2013, 09:58 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
"Lets trade Phaneuf because we have to sign Franson"

God damn none of you deserve Dion.
I guess we shouldn't have him then :p

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07-19-2013, 10:12 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Dangles McGavin View Post
I like Dion.

I like Shea Weber a whole lot more.
You know his team just finished 4th last right?

Shows how much Norris D-men on their own can do.

Don't get me wrong, Shea Weber is great...but the difference between Weber and Phaneuf really isn't as big as some people like to believe.

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07-19-2013, 10:20 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
You know his team just finished 4th last right?

Shows how much Norris D-men on their own can do.

Don't get me wrong, Shea Weber is great...but the difference between Weber and Phaneuf really isn't as big as some people like to believe.
Ah, but the grass is greener, didn't you know? I didn't realize how great Grabovski was until the Leafs cut him.

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07-19-2013, 10:22 AM
  #57
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Ah, but the grass is greener, didn't you know? I didn't realize how great Grabovski was until the Leafs cut him.
No kidding, take out Grabovski's name, and you'd think the Leafs bought out Crosby.

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07-19-2013, 10:39 AM
  #58
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I have this really big feeling, if we had Shea Weber, and Phaneuf was available, we'd want to have Phaneuf and ditch Weber.

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07-19-2013, 10:47 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post
If I'm trading Phaneuf I'm looking for a top pairing potential D-man on an ELC, and a young controllable winger who could slot into that last spot in our top six.

Deals would include (in order of favourites):

St. Louis: Pietrangelo + Stewart (we would obviously have to substantially add)

Anaheim: Fowler + Smith-Pelley (Elisha would love this one)

Minnesota: Brodin + Coyle (Would need to include a third team to take Heatley to make this work) Maybe: Phaneuf + 1st for Brodin + Coyle + Heatley then trade Heatley to NJ for 2015 1st round pick.

New Jersey : Larsson + Bernier

New York Isles: Hamonic + Okposo (might need to add)

Buffalo: Myers + Foligno (would rather not trade him to Buffalo though)

New York Rangers: Del Zotto + Kreider (might need to add)

Mostly very unrealistic trades for just Phanuef. Would likely have to add to all of them, unless the other teams were able to re-up Dion.
I like the St. Louis and Buffalo proposals, but if the Leafs got Peterangelo and Stewart signed, where would that leave the cap?

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Old
07-19-2013, 10:51 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by SarcazemKadri View Post
It boggles my mind that there are still posters here that don't see Phaneufs value to this team. It's as if they've never watched a game nor understand hockey.
Honestly, I haven't seen a debate this divisive amongst Leafs fans in a long time. In my opinion (and I watched every game last season), Phaneuf is not THAT valuable to this team. Let me give you my perspective. I'm not going to throw around stats like everyone else. Stats are just stats. There is such a thing as qualitative assessment.

1. Yes he plays a lot of minutes, but there are a lot of guys who could play those minutes. He actually plays too many minutes in my opinion. He gets gassed really easily, is slow and gets caught flat footed too often when he is too tired.

2. Sure he's a physical player, but not as much as he used to be, and he definitely does not use his body at the most important times, to clear guys from in front of the net. He'll throw a big hit occasionally, but it often leaves him out of position.

3. His shooting did improve over the season, but he takes too many shots that miss the net. And he needs to be the trigger man on the PP, not the quarterback. He's just not good enough at carrying the puck into the zone.

4. He's not a good leader. You need to be respected by your co-workers to be considered a good leader. Being that he is viewed as the most over-rated player by his peers, I can't imagine how much players look to him for inspiration. He's also terrible with the media, terribly awkward.

5. Last but not least, the most important quality of a #1D by far is intelligence. You can be a super skilled forward (more so winger) and make stupid decisions and get away with it. Defenders who make stupid decisions do not last long in this league. Look at two of the greatest D men of the last decade, Lidstrom and Niedermayer. Smart, composed, calm, intelligent.

Phaneuf is amazing at what he does. The problem is that what he does does not suit the role he is required to play on this team. There are other teams that could use a guy like him in the way he is meant to be used. Does it leave a void? Of course. But hopefully, one of our young d-men will step up and become the leader that we've always needed out from Dion. Will that mean we take a step back. Yes. Are we going to win the cup next season? No. Is that important. In my opinion, not as important as long-term success.

At the end of this post, I'm realizing that those that are against trading Dion are not willing to step back a bit for the sake of moving forward. Patience friends, patience.

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07-19-2013, 11:04 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post
If I'm trading Phaneuf I'm looking for a top pairing potential D-man on an ELC, and a young controllable winger who could slot into that last spot in our top six.

Deals would include (in order of favourites):

St. Louis: Pietrangelo + Stewart (we would obviously have to substantially add)

Anaheim: Fowler + Smith-Pelley (Elisha would love this one)

Minnesota: Brodin + Coyle (Would need to include a third team to take Heatley to make this work) Maybe: Phaneuf + 1st for Brodin + Coyle + Heatley then trade Heatley to NJ for 2015 1st round pick.

New Jersey : Larsson + Bernier

New York Isles: Hamonic + Okposo (might need to add)

Buffalo: Myers + Foligno (would rather not trade him to Buffalo though)

New York Rangers: Del Zotto + Kreider (might need to add)

Mostly very unrealistic trades for just Phanuef. Would likely have to add to all of them, unless the other teams were able to re-up Dion.
I would definitely do the New York islander one except change Okposo to Colin McDonald and the offer would be more appealing for New York

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Old
07-19-2013, 11:31 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post
1. Yes he plays a lot of minutes, but there are a lot of guys who could play those minutes. He actually plays too many minutes in my opinion. He gets gassed really easily, is slow and gets caught flat footed too often when he is too tired.
You are right. He plays too many minutes, but that is because there is absolutely no one else that can handle them. If we had a serviceable #2 defensman and not just stop gaps like Gunnarson and Holzer we would see much better play. Dion is at his best when playing 24-25 minutes a night. He plays against every teams first line and does so with the worst d partner in comparison to other top d men.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post
2. Sure he's a physical player, but not as much as he used to be, and he definitely does not use his body at the most important times, to clear guys from in front of the net. He'll throw a big hit occasionally, but it often leaves him out of position.
Dion rarely fights any more, nor dishes out the big open ice hits. He has become much more responsible in this regard. He understands he is more valuable to the leafs when in the play and not in the penalty box. Yes, the Dion haters will say "remember when he missed the hit in the Boston series, and cost us bla bla" That goes back to #1. Dion plays far too many tough minutes. Tired players = mistakes. Plus - every player makes mistakes, it is only Leaf Nation that puts each one under the microscope.

Look, even the perfect d-man Chara made a mistake!

http://www.csnphilly.com/sportsnetPh...ra-mistake.htm

Had this been Dion he would have been chased out of Toronto with pitchforks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post
4. He's not a good leader. You need to be respected by your co-workers to be considered a good leader. Being that he is viewed as the most over-rated player by his peers, I can't imagine how much players look to him for inspiration. He's also terrible with the media, terribly awkward.
How can you possibly know what kind of leader Dion is? Have you been in the dressing room before game time? After losses? I would assume not. Do you think the coaching staff just picked a name out of a hat when picking Dion as captain? There was obviously reason to believe he was the leader in the room before hand. Captains don't just become leaders because they were selected as Captain. They are leaders, and thus are given the title. Dion is not bad in interviews, reserved, maybe. But he is in no way awkward. He plays in the most heavily scrutinized hockey market in the world. If he were animated in his interviews, the media would tear it apart.

As for the overrated poll:

2011 Season: 12th in Dman pt totals, 9th in goals, 44pts/82 games.
2012 Season: 10th in Dman pt totals, 6th in goals, 28pts/48games.

I would hazard a guess that many that voted him overrated are far behind him in these categories. Are they then not more overrated themselves? How can you justify him being overrated when there is factual evidence proving otherwise. Maybe those who voted him overrated just hate playing against him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post
5. Last but not least, the most important quality of a #1D by far is intelligence. You can be a super skilled forward (more so winger) and make stupid decisions and get away with it. Defenders who make stupid decisions do not last long in this league. Look at two of the greatest D men of the last decade, Lidstrom and Niedermayer. Smart, composed, calm, intelligent.
Comparing Dion to those dman is unfair. There isn't a dman in the league on their intelligence level, other than possibly Karlsson.

Dion is without doubt, a top 10 d man in this league. His short comings are a result of him being overworked.

I respect your opinions, but only because everyone is entitled to them.

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Old
07-19-2013, 11:39 AM
  #63
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I have this really big feeling, if we had Shea Weber, and Phaneuf was available, we'd want to have Phaneuf and ditch Weber.
Not even close, lol.

And I actually think highly of Phaneuf and think he has proven enough to be a very solid defender.

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07-19-2013, 11:42 AM
  #64
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I think if Phaneuf is asking for too much or doesn't have much desire to sign here, we should definitely consider moving him. I still think he could garner a decent return and if Rielly and Gards hopefully reachtheir potential, we won't have much concern on the blueline in the long-run.

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07-19-2013, 11:43 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by rumman View Post
I like the St. Louis and Buffalo proposals, but if the Leafs got Peterangelo and Stewart signed, where would that leave the cap?
You are correct. Stewart and Pietrangelo would be too much salary. I guess then maybe I would be happy just getting Pietrangelo back. Might not have to add much to Phanuef in this case.

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07-19-2013, 11:55 AM
  #66
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Frankly I'd keep Dion at his current salary. I don't see a downside right now - he's a top pairing D on a team lacking top-pairing players. The only thing enticing about a return for Dion are the prospects returning but none mentioned look to have the same potential as Dion has or is. Move one of Franson or Gunnarson.

I just hope the deal is reasonable @ $6M ish.

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Old
07-19-2013, 12:11 PM
  #67
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Just curious.. does anyone have any examples of a player coming off a pretty long deal like Phaneufs then re-signing with the team for the same cap hit?

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07-19-2013, 12:15 PM
  #68
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Sorry if this is a dumb question, but do players ever re-sign when they have more than one year left on their contract?

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07-19-2013, 12:24 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post
You are correct. Stewart and Pietrangelo would be too much salary. I guess then maybe I would be happy just getting Pietrangelo back. Might not have to add much to Phanuef in this case.
don't get me wrong, I would love to see both Peterangelo AND Stewart on the Leafs, however, IF St. Louis would be interested in Dion, what else would have to go west? I'm thinking Kulemin would be of great interest to Hitchcock, a winger who is defensively responsible, and plays Hitchcock style hockey, but Leafs would still have to throw in a significant pick/prospect IMO. Then the Leafs would have to free up payroll, trading Lilies would accomplish this as long as it doesn't mean taking on salary. Then IMO, the Leafs would be a #1 centre away from really being an elite team, and who knows, maybe Bozak or Kadri could become that player?

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07-19-2013, 12:25 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by BleedsToronto View Post
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but do players ever re-sign when they have more than one year left on their contract?
Phaneuf and Kessel weren't able to re-sign until July 5th.

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Old
07-19-2013, 12:26 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by dubplatepressure View Post
Frankly I'd keep Dion at his current salary. I don't see a downside right now - he's a top pairing D on a team lacking top-pairing players. The only thing enticing about a return for Dion are the prospects returning but none mentioned look to have the same potential as Dion has or is. Move one of Franson or Gunnarson.

I just hope the deal is reasonable @ $6M ish.
Phaneuf - Gunnarson is a pairing that worked very well against top lines of other teams .. As pointed out above, the only struggling when Phaneuf played over 24 minutes per game ... IMO the Leafs need to develop a complimentary pairing that can handle taking on more minutes. This is something that Gardiner was showing potential of as the Boston series went on, he just needs a capable partner

The Leafs are in a position with so many young defenseman already with more knocking on the door, that their core will be one of the youngest in the league ... You resign Phaneuf to keep him as the vet leader of the group that can match against teams top lines until one of the younger guys proves their better

IMO you resign Gunnar a 3 years for $3 per this season, Phaneuf at $6.75 for 5 more seasons and ideally have this going forward for the top 4:

Phaneuf - Gunnarson <- Log 21-23 minutes per game
Gardiner - Granberg <- he is showing potential that he can be that ideal partner to start with, eventually working his way to the top pairing

Then have a bottom pairing sheltered and playing against weaker opponents to allow Rielly to bring his offense out while learning defense at the NHL level:

Rielly - Franson <- This spot is wide open for Franson or any prospect to earn it, whether it's Percy, Holzer, etc

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Old
07-19-2013, 12:38 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Dangles McGavin View Post
I like Dion.

I like Shea Weber a whole lot more.
We're not getting Shea Weber! For crying out loud. People are picking and choosing players they want from teams as if 1)It's that easy 2)They're the GM and 3) The team is actively shopping Dion around because they misunderstood what the REAL GM said

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07-19-2013, 12:50 PM
  #73
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We're not getting Shea Weber! For crying out loud. People are picking and choosing players they want from teams as if 1)It's that easy 2)They're the GM and 3) The team is actively shopping Dion around because they misunderstood what the REAL GM said
"We should trade Dion, just so we can go trade for Shea Weber!"

"We should give up assets to make a small upgrade!"

You are calling these stupid?

Mah Gawd

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Old
07-19-2013, 03:34 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by KuleminFan41 View Post
We're not getting Shea Weber! For crying out loud. People are picking and choosing players they want from teams as if 1)It's that easy 2)They're the GM and 3) The team is actively shopping Dion around because they misunderstood what the REAL GM said
Never did I say we're getting Shea Weber.

People were, in a sense, arguing that Dion brings as much (or more) to this team than Weber would.

Which is false. I like Dion; he's a great player, but Weber is far superior.

That's all I was saying. Also asked if people would do Dion + Lupul (+?) for Weber

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Old
07-19-2013, 03:35 PM
  #75
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"We should trade Dion, just so we can go trade for Shea Weber!"

"We should give up assets to make a small upgrade!"

You are calling these stupid?

Mah Gawd
I suggested Dion + Lupul + for Weber, to see what peoples' opinions were.

Have any of you ever heard of 'context'?

Meh.

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