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How good would Luke Schenn have been under Carlyle?

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Old
07-20-2013, 07:57 PM
  #101
Antropovsky
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Saw schenn recently in person, physique wise he has a long ways to go to be imposing. It amazes me that these guys are paid millions to be athletes and you wouldn't even guess that they were athletes if they walked past you on the street. Doesn't surprise me that his training was questioned a couple years ago, by management.

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07-20-2013, 08:05 PM
  #102
Stephen
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Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
If both sides are happy with the trade why is it a fleecing? The fact that Beauch was a Duck has nothing to do with the later trade. The Ducks couldn't afford to resign him at the time so it isnt like we stolle him from them in the first place either.

Why do you and other insist on naming a winner on this trade, will we get a special award for it if you convince enough people?
I'm saying we won the trade because we won the trade. Flip it around the other way.

If the Leafs had let Beauchemin walk, only to trade for him 18 months later by giving up a first round pick who is shaping up to be a great young defenseman and a guy who would blossom into a point a game scorer on the first line, people would be storming the ACC no matter how good Beauchemin was doing here.

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07-20-2013, 08:10 PM
  #103
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He would probs be pretty good, but JVR rounds out our top six SO NICELY, i believe he is a huge piece to this team... Hes the only guy who i think has potential to outscore Kessel.

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07-20-2013, 08:11 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I'm saying we won the trade because we won the trade. Flip it around the other way.

If the Leafs had let Beauchemin walk, only to trade for him 18 months later by giving up a first round pick who is shaping up to be a great young defenseman and a guy who would blossom into a point a game scorer on the first line, people would be storming the ACC no matter how good Beauchemin was doing here.
How does one win a trade though? Getting players that help the team? You keep arguing that the Leafs got better assets. You make a trade to improve your team, and the Ducks traded a prospect and a 3rd liner for a top pairing defensemen. They improved their team, does that mean they won? If you're basing win and loss of a trade on value gained, then you shouldn't stop viewing trades through the EA engine.

Your second paragraph sound almost exactly like the Kessel trade. Lupul benefited from a change of scenery, not a later development curve.

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07-20-2013, 10:11 PM
  #105
cyris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I'm saying we won the trade because we won the trade. Flip it around the other way.

If the Leafs had let Beauchemin walk, only to trade for him 18 months later by giving up a first round pick who is shaping up to be a great young defenseman and a guy who would blossom into a point a game scorer on the first line, people would be storming the ACC no matter how good Beauchemin was doing here.
Beauchemin leaving and signing with us has nothing to do with the trade. It was clearly a mistake for them to let him leave but it has nothing to do with the trade.

If we had traded Beauch to a different team for the same kind of return it would be a win win trade. So this should be.
No duck fans on here complain about the trade, they are frustrated they didnt just resign him when the team had the chance but they are very happy with the trade.

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07-21-2013, 12:37 AM
  #106
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If we had Beauchemin, we would essentially have two top pairings.

Phaneuf - Gunnarsson
Beauchemin - Franson

We would've been able to field two effective shut down pairings, and that would benefit everyone. The following reason, we would have been able to slot in Rielly, who may develop into a, two-way, puck rushing defenceman. Just imagine having:

Rielly - Phaneuf
Beauchemin - Franson

PS: I do like Gardiner and would like to see him on the first pairing with Phaneuf. Rielly will likely supplant him eventually, but I could see it working for at least a season or two.

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07-21-2013, 12:51 AM
  #107
Tak7
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From the 15-odd games that I watched of the Flyers this season, including one live, Schenn really looked like the Schenn that left Toronto - one who was flat footed, very uncomfortable on the puck, and really lacking conviction on the ice.

I'm sure he will bounce back and turn into the one that played pretty well in his early seasons here, but I don't think Carlyle would have turned him into an elite shutdown Dman or anything like that.

To be honest, it wasn't as if the Leafs were playing strict, extremely tight defensive hockey last season - Schenn would have struggled in Carlyle's "system", which relied heavily on great goaltending and a crazy high shooting percentage

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07-21-2013, 12:55 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
How does one win a trade though? Getting players that help the team? You keep arguing that the Leafs got better assets. You make a trade to improve your team, and the Ducks traded a prospect and a 3rd liner for a top pairing defensemen. They improved their team, does that mean they won? If you're basing win and loss of a trade on value gained, then you shouldn't stop viewing trades through the EA engine.

Your second paragraph sound almost exactly like the Kessel trade. Lupul benefited from a change of scenery, not a later development curve.
At one point in time, Anaheim was in possession of Beauchemin, Gardiner and Lupul. They let one guy go, decided they wanted him back and let the other two, who turned out to be fantastic assets, to get him back.

There's just a level of indecisiveness and then paying a premium to correct an initial mistake that can't be excused on Anaheim's part.

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07-21-2013, 01:00 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
Beauchemin leaving and signing with us has nothing to do with the trade. It was clearly a mistake for them to let him leave but it has nothing to do with the trade.

If we had traded Beauch to a different team for the same kind of return it would be a win win trade. So this should be.
No duck fans on here complain about the trade, they are frustrated they didnt just resign him when the team had the chance but they are very happy with the trade.
It has everything to do with the trade. We took a guy for free, then sold him back to where he came from for the entire ELC of Jake Gardiner and whatever career he will have here or assets he could bring back in a trade, in addition to a guy who is a first line winger here.

As far as Ducks fans are concerned, they aren't looking at things right if they're cool with the trade. If that was Toronto letting Beauchemin go and then chasing after him with assets that turned out like Gardiner and Lupul to correct a mistake, that would go down as one of the most horrible cases of asset management ever, regardless if you're happy with having Beauchemin back.

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07-21-2013, 01:55 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak7 View Post
From the 15-odd games that I watched of the Flyers this season, including one live, Schenn really looked like the Schenn that left Toronto - one who was flat footed, very uncomfortable on the puck, and really lacking conviction on the ice.

I'm sure he will bounce back and turn into the one that played pretty well in his early seasons here, but I don't think Carlyle would have turned him into an elite shutdown Dman or anything like that.

To be honest, it wasn't as if the Leafs were playing strict, extremely tight defensive hockey last season - Schenn would have struggled in Carlyle's "system", which relied heavily on great goaltending and a crazy high shooting percentage
Great goaltending? Our system was pretty conservative on the defensive side. The problem was our forwards weren't strong enough to drive possession consistently and poor puck support from up front as well. If anything, our system actually insulated the goalie and that is why we moved a pretty significant number of pieces for Bernier.

Carlyle was always to use a possession driving format. That is, three skilled lines and a combined checking/ energy line. When his shut down line produced as much as the top lines in the playoffs, the Ducks won the cup. In contrast, an under-performing shutdown line even with a higher producing top scoring line. I think if one of Getlzaf and Perry can go up against the top lines, it would've made it a lot more difficult to the opposition to produce.

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07-21-2013, 12:11 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by BIitz View Post

@ OP, I don't feel this is the right place for discussion about Schenn. You'd be hard pressed to find people in this thread who have seen more than 10 games of Schenn this year and have this pre-set opinion that he is no longer good, based on a year ago. I put him in a poll vs Fraser and Frason and Schenn came out ahead. I also find it funny how people say Fraser replaced him when they aren't even in the same league.

Don't understand the Schenn hate here, never will. Fan favorite when he was here, hard working kid, likeable guy. Second he is gone BAM! let's look at his flaws only Like Burkie always did, I thank him for his time and wish him the best of luck, cause as I said earlier people are still basing their opinion of him from 2 years ago.
Defensively Franson > Schenn
Offensively Franson >>>>>> Schenn
I'm sorry, but ppl who voted in your poll are either on drugs, base their vote on name they heard more often or, as you say later, on their play 2 years ago.
When you laugh about Fraser replacing Schenn, you just failing to realize that people refer specifically to physicality aspect of shutdown pair, clearing the crease and intimidating opposition's forwards, at which role Fraser is probably better than Schenn anyway. And then we have Franson with added physical play, minutes and responsibilities (on PP where Schenn was black hole), who is simply better player than Schenn atm.

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07-21-2013, 02:38 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by BIitz View Post
No offence, but I feel half the people who are claiming we "rushed" or "ruined" him have no idea the reason you leave a prospect down. I don't think Schenn was rushed, nor do I think he is bad.

@ OP, I don't feel this is the right place for discussion about Schenn. You'd be hard pressed to find people in this thread who have seen more than 10 games of Schenn this year and have this pre-set opinion that he is no longer good, based on a year ago. I put him in a poll vs Fraser and Frason and Schenn came out ahead. I also find it funny how people say Fraser replaced him when they aren't even in the same league.

Don't understand the Schenn hate here, never will. Fan favorite when he was here, hard working kid, likeable guy. Second he is gone BAM! let's look at his flaws only Like Burkie always did, I thank him for his time and wish him the best of luck, cause as I said earlier people are still basing their opinion of him from 2 years ago.
Why would you even compare Franson and Schenn? They aren't even the same kind of player.

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