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Phoenix XCVIII: 5tayin' Alive

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Old
07-26-2013, 02:49 PM
  #226
aqib
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I think Council Members actually receive a stipend of $8000 per annum, but no idea what the ceiling is on their expenses per se'. Cant imagine it would be a whole lot in a city of that size. So ya, $100,000 dropped on Beacon & the RFP process, finally providing themselves with some real numbers, cold hard facts & leverage in dealing with the Bully Boys from RSE & the NHL, and they just toss it out the window of a speeding car like Rick James on Blow. $100,000 aint chump change. That right there paying the Council for a year with money left over. My God. At anytime over the past 4yrs, all they had to do if they wanted to know, ballparked, what it would cost to hire an arena management company, including some loose projections on bookings, all they had to do was instruct Beasley or Skeete, this Interim Manager to simply pick up the phone & call SMG, couple others, ask for a rough estimate if even just verbally. Not rocket science. Same sort of thing if your thinking of an adding an extension to your home or whatever. Doesnt cost anything to get some quotes.
I think the problem is that the city didn't have the competency to write a simple RFP. They needed to have a formal quote in writing so that they could have something firm to compare it to. Why they needed an outside vendor for that? My guess is the relationships between the council members is so toxic that no one trusts anyone.

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07-26-2013, 03:30 PM
  #227
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Could you explain exactly how the Coyotes make more money for the other teams.I must have missed something in the last 17 years.
I'd also like to hear the answer to that one as well

PS A little off topic but it will be interesting to see just how many Jets fans attend the Jet's at Coyotes game April 1/14 in Glendale, I would venture to guess a few thousand Winnipeg folk own homes in the Phoenix metro.


Last edited by sipowicz: 07-26-2013 at 03:38 PM.
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Old
07-26-2013, 04:57 PM
  #228
Edgar Halliwax
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
.... awesome.

And without the aid of alcohol or drugs took place right before my very eyes as I read that. Good job CF. EXACTLY whats gonna happen Im sure. You even nailed the nuances.
Having spend a decade early in my career as a bean counter - I believe the term is "creative accounting"...

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07-26-2013, 04:58 PM
  #229
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I played and have coached this game for years and know and have known countless Canadians. Hell, I've got Canadian kin folk! Love of country and or hockey doesn't make it any less curious.

Don't drink and DEFINITLEY don't golf..... Are you in for saddling up on a rode bike and cycling a century?
No doubt, we definitely have some bad eggs.

I'm in for a ride on a rode bike

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07-26-2013, 05:08 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
I'd also like to hear the answer to that one as well

PS A little off topic but it will be interesting to see just how many Jets fans attend the Jet's at Coyotes game April 1/14 in Glendale, I would venture to guess a few thousand Winnipeg folk own homes in the Phoenix metro.
All are welcome to come watch out professional ice hockey team!

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07-26-2013, 06:13 PM
  #231
kihekah19
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No doubt, we definitely have some bad eggs.

I'm in for a ride on a rode bike

Yeah, there's bad eggs everywhere - people are people no matter where ya go eh.

As for the ride.... the grin means you understand that YOU are the motor and that you have no intention of pedaling 100 miles, yes?

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07-26-2013, 06:23 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by pondnorth View Post
Could you explain exactly how the Coyotes make more money for the other teams.I must have missed something in the last 17 years.
Their lack of revenue keeps the Cap lower, which reduces costs to the other teams. Reduced costs lead to more profit. Yes I guess you did miss something in the last 17 years.

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07-26-2013, 06:37 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
Their lack of revenue keeps the Cap lower, which reduces costs to the other teams. Reduced costs lead to more profit. Yes I guess you did miss something in the last 17 years.
True Orr,

However, it is a balance, right? In order to keep the team in PHX, the other owners are first offering an 85M no interest for 5 years loan, and then apparently promising max Rev Sharing, and a big chunk of the development fund.

I don't know the numbers, but let's say it's something like this:
PHX has 30M less revenues that QUE would have. That means that the salary floor is lower by about 1/2M per team for the rest of the league. PHX being there saves the league 15M in salary costs ONLY IF TEAMS SPEND TO THE FLOOR OR CAP. Anyone in between in not affected.

So, for the potential 15M (again, my numbers are a guess), the league has to offer the loan, plus give the Rev Sharing (which would go to other teams instead otherwise), and the Development Fund.

And, you also have to consider that in a small measure, the value of every team in the league affects the value of the others. So, a team like PHX, which has NO value in its present market (45M maybe, that's all RSE is putting in), depresses the value of the other franchises, too.

It is not a slam dunk at all that "Keeping the team in a lower revenue market saves the other owners money."

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Old
07-26-2013, 06:45 PM
  #234
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Everyone and their dog knows the CoG and RSE setup their meetings so they could get around the open meeting laws, and it doesn't take a lawyer to see that. Nobody believes the CoG had Bettman, Daly, and RSE fly into town to have 4 separate meetings to discuss the same thing in all 4 meetings for fun. They did it to circumvent meeting laws.

At the end of the day will it make any difference? None what so ever. But to say they didn't try to get around something... stop drinking the Coyote kool-aid.

I know why they set their meetings up the way they did.

Point I'm getting at is until a court or the AG says it's a violation.... it isn't one.

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07-26-2013, 06:49 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
Their lack of revenue keeps the Cap lower, which reduces costs to the other teams. Reduced costs lead to more profit. Yes I guess you did miss something in the last 17 years.

Minor nit, but the cap hasn't been around for 17 yrs.

I don't think the rest of your statement is accurate. The rich teams have driven the cap upward in every year (except 2008-09, iirc)-- in spite of the drag by poor teams. The top ten then have to make up the difference via the revenue transfer program. If the teams closer to each other in terms of HRR, you might see less having to go into revenue transfer. It's really how that total HRR figure is distributed amongst the teams.

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07-26-2013, 07:31 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
I'd also like to hear the answer to that one as well

PS A little off topic but it will be interesting to see just how many Jets fans attend the Jet's at Coyotes game April 1/14 in Glendale, I would venture to guess a few thousand Winnipeg folk own homes in the Phoenix metro.
It's between the Jets @ Yotes, Jets @ Kings, or Jets @ Lightning for us, not sure I would pass up LA or Tampa Bay to go to Glendale though, considering it will take over an hour from my new Condo to get to the rink

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Originally Posted by kihekah19 View Post
Yeah, there's bad eggs everywhere - people are people no matter where ya go eh.

As for the ride.... the grin means you understand that YOU are the motor and that you have no intention of pedaling 100 miles, yes?
Yeah I got it What do you take me for an overweight opinionated armchair GM? Well maybe the last two, but definitely not overweight

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07-26-2013, 07:32 PM
  #237
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Minor nit, but the cap hasn't been around for 17 yrs.

I don't think the rest of your statement is accurate. The rich teams have driven the cap upward in every year (except 2008-09, iirc)-- in spite of the drag by poor teams. The top ten then have to make up the difference via the revenue transfer program. If the teams closer to each other in terms of HRR, you might see less having to go into revenue transfer. It's really how that total HRR figure is distributed amongst the teams.
The Cap exists now and is likely to exist as long as the NHL does so that is the frame work now. Before the Cap low revenue teams could reduce costs by spending less on players they are now required to spend to the cap floor. The high revenue teams will always be driving the Cap up and the Cap is likely to keep increasing.

Please show me in the CBA where Revenue sharing goes down if the Coyotes do not exist. Yes a couple of teams with low revenue would get higher transfers but that will be countered by having a higher cap. Do you believe the other 25 or 26 owners want to spend up to one million more per year on players just to benefit a couple teams?

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07-26-2013, 09:51 PM
  #238
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I'm a huge supporter of hockey in 'Zona. I don't want to read through this thread, so can someone just give me the odds of this deal passing? And as a follow up, if this passes, then the Yotes are 100% guaranteed 5 more years right?

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07-26-2013, 10:46 PM
  #239
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I'm a huge supporter of hockey in 'Zona.
Id say theres a 90% chance it closes on August 4th and yes, provided it does close, then the Coyotes have won themselves a reprieve. A lot can happen in 5yrs. They just might make it. Stranger things have happened.

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07-26-2013, 11:02 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
I'd also like to hear the answer to that one as well

PS A little off topic but it will be interesting to see just how many Jets fans attend the Jet's at Coyotes game April 1/14 in Glendale, I would venture to guess a few thousand Winnipeg folk own homes in the Phoenix metro.
That game is going to be packed with JetsNation peeps... You can also drive down to Grand Forks and jump on a direct charter flight for only $150.00 return.
The prices arnt up for April but here is a link for a average price.
https://www2.allegiantair.com/aares#...9cc5226b07b3a3

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Old
07-26-2013, 11:13 PM
  #241
sipowicz
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That game is going to be packed with JetsNation peeps... You can also drive down to Grand Forks and jump on a direct charter flight for only $150.00 return.
The prices arnt up for April but here is a link for a average price.
https://www2.allegiantair.com/aares#...9cc5226b07b3a3
Yeah it's cheaper to pay for a flight and ticket to a Coyotes game than the price of admission alone to a Jets game in Winnipeg (if you can even find a ticket)

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07-27-2013, 12:09 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
Their lack of revenue keeps the Cap lower, which reduces costs to the other teams. Reduced costs lead to more profit. Yes I guess you did miss something in the last 17 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
True Orr,

However, it is a balance, right? In order to keep the team in PHX, the other owners are first offering an 85M no interest for 5 years loan, and then apparently promising max Rev Sharing, and a big chunk of the development fund.

I don't know the numbers, but let's say it's something like this:
PHX has 30M less revenues that QUE would have. That means that the salary floor is lower by about 1/2M per team for the rest of the league. PHX being there saves the league 15M in salary costs ONLY IF TEAMS SPEND TO THE FLOOR OR CAP. Anyone in between in not affected.

So, for the potential 15M (again, my numbers are a guess), the league has to offer the loan, plus give the Rev Sharing (which would go to other teams instead otherwise), and the Development Fund.

And, you also have to consider that in a small measure, the value of every team in the league affects the value of the others. So, a team like PHX, which has NO value in its present market (45M maybe, that's all RSE is putting in), depresses the value of the other franchises, too.

It is not a slam dunk at all that "Keeping the team in a lower revenue market saves the other owners money."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
The Cap exists now and is likely to exist as long as the NHL does so that is the frame work now. Before the Cap low revenue teams could reduce costs by spending less on players they are now required to spend to the cap floor. The high revenue teams will always be driving the Cap up and the Cap is likely to keep increasing.

Please show me in the CBA where Revenue sharing goes down if the Coyotes do not exist. Yes a couple of teams with low revenue would get higher transfers but that will be countered by having a higher cap. Do you believe the other 25 or 26 owners want to spend up to one million more per year on players just to benefit a couple teams?
It does not make other teams more profitable. No team is required to spend to the cap so the cap amount is irrelevant. The players get x amount of the revenues regardless of where it comes from so if the league has 1 billion in HRR then the players get 500 mil. period. end of story.

The revenue sharing, by giving it to the Yotes instead of other teams means that the league as a whole is supporting the franchise financially. Do a team like say Dallas who should get say 3 mil in revenue sharing will get nothing. So now Dallas, if they lost 3 mil that year would require a cash call or finaniccng instead of breaking even.

So how does the Yotes losing a boatload of money benefit the league? IF there was an additional 30 mil in revenue by moving the team to quebec sure the players would get 50% but who do you think gets the other half? That's right, the owners. So instead of forking money over to support a franchise they would have more money in their pockets due to the increased revenues.

Losing money is NEVER a good thing. And do not give me the crap about tax break because someone is still footing the bill. Guess who that is - everyone who paid taxes.

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07-27-2013, 12:27 AM
  #243
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That game is going to be packed with JetsNation peeps... You can also drive down to Grand Forks and jump on a direct charter flight for only $150.00 return.
The prices arnt up for April but here is a link for a average price.
https://www2.allegiantair.com/aares#...9cc5226b07b3a3
Quote:
Originally Posted by sipowicz View Post
Yeah it's cheaper to pay for a flight and ticket to a Coyotes game than the price of admission alone to a Jets game in Winnipeg (if you can even find a ticket)
I recall that discussion here two years ago when the Jets played their first game at Glendale. Special charters...... Jets fans were going to come down and take over jobing.com..... etc. Reality was..... despite a good turnout, it didn't end up "packed" with Jets fans.

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07-27-2013, 12:45 AM
  #244
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It does not make other teams more profitable. No team is required to spend to the cap so the cap amount is irrelevant. The players get x amount of the revenues regardless of where it comes from so if the league has 1 billion in HRR then the players get 500 mil. period. end of story.

The revenue sharing, by giving it to the Yotes instead of other teams means that the league as a whole is supporting the franchise financially. Do a team like say Dallas who should get say 3 mil in revenue sharing will get nothing. So now Dallas, if they lost 3 mil that year would require a cash call or finaniccng instead of breaking even.

So how does the Yotes losing a boatload of money benefit the league? IF there was an additional 30 mil in revenue by moving the team to quebec sure the players would get 50% but who do you think gets the other half? That's right, the owners. So instead of forking money over to support a franchise they would have more money in their pockets due to the increased revenues.

Losing money is NEVER a good thing. And do not give me the crap about tax break because someone is still footing the bill. Guess who that is - everyone who paid taxes.
Great explanation,hopefully others will understand it.

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07-27-2013, 01:08 AM
  #245
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Special charters......
Westjet. Sponsoring the parking lots. Acres of digital signage. Attendants dressed up like Runway Directors in parachute suits with oversized headphones & duck billed Coyote Caps. Special same day return charters from YVR, SEA, YWG, YQT, ORD & DTW.... problem?

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07-27-2013, 01:22 AM
  #246
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You know this how? Why isnt possible, plausible, the NHL pulling the old Puppy Dog Sale. Huh? Answer me that Batman?
Well my dear Robin.

Gosbee has made his fortune in the world of high finance and investment. A keen eye for opportunity with big payoffs of high value in short term. Even starting his own investment company was a venture in a maximized exit strategy.

His track record is what sets my compass.

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07-27-2013, 01:32 AM
  #247
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His track record is what sets my compass.
You could well be correct Boy Wonder. Though with his connections in Houston & at least 2 of the minority investors involved in RSE with serious interests in that city & Les Alexander perhaps loosening his grip on the Toyota Centre & the Rockets ... its diabolical, but not outside of the realm of possibilities....

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07-27-2013, 01:44 AM
  #248
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You could well be correct Boy Wonder. Though with his connections in Houston & at least 2 of the minority investors involved in RSE with serious interests in that city & Les Alexander perhaps loosening his grip on the Toyota Centre & the Rockets ... its diabolical, but not outside of the realm of possibilities....
Time will tell... Lordy knows I've been wrong before. The terms of the lease and Gosbee's M.O. has me looking at relocation sale. He isn't the type to invest for the fun of it.

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07-27-2013, 02:07 AM
  #249
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Time will tell... Lordy knows I've been wrong before. The terms of the lease and Gosbee's M.O. has me looking at relocation sale. He isn't the type to invest for the fun of it.
Did anyone ever say "ICE Edge is going to land a big money investor and get Global Spectrum to partner with them and Glendale will agree to spend $15 million a year" raise your hand.

Oh look, no hands have been raised.

In a nutshell we have all been wrong at various points in time.

So when people say it will close on X date. Yeah I'll believe it when it actually closes.

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07-27-2013, 03:27 AM
  #250
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Westjet. Sponsoring the parking lots. Acres of digital signage. Attendants dressed up like Runway Directors in parachute suits with oversized headphones & duck billed Coyote Caps. Special same day return charters from YVR, SEA, YWG, YQT, ORD & DTW.... problem?
Not for me.....

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