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Who is the ideal linemate for Datsyuk and Zetterberg?

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Old
07-21-2013, 01:04 PM
  #126
Yzerman1919*
 
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I mean its an 82 game season now so plenty of time to try a few combos.

Z-Pav-Alfie
Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist
Tatar-Andersson-Abby
Miller-Helm-Eaves/Tootoo

Z-Pav-Abby
Franzen-Weiss-Alfie
Tatar-Andersson-Nyquist
Abby-Helm-Eaves/Tootoo

^^I think these will be the first combos we see within the first 8 games or so honestly.

Splitting up 3 lines would be really tough, and I don't like it at all.

Franzen-Pav-Tatar
Nyquist-Z-Alfie
Abby-Weiss-Andersson??
Miller-Helm-Eaves/Tootoo

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07-21-2013, 01:07 PM
  #127
Winger98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Cleary, Abby, Bert, Homer, Sammy... all did this type of work. Their effectiveness otherwise (namely in contributing directly to offense) was all over the place.

I know Homer was effective, but his game relied on some other inputs that someone like Hull didn't need. We're talking about the 'ideal' line-mate for Z-D in each of our opinions. I'm positing that Homer needed some ideal type of defensemen too.

Homer was hated by the opposition, and for a good reason, but I still you think need more than just Z-D to get the most of out that approach with Homer's net-front presence.
Which doesn't have a lot to do with your question that I responded to. You asked what else Holmstrom did than tri-pod himself in front of the goalie and tip pucks, trying to sell him a bit short to primp and argument in favor of 741 goal scoring and HoFer Brett Hull.

edit: and if you want to count up the dollars, what was the team salary for those years Hull was here? $80m? $85m?

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07-21-2013, 01:13 PM
  #128
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Hull was okay, I guess.

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07-21-2013, 01:24 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Which doesn't have a lot to do with your question that I responded to. You asked what else Holmstrom did than tri-pod himself in front of the goalie and tip pucks, trying to sell him a bit short to primp and argument in favor of 741 goal scoring and HoFer Brett Hull.

edit: and if you want to count up the dollars, what was the team salary for those years Hull was here? $80m? $85m?

The other things Homer did weren't things that set him apart in any way, and in fact, his speed and skating were so bad that he couldn't really contribute much in the neutral or defensive zones, plus the play had to be slowed down so he could catch up and position himself.


The Z-D-Hull unit was rather self-sufficient. Brett was never one to impress anyone with his speed either, and he kind of dogged it getting back on D, but he scored from several spots on the ice and it was obvious you couldn't leave him open in the offensive zone. Take the money you're not spending on Lidstrom and Rafalski post-Hull days and spend it on a sniper.

(as opposed to the plethora of mediocre contracts with NTCs...)

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07-21-2013, 01:25 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Hull was okay, I guess.

Kinda, yeah.


Honestly, I just think they need a player who thinks like that, good at finding openings, fast release. Datsyuk is happier digging the pucks out and finding the open guy than he is being the primary shooter.

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07-21-2013, 01:30 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Take the money you're not spending on Lidstrom and Rafalski post-Hull days and spend it on a sniper.
You're instigating another Semin debate aren't you? I'm onto you.

This season is a mess with the contacts, but things look up next year. Hard to imagine the Wings don't look to make a swing at Gaborik or particularly Vanek if those guys make it to UFA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu
Honestly, I just think they need a player who thinks like that, good at finding openings, fast release. Datsyuk is happier digging the pucks out and finding the open guy than he is being the primary shooter.
No particular disagreement from me. I think Zetterberg fills that need to a degree, he loves to shoot. Isn't he always near the top in shot totals? Alfredsson and Weiss don't shy away either, when it comes to the powerplay.

Maybe Tatar can get some traction going?

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07-21-2013, 01:31 PM
  #132
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Not a chance it hell it would ever happen, but if DET could somehow talk him into taking Dan Cleary money, Id love to see Teemu Selanne on Pavel's wing

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07-21-2013, 01:34 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Hard to imagine the Wings don't look to make a swing at Gaborik or particularly Vanek if those guys make it to UFA.
Doubt it.

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07-21-2013, 01:37 PM
  #134
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Vanek I could stomach but if DET signs Gaborik, I'll burn ever bit of Wings apparel in my possession.

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07-21-2013, 01:38 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Doubt it.
Didn't Vanek say he has no interest in a rebuild? They'll try to trade him first, of course.

After that, though, like Iginla I wouldn't be surprised if he tests the market.

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07-21-2013, 01:41 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzerman1919 View Post
I mean its an 82 game season now so plenty of time to try a few combos.

Z-Pav-Alfie
Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist
Tatar-Andersson-Abby
Miller-Helm-Eaves/Tootoo
These lines make me barf.

If D/Z together

Zetterberg Datsyuk Bertuzzi
Franzen Weiss Alfredsson
Nyquist Andersson Tatar
Abdelkader Helm whoever

Quite honestly, I think Abby is the kind of player who should be among those fighting for his fourth line time. But I think given our current crew, he'd win such a fight.

I don't believe Datsyuk and Zetterberg will play together very long and I wouldn't mind spreading out the centers

Bertuzzi Datsyuk Tatar
Franzen Zetterberg Alfredsson
Nyquist Weiss Andersson
Abdelkader Helm whoever

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07-21-2013, 01:41 PM
  #137
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I can't see Vanek staying in Buffalo. I would love to see him on the Wings. He is streaky, but i think that problem would happen less playing in Detroit.

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07-21-2013, 01:50 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bench View Post
Didn't Vanek say he has no interest in a rebuild? They'll try to trade him first, of course.

After that, though, like Iginla I wouldn't be surprised if he tests the market.
Exactly. They'll trade him. And since he ain't old, whoever trades for him will pay big bucks and have a plan to sign him long term.

Maybe Gaborik makes it.. But Gaborik is aging too.

I don't see any room to sign a forward. Even if we find a way to make room for Tatar and Nyquist this year -- we've got Jurco, Sheahan, Jarnkrok and Ferraro who should be ready next season--if they aren't ready before then.

We shouldn't have resigned Miller for three years.
Next year we;ll have
Datsyuk Zetterberg Weiss, Franzen Helm
Tootoo, Abdelkader, Miller, Tatar, Nyquist
Andersson

That's 11 forwards assuming Alfredsson, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi, Eaves and Emmerton are gone.

Even if you toss Tootoo on the fire...

That gives you room for two of Jurco, Sheahan, Jarnkrok and Ferraro.

I don't see us going big for Vanek or Gaborik.

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07-21-2013, 01:54 PM
  #139
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Do you really think all those prospects are going to pan out, or do you just want to make sure there is room to get a look at them?

Holland really has way too many bottom six forwards signed for too many years. Do we really need players like Drew Miller locked up for three years? It's not like his value is going to skyrocket between contracts. I like Miller, but it just seems so unnecessary.


Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 07-21-2013 at 01:59 PM.
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Old
07-21-2013, 02:00 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
We shouldn't have resigned Miller for three years.
disagree. one of the more sensible signings DET had made over the last few years

Quote:
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I don't see us going big for Vanek or Gaborik.
DET will pursue 1 top 6 forward imo

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07-21-2013, 02:12 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
If you consider all the forwards that Z-D played with over the years, I think the best combination is one no one has mentioned yet: Two kids and a goat.

Brett Hull. Pure sniper.

And unlike Homer, Brett didn't park in front of the net but no one ever had to tell him to shoot the puck either. Homer's game required the Lidstrom-Rafalski combination firing pucks from the point. I used to laugh that we had 4 players worth $6-7 MM each setting up the mediocre talent for goals. What a system.


Alfredsson would be my choice because he will shoot. And unlike Abby, he's probably fairly effective at it.

Agree with the consensus that Abby on the top line is some cosmic joke.
I agree with these sentiments.

It seems like we are the only team that consistently trots out a top line or two that contains basically a non top 6 player. Watching Homer near the end of his career, Bert, Cleary, and now Abby go out there and bumble beautiful set ups, miss open nets, and generally kill plays is maddening. How many other teams handicap their top lines like that?

I wish we could try a guy who is known for making plays or who has a good shot with them instead of the big body, go to the front of the net type player.

I remember Nyquist randomly playing with them one shift and it looked damn good. I want more of that.

Nyquist, Alfredsson, or Tatar would get my vote.

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07-21-2013, 02:28 PM
  #142
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It seems like we are the only team that consistently trots out a top line or two that contains basically a non top 6 player.
Penguins and Canucks have also done the same for years. Their fans complain about it, too, for what it's worth.

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07-21-2013, 02:42 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Take the money you're not spending on Lidstrom and Rafalski post-Hull days and spend it on a sniper.

(as opposed to the plethora of mediocre contracts with NTCs...)
You know who our GM is right?

I'm really high on Tatar and would love to see him get a shot. He shoots, he's aggressive, good slick hands, great hockey sense, he's not someone I'd call slow either, even if his speed used to be a knock on his game. He can certainly play tough as he's shown in the AHL. He's not even afraid to drop the gloves. And he is so full of passion and enthusiasm.

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07-21-2013, 02:42 PM
  #144
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Since we're dreaming here, I'd say Kovalchuk or Stamkos. Both are large, right-handed shot snipers and overall world-class players. I understand the need for balance to make a line successful, but I just think a combination of 3 players that dynamic over-rules the need for balance...they'd be unstoppable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Kinda, yeah.


Honestly, I just think they need a player who thinks like that, good at finding openings, fast release. Datsyuk is happier digging the pucks out and finding the open guy than he is being the primary shooter.
That's why I wanted the Wings to sign Iginla. I know he's not the same player he was, but his decline is exaggerated. He's a right-handed shot and he's good at finding those openings.

I'll happily settle for Alfie though, but the Wings couldn't go wrong with Alfie or Iginla because the 1 year deals they were willing to take are perfect for us given our prospects that are coming up soon.

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07-21-2013, 02:43 PM
  #145
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I'm still waiting for someone -- anyone -- to provide the list of top six players worse than Abdelkader

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07-21-2013, 02:43 PM
  #146
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You know who our GM is right?
And we spent the majority of that money on Howard. We've been extremely fortunate to spend under 5m on both goalies, now we're spending over 5m on one goalie.

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07-21-2013, 02:47 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
I'm still waiting for someone -- anyone -- to provide the list of top six players worse than Abdelkader
I think this worry is a lot to do about nothing. I'd be shocked beyond belief if Abdelkader played in the top 6 all season and playoffs if he isn't producing. I'd be shocked if one of Samuelsson or Bertuzzi don't play there for a good chunk of the time if they're healthy/on the team.

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07-21-2013, 02:54 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
I'm still waiting for someone -- anyone -- to provide the list of top six players worse than Abdelkader
Put a thread of discussing it in general but doubt there are any players as bad offensively.

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07-21-2013, 02:55 PM
  #149
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I think this worry is a lot to do about nothing. I'd be shocked beyond belief if Abdelkader played in the top 6 all season and playoffs if he isn't producing. I'd be shocked if one of Samuelsson or Bertuzzi don't play there for a good chunk of the time if they're healthy/on the team.
I really hope you are right, but we all know how stubborn Babcock can be. He is an elite coach, but nobody is perfect.

I can't believe i want Sammy or Bert playing. I am definitely taking crazy pills.

OT - I keep on clicking on the Dallas Stars forum when i try to go to the Red Wings forum.


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07-21-2013, 03:23 PM
  #150
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But let's not forget that Bert hasn't scored more than 45 points on our team, largely playing with Datsyuk. I think we have just grown accustomed to that third player not scoring more than a point every other game. Bertuzzi isn't a good answer. He is slightly better offensively than Abby, in the sense that he screws up so many plays as well, but also has the random pretty goal or assist.

All of these guys look good on paper with their 20 goals and 20 assists averages, but I feel a winger who is gifted so many chances from Z/D should be able to get more done.

What player wouldn't put up those stats?

Hudler had his chance with Datsyuk for about 10 games one of his last years, and he was over 1PPG during that stretch.

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