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Who is the ideal linemate for Datsyuk and Zetterberg?

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Old
07-21-2013, 03:30 PM
  #151
Chance on Chance
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
You know who our GM is right?

I'm really high on Tatar and would love to see him get a shot. He shoots, he's aggressive, good slick hands, great hockey sense, he's not someone I'd call slow either, even if his speed used to be a knock on his game. He can certainly play tough as he's shown in the AHL. He's not even afraid to drop the gloves. And he is so full of passion and enthusiasm.
I really think we should give our young guys chance and throw them into the fire. Other teams have done it with success so I don't see why we can't

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07-21-2013, 03:34 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Chance on Chance View Post
I really think we should give our young guys chance and throw them into the fire. Other teams have done it with success so I don't see why we can't
He was only one of the best scorers in the AHL and the playoff's MVP. How good could be possibly be?

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07-21-2013, 05:07 PM
  #153
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But let's not forget that Bert hasn't scored more than 45 points on our team, largely playing with Datsyuk. I think we have just grown accustomed to that third player not scoring more than a point every other game. Bertuzzi isn't a good answer. He is slightly better offensively than Abby, in the sense that he screws up so many plays as well, but also has the random pretty goal or assist.

All of these guys look good on paper with their 20 goals and 20 assists averages, but I feel a winger who is gifted so many chances from Z/D should be able to get more done.

What player wouldn't put up those stats?

Hudler had his chance with Datsyuk for about 10 games one of his last years, and he was over 1PPG during that stretch.

Bertuzzi's production has been very good for someone who, at best, got 2nd line PP minutes.
I think 11-12 was the year he played most with Datsyuk - but then Datsyuk got hurt at the end of the season
His even strength numbers were 11 goals and 34 points in 983 minutes --
And this was despite playing the first month with almost no production on a line with Helm and Cleary.

Let's prorate those even strength numbers against Daniel Alfredsson's numbers from last year.

7 and 14 points 694 minutes

Bertuzzi vs Alfie at ES
Bertuzzi 14 goals - Alfredsson 10 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points - Alfredsson 20 points

Lets try that with Iginla
8 goals 21 points 668 minutes

Bertuzzi vs Iginla
Bertuzzi 14 goals Iginla 12 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points Iginla 31 points

Here's Bertuzzi vs Sammy's last year in Florida (7G 17 Points 653 minutes)
Bertuzzi 14 goals Sammy 10 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points Sammy 26 points

Here's Bertuzzi vs Abdelkader (10 goals 13 655 minutes)
Bertuzzi 14 goals Abdelkader 15 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points Abdelkader 22 points

I don't even want Bertuzzi on the team anymore and I wish we never signed him. But he's getting knocked unnecessarily hard

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07-21-2013, 05:28 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Bertuzzi's production has been very good for someone who, at best, got 2nd line PP minutes.
I think 11-12 was the year he played most with Datsyuk - but then Datsyuk got hurt at the end of the season
His even strength numbers were 11 goals and 34 points in 983 minutes --
And this was despite playing the first month with almost no production on a line with Helm and Cleary.

Let's prorate those even strength numbers against Daniel Alfredsson's numbers from last year.

7 and 14 points 694 minutes

Bertuzzi vs Alfie at ES
Bertuzzi 14 goals - Alfredsson 10 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points - Alfredsson 20 points

Lets try that with Iginla
8 goals 21 points 668 minutes

Bertuzzi vs Iginla
Bertuzzi 14 goals Iginla 12 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points Iginla 31 points

Here's Bertuzzi vs Sammy's last year in Florida (7G 17 Points 653 minutes)
Bertuzzi 14 goals Sammy 10 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points Sammy 26 points

Here's Bertuzzi vs Abdelkader (10 goals 13 655 minutes)
Bertuzzi 14 goals Abdelkader 15 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points Abdelkader 22 points

I don't even want Bertuzzi on the team anymore and I wish we never signed him. But he's getting knocked unnecessarily hard
I'd like to see a Bertuzzi/Franzen comparison. I really think Franzen belongs on the third line... thats when he dominates.

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07-21-2013, 05:55 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by ComradeChris View Post
I'd like to see a Bertuzzi/Franzen comparison. I really think Franzen belongs on the third line... thats when he dominates.
Franzen last year had 581 ES minutes, 8 goals and 19 points --
Prorating that for 983 minutes ---
Bertuzzi 14 goals vs Franzen 13 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points vs Franzen 32 points

Bertuzzi has a slight edge


Let's go Bertuzzi vs Datsyuk and Zetterberg
Zetterberg 5ESG and 23 ESP 705 minutes
Datsyuk 7ESG and 30 ESP 713 minutes

Prorated for 983
Bertuzzi 14 goals vs Zetterberg 7 goals vs Datsyuk 10 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points vs Zetterberg 32 points vs Datsyuk 41 points

So Bertuzzi is a better goal scorer at ES, and nearly twice as productive as Zetterberg.
Bertuzzi is ahead of Zetterberg in production but behind Datsyuk by a good degree.

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07-21-2013, 06:06 PM
  #156
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So --- here's the comparison for 983 ES Minutes
Datsyuk 10 goals 41 points
Bertuzzi 10G 34 Points
Zetterberg 7 goals 32 points
Iginla 12 goals 31 points
Samuelsson 10 goals 26 points
Abdelkader 15 goals 22 points
Alfredsson 10 goals 20 points


And just for fun I included Weiss and Flip's 2011-12 stats, prorated to 983 minutes
Weiss 11 goals 29 points
Filppula 15 goals 44 points

And here are Flip vs Weiss on the Bertuzzi standard, 2010-11
Filppula 16 goals 30 points
Weiss 14 goals 24 points

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07-21-2013, 06:23 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Franzen last year had 581 ES minutes, 8 goals and 19 points --
Prorating that for 983 minutes ---
Bertuzzi 14 goals vs Franzen 13 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points vs Franzen 32 points

Bertuzzi has a slight edge


Let's go Bertuzzi vs Datsyuk and Zetterberg
Zetterberg 5ESG and 23 ESP 705 minutes
Datsyuk 7ESG and 30 ESP 713 minutes

Prorated for 983
Bertuzzi 14 goals vs Zetterberg 7 goals vs Datsyuk 10 goals
Bertuzzi 34 points vs Zetterberg 32 points vs Datsyuk 41 points

So Bertuzzi is a better goal scorer at ES, and nearly twice as productive as Zetterberg.
Bertuzzi is ahead of Zetterberg in production but behind Datsyuk by a good degree.
I'm obviously missing something, but can you explain this a little further, what are these numbers exactly and how is Bertuzzi twice as productive as Z at anything besides maybe shootout goals?

I looked through the years and can't find any year since the lockout that Bertuzzi outproduced Z anywhere.

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07-21-2013, 06:32 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I'm obviously missing something, but can you explain this a little further, what are these numbers exactly and how is Bertuzzi twice as productive as Z at anything besides maybe shootout goals?

I looked through the years and can't find any year since the lockout that Bertuzzi outproduced Z anywhere.
These are even-strength numbers.

Bertuzzis 983 minutes in 11-12 are the standard (his last healthy year).
So then I compared last year's ES production and pro-rated it for 983 minutes.

Bertuzzi has been a very solid ES producer in Detroit.

Zetterberg's 2011-12 numbers would probably blow Bert's 983 production out of the water though.

Bertuzzi and Filppula have been very good ES producers in Detroit. People say i act like PP doesn't matter -- but whatever. Playing 3:20 a night is different than skating the last 35 seconds of the PP 4 times a night... especially when the first 10 seconds are typically spent trying to skate the puck up ice.

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07-21-2013, 06:37 PM
  #159
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That's pretty much what depth is, producing at ES. Bertuzzi does a good job at ES, but his value is limited due to his injuries and issues taking penalties at the wrong times.

Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary, Abdelkader etc... are all in the same boat, they're going to be the same player as the others at their very best. We have enough cheap guys to do that sort of thing. Bertuzzi's main drawback is his inability to score during playoff time, the last time he had any points was 3 seasons ago and the majority of those points game in Franzen's 4 goal game.

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07-21-2013, 07:09 PM
  #160
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Ovechkin with honorable mention to Lucic, Chris Stewart, Niedereitter, Iginla and Dustin Brown
Franzen with honourable mention to Tatar (Babcock likes a big body on the top lines and depending on how well Sammy and Bert can do, he is probably the best option after Franzen, despite not having a big body), Alfredsson, Sammy, and Bert when he is willing to do the dirty work (he goes for stretches (probably because of his back) when he does not).

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07-21-2013, 08:01 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
That's pretty much what depth is, producing at ES. Bertuzzi does a good job at ES, but his value is limited due to his injuries and issues taking penalties at the wrong times.

Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary, Abdelkader etc... are all in the same boat, they're going to be the same player as the others at their very best. We have enough cheap guys to do that sort of thing. Bertuzzi's main drawback is his inability to score during playoff time, the last time he had any points was 3 seasons ago and the majority of those points game in Franzen's 4 goal game.
I wouldn't read much into last year's playoff stats.

And I don't know what the deal was in 2011-12 ..
But his stats the previous years are decent enough.

I have two issues with Bertuzzi - 1) He's old and injury prone 2) Should have not been given the 2-year extension.

That said, he's a lot better than Sammy, Cleary and especially Abdelkader.
Or he was the last time he played

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07-21-2013, 08:05 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
I wouldn't read much into last year's playoff stats.

And I don't know what the deal was in 2011-12 ..
But his stats the previous years are decent enough.

I have two issues with Bertuzzi - 1) He's old and injury prone 2) Should have not been given the 2-year extension.

That said, he's a lot better than Sammy, Cleary and especially Abdelkader.
Or he was the last time he played
And that's the key. I see a lot of the support for Bertuzzi is when he could actually play. The problem is, I don't think he's capable of contributing for a full season and if he can't do that, and isn't capable of playing a full playoffs, I don't see any real reason to support him.

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07-21-2013, 08:07 PM
  #163
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Maybe. Maybe not.
Prior to last year he'd missed 12 games in 3 years

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07-21-2013, 09:09 PM
  #164
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Maybe. Maybe not.
Prior to last year he'd missed 12 games in 3 years
Now he's 38 with a bad back and concussion problems. I think he's done.

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07-21-2013, 09:19 PM
  #165
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OT - I keep on clicking on the Dallas Stars forum when i try to go to the Red Wings forum.
Did the Stars Girls get new uniforms yet? Don't leave me hanging.

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07-21-2013, 09:29 PM
  #166
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What's lost in this debate is the reality that Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't 29 and 27, squarely in their primes and two of the absolutely elite players in the game. If you put a '07-'08 Homer with a 35 year old Pav and 33 year old Hank it wouldn't work. That line was so magical because Panv and Hank could do the leg work to compensate for Homer's poor skating. IMO both players have lost the steps in their skating to count on them having the athe ability to carry an Abs or similar slug on a top line. Holland should have tried to get an impact player to play with either one or both. Asking two players past their prime to carry a 4th line winger is setting your team up for failure.

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07-21-2013, 10:42 PM
  #167
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What's lost in this debate is the reality that Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't 29 and 27, squarely in their primes and two of the absolutely elite players in the game. If you put a '07-'08 Homer with a 35 year old Pav and 33 year old Hank it wouldn't work. That line was so magical because Panv and Hank could do the leg work to compensate for Homer's poor skating. IMO both players have lost the steps in their skating to count on them having the athe ability to carry an Abs or similar slug on a top line. Holland should have tried to get an impact player to play with either one or both. Asking two players past their prime to carry a 4th line winger is setting your team up for failure.
Don't look now but Datsyuk is nearly old enough to be the "goat" on a two kids and a goat line.

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07-21-2013, 10:52 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Don't look now but Datsyuk is nearly old enough to be the "goat" on a two kids and a goat line.
That's a bit depressing. On a personal level too because I remember his first year in the NHL. Years are flying by.

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07-21-2013, 11:25 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Don't look now but Datsyuk is nearly old enough to be the "goat" on a two kids and a goat line.
I feel old

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07-21-2013, 11:27 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by RedWingsNow View Post
Don't look now but Datsyuk is nearly old enough to be the "goat" on a two kids and a goat line.

Nyquist-Datsyuk-Tatar...

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07-21-2013, 11:37 PM
  #171
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Nyquist-Datsyuk-Tatar...
God yes.

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07-21-2013, 11:51 PM
  #172
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God yes.
Lol Babcock doesn't have the balls to pull a move like that. My goodness wouldn't we all love to get a chance to see that though?!

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07-22-2013, 12:00 AM
  #173
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Our current roster is in no way shape or form comparable to the 2002 DRW. Their is no way they would get to play on his line until he starts "to age" ie regress and maybe at the same time they would both happen to be on the same line for a bit (ie the second).

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07-22-2013, 11:18 AM
  #174
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Our current roster is in no way shape or form comparable to the 2002 DRW. Their is no way they would get to play on his line until he starts "to age" ie regress and maybe at the same time they would both happen to be on the same line for a bit (ie the second).
It would be a much better line than Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Abdelkader. The only reason it won't happen is that Babcock insists in having a bigger body on the top 2 lines regardless of washed up or unskilled they are

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07-22-2013, 05:10 PM
  #175
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It would be interesting to start like this:
Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Tatar
Alfreddson - Weiss - Franzen
Nyquist - Helm - Abdelkader

But Realistically;
Datsyuk - Zetterberg- Abdelkader
Alfredsson - Weiss - Cleary
Nyquist - Helm - Franzen

...Which could actually give us three lines with decent scoring punch and some balance. A lot of options for this lineup, Babs must be licking his chops.

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