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Gunnarsson vs. Franson- If you could only keep 1

View Poll Results: If you could only keep 1, who would you keep?
Gunnarsson 55 25.11%
Franson 164 74.89%
Voters: 219. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-21-2013, 09:09 PM
  #76
diceman934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Leafs tried without success to do that this year rather than have Gunnarsson play injured.

Granberg was in Europe unfortunately.
They tried by using AHL players and not by using NHL players ....Carlyle also want to play Dion on the other side as well.

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Old
07-21-2013, 09:27 PM
  #77
frankthetank91
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Like them equally voted Franson because he plays the right side and his beautiful accurate shot. It would be hard losing either of them though.

Gardiner-Phaneuf
Liles-Franson
Fraser-Brennan/Holzer

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Old
07-21-2013, 09:40 PM
  #78
FishManSam
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They would be an awesome pairing... We should try that...

Gardiner - Phaneuf
Gunnar - Franson
Fraser - Brennan
Holzer

I'd like to see how Gards and Phaneuf play for a long period of time unless there are extremely poor results.

Liles moved

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Old
07-21-2013, 09:41 PM
  #79
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why do we always pit leafs against each other?

we keep them both.

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07-21-2013, 09:45 PM
  #80
Duffman955
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Never mind who can replace whom. You can't teach being 6'5" and being a great skater. Franson without doubt is who you keep, he has a higher ceiling.
Franson is the worst skater on the team outside of Fraser. He was our worst defenseman in our own zone and single handedly lead to 3 of Boston's 5 goals in the collapse.

Franson is a big offensive zone specialist. Not that he is a bad player, but there was a reason he was never given top 4 minutes on any team he has played on.

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Old
07-21-2013, 09:56 PM
  #81
Phion Keneuf
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Franson easy.

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Old
07-21-2013, 09:59 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Duffman955 View Post
Franson is the worst skater on the team outside of Fraser. He was our worst defenseman in our own zone and single handedly lead to 3 of Boston's 5 goals in the collapse.

Franson is a big offensive zone specialist. Not that he is a bad player, but there was a reason he was never given top 4 minutes on any team he has played on.
Please. He didn't single handedly lose **** cause anything. And he definitely isn't our worst Dman in our zone.

Really no idea what you are talking about. He also scored 2 goals that game.

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Old
07-21-2013, 10:16 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by AuraSphere View Post
Can I add that Franson is the only Right handed defenseman we have right now
It is GM's fault that we are in such a fix then. We would've had Komisarek too as RHD if not for buyout.

I'd take Gunnar's defense ahead of Franson's offence. Franson is in the NHL for his offence, and on a team with Phaneuf, Gardiner and Rielly; I don't see him no better than 4th best offensive defenseman in a years time.

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07-21-2013, 10:20 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
Franson is just going to get better, offensively and defensively. He's also developed a physical aspect to his game.

Gunnarsson is what he is. A reliable defenseman who can chip in offensively at times, but I don't think there's much room to grow.
Both are a year apart (and at their current age, they are certainly not hockey prospects, but pro players). Yet, you conveniently expect one to have a steady career graph, while other continues to just get better?

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07-21-2013, 10:24 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Penalty Kill Icing View Post
Both are a year apart (and at their current age, they are certainly not hockey prospects, but pro players). Yet, you conveniently expect one to have a steady career graph, while other continues to just get better?
Yes, Franson has elite size which he is not using (room to grow) and he is good offensively (only needs to work on the defensive zone, which is easier to learn) therefore Franson has more upside then Gunnarsson who 1) can't learn how to grow big unless they somehow manage to perfect genetic engineering and 2) he needs to learn how to score, which is probably the hardest skill to learn on the fly. Because of that, he has less upside and age doesn't matter.

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Old
07-21-2013, 10:41 PM
  #86
Duke Silver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penalty Kill Icing View Post
Both are a year apart (and at their current age, they are certainly not hockey prospects, but pro players). Yet, you conveniently expect one to have a steady career graph, while other continues to just get better?
Players peak at different times and have different levels of upside.

From the looks of it Gunnarsson has gotten as good as he can get. He looks like he's going to max out at about a 30-point-getting, reliable defensive defenseman. He's basically been the same D-man for the last 3 seasons aside from this year's increase in offensive productivity (though it has been questioned how much he drove those plays that ended in goals).

Franson has put up very good offensive numbers in every league he's been in and came into Toronto looking like a PP specialist who couldn't be trusted with tough minutes. But he's shown glimpses of becoming a more complete player in the defensive zone. He's got the size and mobility to become a handful to play against in our own end. He's hitting more, pinning more, battling more in front of the net and chasing less.

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Old
07-21-2013, 10:55 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penalty Kill Icing View Post
Both are a year apart (and at their current age, they are certainly not hockey prospects, but pro players). Yet, you conveniently expect one to have a steady career graph, while other continues to just get better?
No need to respond, last two posters summed it up nicely.

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Old
07-21-2013, 11:15 PM
  #88
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Gunnarsson is better defensively, Franson offensively. The Leafs have no trouble scoring goals, but have quite some trouble in their own end.

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07-21-2013, 11:28 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinto View Post
Franson.

Don't really understand the argument of replacing Franson's offense with Gardiner/Reilly in a couple of years when you could say the same thing with Gunnarsson and Percy/Finn/Granberg/Holzer
I don't get it either. Retaining both would be ideal, but if we keep Franson, it's going to enable us to move him for long-term pieces (if required) as he becomes more well rounded. On the other hand, Gunnarsson has been carried by Phaneuf who is being severely under appreciated for that reason.

Furthermore, the quality of competition argument is misplaced. Gunnarsson spent most of his time off the first pairing in the regular season. During the playoffs, Franson spent more time against possession monsters than Gunnarsson, and he was largely used on the defensive side. His upside is high and letting him walk would join the list of boneheaded moves that were made in the past.

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Old
07-21-2013, 11:31 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Franson easy.
true.

gunner has done well, and i hope we sign him... but franson is a very good player.

franson was 8th in points for defensemen, 4th in assists for defensemen... he played 3rd pairing minutes with fraser as a partner for a lot of the season.

i don't think people give enough credit to franson. he's miles better than gunner. gunner is still very solid, but franson played extrememly well last season. if franson does anything close to what he did this last season, we'll be in good shape.

phaneuf was 10th in points too.

with franson, phanuef and gardiner all playing in the top 4 (with gunner and maybe rielly too), i think we've got a very good defense.

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Old
07-21-2013, 11:34 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
Never mind who can replace whom. You can't teach being 6'5" and being a great skater. Franson without doubt is who you keep, he has a higher ceiling.
He's a great puck mover as well. When you see Pronger-esque qualities, I think it's a good idea to retain the guy. Of course, he will have to get more meaner and physical, but the

Gunnarsson is extremely overrated on the defensive side. We have posters claiming that he is a better puck mover than Phaneuf and on the defensive side as well. I wonder why actual coaches would call their top guys back to the bench when Phaneuf was on the ice instead of Gunns. Then again, it's no surprise considering a number feel that EA sports experience trumps actual results.

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Old
07-21-2013, 11:50 PM
  #92
PuckMagi
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Yes, but he did that against superior competition, not sheltered minutes on the 3rd. pairing.
i don't like this arguement.

people say that kadri did so well because of the same arguement.

franson played third line mintues with fraser for most of the seaosn. wouldn't he have got more points if he played 1st pairing minutes with phaneuf?

same with kadri... did he get all his points because he was "sheltered" on the third line... or would he have gotten more points by playing more minutes on the first line with kessel?

people like to make the arguement both ways. either some guy (like bozak) gets lots of points because he's on the 1st line playing with superstars. or they get lots of points (kadri and franson) because they play "sheltered" minutes.

ultimately, i think your stats are going to be better playing more minutes with better players. therefore, if your numbers are still very good (like franson and kadri) while playing "sheltered" minutes... that should be a positive rather than a negative.

if we roll with lupul-kadri-kessel next year.. it's scary to think how many points that line would get. definately top 5 in the league.

and i think franson, phaneuf and gardiner are going to get a lot of points for defensemen. all 3 could be in the top 20 for points by defensemen. (this would happen because phaneuf-franson would be the first PP unit, and they'd produce like they did this last season... and gardiner would still end up getting a ton of points because he's so damn good without having to play on the first PP unit)

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Old
07-22-2013, 12:00 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by PuckMagi View Post
i don't like this arguement.

people say that kadri did so well because of the same arguement.

franson played third line mintues with fraser for most of the seaosn. wouldn't he have got more points if he played 1st pairing minutes with phaneuf?

same with kadri... did he get all his points because he was "sheltered" on the third line... or would he have gotten more points by playing more minutes on the first line with kessel?

people like to make the arguement both ways. either some guy (like bozak) gets lots of points because he's on the 1st line playing with superstars. or they get lots of points (kadri and franson) because they play "sheltered" minutes.

ultimately, i think your stats are going to be better playing more minutes with better players. therefore, if your numbers are still very good (like franson and kadri) while playing "sheltered" minutes... that should be a positive rather than a negative.

if we roll with lupul-kadri-kessel next year.. it's scary to think how many points that line would get. definately top 5 in the league.

and i think franson, phaneuf and gardiner are going to get a lot of points for defensemen. all 3 could be in the top 20 for points by defensemen. (this would happen because phaneuf-franson would be the first PP unit, and they'd produce like they did this last season... and gardiner would still end up getting a ton of points because he's so damn good without having to play on the first PP unit)
Wasn't the JvR - Bozak - Kessel line top 5 in points this past season? And weren't Kessel - Lupul the best duo the season before that? It's folly to mess up the built up chemistry between Bozak, Kessel and either of Lupul or JvR, in order to aspire to the same kind of results that they're already producing.

Kadri was absolutely helped by being in a 2nd/3rd line role behind Kessel and at times Grabovsky. Most teams only have 1 top shut down type of defenseman, and if that guy is busy trying to negate Kessel, he's not going to be doing anything about Kadri. Thus, Kadri has more space and time to do what he does best.

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Old
07-22-2013, 12:04 AM
  #94
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These last playoffs Franson really added something to his defensive game.

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07-22-2013, 12:08 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duffman955 View Post
Franson is the worst skater on the team outside of Fraser. He was our worst defenseman in our own zone and single handedly lead to 3 of Boston's 5 goals in the collapse.

Franson is a big offensive zone specialist. Not that he is a bad player, but there was a reason he was never given top 4 minutes on any team he has played on.
Rofl, 'single handedly'.

You do realize that Franson was 4th in both ES and PK time for the Leafs against Boston right? On top of that he led the entire team in points.

If you think he was the worst in the d-zone I don't know what the hell you were watching. He was the best possession d-man on the team and had the highest relative CORSI, even higher than Gardiner.

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Old
07-22-2013, 12:32 AM
  #96
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I watched the Leafs vs Bruins full-game review earlier and Franson did have like 2 brutal giveaways, theres no denying that, but he made up for it by getting 2 critical goals.

If Franson can focus on Defense more and let Gardiner do alot of the Offensive, I would LOVE LOVE LOVE that Gards- Franny Pairing!!!

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Old
07-22-2013, 12:55 AM
  #97
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Franson has the chance to be an impact defenceman. Gunnar doesn't. In the immediate term, Gunnar can't be replaced, but in the medium term he can be.

Advantage Franson.

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Old
07-22-2013, 12:57 AM
  #98
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Franson has a higher upside but he's also more likely to slump than Gunnarsson. I'd take Franson.

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Old
07-22-2013, 01:07 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Even Strength Points

Franson
45 games 16 Points (82 game pace: 29)

Gunnarsson
37 games 15 Points (82 game pace: 33)
Wha? I see Franson's line as 4-25 for 29pts. He has NEVER finished with 16pts in his career.

In reality Franson matched his career high of 29pts this past season, while Gunnar has never surpassed 20.

Franson's previous 29pts came in 80 games.
Franson would have crushed his career high.

I didn't vote, couldn't choose.

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Old
07-22-2013, 01:14 AM
  #100
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Franson is a heavy hitter. Carlyle likes that. I don't think Gunnar is going anywhere anyways so this seems rather moot to me. One never knows though. I suppose.

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