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Old
07-21-2013, 08:49 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
As much as I see a bright future for Morgan Rielly, I think its important for him to go back to the WHL.

Yes, he has tons of skill and can skate with the speed of any league that he enters, but there are too many other elements that aren't brought up. Has anyone brought up the size and trying to handle players like Lucic and others in the Eastern Conference? His defensive play should also be questioned. If you think that people can look beyond that, who is he going to be paired with that is currently on the Leafs that will help him?

Morgan Rielly is a great prospect and will be a very good pro, but the Leafs can't fall into the Kadri factor where you try and shove him in a role when there is no one around to support him and doesn't fit the mold of what you need. The Leafs have 3 offensive defencemen on the team in Liles, Gardiner and Franson.
Liles does not appear to be in the Leafs plans if we go by the amount of slivers he has in his ass.
He will never be big enough to physically handle Lucic...but not many are....he will rely on body positioning and a good stick to compensate for any strength issue he may encounter....as far as his defensive play goes....he is much better defensively then many give him credit for.....

He is a very smart player who reads the play very well and makes good decisions. He also has the ability to skate the puck out of trouble. The best part of his game is that he is an excellent passer.

The Kadri comment I do not understand. No one shoved him into a hole that he did not belong into.

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07-21-2013, 09:00 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by pcruz View Post
Please, please, please. Don't rush this kid to the NHL and destroy him. The NHL is not a develping league. The coaching staff have no time to teach, they have barely enough time to get the team to gel together and teach their preferred plays and all. I understand the frustration it must lead to in the front office. Seeing a player like this, with this much potential and not even being allowed to let him play in the AHL yet.

Sometimes though, you need to swallow the bitter pill in order for it to help you in the long run. This seems like one of those times. You sit the guy down and explain to him that unfortunately, even though he has nothing to learn at the junior level, he can't go to the minors yet to develop properly. So his options are to sit in the press box until such time as he's available to go to the AHL, sacrificing a roster spot and game time for the player, or send him back to junior.

And then, the choice is made and you take the lesser of 2 evils and send him to the junior team.
I don't really understand the bolded part, coaches definitely have the time to teach players and develop them at the NHL level, not really sure why you believe otherwise.

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07-21-2013, 09:13 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by My Sweet Shadow View Post
His two examples of why not be patient with Rielly was Kane and Sidney Crosby. I was just pointing out the ridiculousness of using Crosby as a direct comparison. I would have been perfectly fine if he used Doughty/Bogosian/Hedman/Gudbranson/Larsson as an example.
I'm just giving you thorough information...

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07-21-2013, 09:19 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
I don't really understand the bolded part, coaches definitely have the time to teach players and develop them at the NHL level, not really sure why you believe otherwise.
Playing and coaching in the NHL is not like flipping burgers at a Harveys. There is no time for on the job training. There is way too much money on the line to be teaching raw players what to do in certain situations and how to react to plays that should be natural to the players at the NHL level. I'm not saying that Morgan doesn't have the ability to play in the NHL, but I do know that he will benefit from time in the AHL.

What is the very best organization at developing players in the last 2 decades? How do they treat players in terms of junior, minor league, major league development? Is it a coincidence?

Skill, technique, skating and instinct are things that don't go away. But positioning, reading the play, learning to deal with the size and strength of opponents and learning to deal with the increase in speed and subsequent decrease in reaction time are things that do not happen overnight.

That's the kind of things NHL coaches don't have time to teach. Tactics, puck control, team play, and communication are the kind of things coaches want to focus on, not teaching that one new guy that when the forward goes in behind the net this way, he should be covering the guy here because that's likely where the puck is going to go.

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07-21-2013, 09:27 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Aplayaz2000 View Post
they sure rushed Sidney Crosby
or Evander Kane

man they're destroyed prospects now huh
pretty sure sidney crosby is on a different level from reilly.

as for kane, yeah he worked out fine. but it's a gamble for sure

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07-21-2013, 09:29 PM
  #31
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I hope he is traded to a better WHL team, plays in the World juniors and joins the marlies in the 2014/2015 season.
Whats the rush?

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07-21-2013, 09:34 PM
  #32
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I hope he is traded to a better WHL team, plays in the World juniors and joins the marlies in the 2014/2015 season.
Whats the rush?
If Moose Jaw doesn't plan on competing this year, then it's highly likely they will. It's generally what happens with star players in their final year of eligibility. Likely he'd have to play with them for the first half of the season though.

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07-21-2013, 09:39 PM
  #33
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One question. Would Rielly be eligible to stay with the NHL club until such time as he is eligible to go back to the AHL? I understand that it burns a year off his contract, but if he has nothing really left in the juniors to gain, and going to the AHL would be helpful, is that even an option?

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07-21-2013, 09:43 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
As much as I see a bright future for Morgan Rielly, I think its important for him to go back to the WHL.

Yes, he has tons of skill and can skate with the speed of any league that he enters, but there are too many other elements that aren't brought up. Has anyone brought up the size and trying to handle players like Lucic and others in the Eastern Conference? His defensive play should also be questioned. If you think that people can look beyond that, who is he going to be paired with that is currently on the Leafs that will help him?

Morgan Rielly is a great prospect and will be a very good pro, but the Leafs can't fall into the Kadri factor where you try and shove him in a role when there is no one around to support him and doesn't fit the mold of what you need. The Leafs have 3 offensive defencemen on the team in Liles, Gardiner and Franson.
Maybe the coaching staff will realize he's young and inexperienced and keep him away from the Lucic's of the league initially.
There probably a middle ground between Jr. and Top Pairing assignments, no?

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07-21-2013, 09:47 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
Maybe the coaching staff will realize he's young and inexperienced and keep him away from the Lucic's of the league initially.
There probably a middle ground between Jr. and Top Pairing assignments, no?
It's called the American Hockey League.

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07-21-2013, 09:48 PM
  #36
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P.K. Subban
Height 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m)
Weight 206 lb (93 kg; 14 st 10 lb)

Morgan Rielly
Height 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m)
Weight 205 lb (93 kg; 14 st 9 lb)

For those saying he's not big enough.

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07-21-2013, 09:52 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by pcruz View Post
Playing and coaching in the NHL is not like flipping burgers at a Harveys. There is no time for on the job training. There is way too much money on the line to be teaching raw players what to do in certain situations and how to react to plays that should be natural to the players at the NHL level. I'm not saying that Morgan doesn't have the ability to play in the NHL, but I do know that he will benefit from time in the AHL.

What is the very best organization at developing players in the last 2 decades? How do they treat players in terms of junior, minor league, major league development? Is it a coincidence?

Skill, technique, skating and instinct are things that don't go away. But positioning, reading the play, learning to deal with the size and strength of opponents and learning to deal with the increase in speed and subsequent decrease in reaction time are things that do not happen overnight.

That's the kind of things NHL coaches don't have time to teach. Tactics, puck control, team play, and communication are the kind of things coaches want to focus on, not teaching that one new guy that when the forward goes in behind the net this way, he should be covering the guy here because that's likely where the puck is going to go.
The items you identify as things he has to learn...he already has. Body positioning, reading the play etc are all skills he has currently....speed of play and the lack of time and space is something no one can teach you, you get this playing in the NHL.

Carlyle is a coach who teaches....that is abundantly clear....he wants player to play the game the way he wants....I can tell you that Rielly knows what to do when a player goes behind the net, he also knows that if you are going to flush the player out from behind the net what way to do so.....force the player out on his backhand....he also knows when to do this....A good read of the players behind the nets options is required before chasing....

Tell me the last top 5 player that has Reilly's skill that Detroit has drafted....and you may get your answer as to why they have players playing in the minors longer.....also where the player is from...If they or any team drafts a player from Sweden etc....they generally stay home longer.

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07-21-2013, 09:54 PM
  #38
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I would sure like Leaf chances better if he forced his way on to the roster and the team had a healthy Lupul and Gardiner.

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07-21-2013, 10:11 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Liles is 5'10" 185 lbs (Source Hockeydb)
Gardiner 6'1" 173 lbs

Rielly is 6' .5" 205 lbs

You are concerned with Rielly and players like Lucic, while our back line is patrolled by guys like Liles and Gardiner who are smaller??? How are they surviving?
I'm concerned with the fact that the Leafs would then have 3 players that are small. You aren't going to fix things by adding more smaller players to the back end.

If Rielly can beat out Liles for a roster spot, then by all means let him in the line-up. But currently, he's still on the roster (Liles).

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07-21-2013, 10:20 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
The items you identify as things he has to learn...he already has. Body positioning, reading the play etc are all skills he has currently....speed of play and the lack of time and space is something no one can teach you, you get this playing in the NHL.

Carlyle is a coach who teaches....that is abundantly clear....he wants player to play the game the way he wants....I can tell you that Rielly knows what to do when a player goes behind the net, he also knows that if you are going to flush the player out from behind the net what way to do so.....force the player out on his backhand....he also knows when to do this....A good read of the players behind the nets options is required before chasing....

Tell me the last top 5 player that has Reilly's skill that Detroit has drafted....and you may get your answer as to why they have players playing in the minors longer.....also where the player is from...If they or any team drafts a player from Sweden etc....they generally stay home longer.
What's the point of the AHL then if players learn to deal with NHL-like situations at junior? Are you suggesting that the Leafs spend 10, 20, 30 NHL games teaching Rielly on how to work in the NHL game? How exactly? In practice? 5 minutes a game? 10 minutes a game? 15 minutes a game?

There is a lot of merit in working your way up from the bottom and earning a spot. If he shows to be superior than some "roster" players, then he should make the team and play the 9 games, and then have the coaching staff evaluate his situation.

If he doesn't show to be superior to the "roster" players, then what's the point in rushing him up to the NHL club?

The issue at hand is the rush. Not the finished product. Everybody has a different learning/maturing curve. If Rielly is definitely ready, then he should get a shot. If he isn't, then he should not be rushed.

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07-21-2013, 10:21 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
Maybe the coaching staff will realize he's young and inexperienced and keep him away from the Lucic's of the league initially.
There probably a middle ground between Jr. and Top Pairing assignments, no?
Do you really want him getting 3rd line minutes?

I'm on the fence with that issue. You want him to develop, but what are you going to show him playing 15 minutes a night and in a sheltered role. Then he goes into the line-up and tries to do too much.

You would prefer to have him play in the PK Role in junior along with trying to play big minutes there.

Also, you have enough players on the team that you have to be concerned about giving minutes too. Gardiner looked good in the playoffs, but you have to remember that he struggled throughout the year and didn't look 100% coming back off his injury. More than likely he starts on the 2nd pairing, but you really aren't going to pair him with Rielly because that would be a colossal mistake. Then at the same token, you don't want to give Liles and Fraser the amount of ice-time out of pure talent and being a liability.

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07-21-2013, 10:30 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Liles does not appear to be in the Leafs plans if we go by the amount of slivers he has in his ass.
He will never be big enough to physically handle Lucic...but not many are....he will rely on body positioning and a good stick to compensate for any strength issue he may encounter....as far as his defensive play goes....he is much better defensively then many give him credit for.....

He is a very smart player who reads the play very well and makes good decisions. He also has the ability to skate the puck out of trouble. The best part of his game is that he is an excellent passer.

The Kadri comment I do not understand. No one shoved him into a hole that he did not belong into.
I do agree with you that Liles is better defensively than what people give him credit for and also agree that he's not going to be in the Leafs' plans going forward. But as it stands, he's making too much money on the cap and the Leafs have almost no choice but to play him.


I was referring to Kadri coming into the line-up and being put on the 2nd line with Lupul and being given players to play with. When the Leafs brought him up before, they put him on the 2nd and 3rd line with guys like Kulemin and Hanson, etc. The Leafs gave him no support and no chance to succeed. Now he's become a better pro because he's starting to work harder AND being given players around him that are offensively gifted.

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07-21-2013, 10:34 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Igy View Post
P.K. Subban
Height 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m)
Weight 206 lb (93 kg; 14 st 10 lb)

Morgan Rielly
Height 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m)
Weight 205 lb (93 kg; 14 st 9 lb)

For those saying he's not big enough.
I'm not saying that he's a small player in size, just the fact that his game is all offense. He's going to get exposed defensively.

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07-21-2013, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
I'm not saying that he's a small player in size, just the fact that his game is all offense. He's going to get exposed defensively.
Rielly's defensive game is being seriously underrated. He is very intelligent and can read plays a lot better than Gardiner. I'm not saying he's Lidstrom, but he's a puck rusher, who can distribute the puck very well, and can play a simple game as well.

If he can earn a place. I'd let him play.

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07-21-2013, 10:41 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by pcruz View Post
What's the point of the AHL then if players learn to deal with NHL-like situations at junior? Are you suggesting that the Leafs spend 10, 20, 30 NHL games teaching Rielly on how to work in the NHL game? How exactly? In practice? 5 minutes a game? 10 minutes a game? 15 minutes a game?

There is a lot of merit in working your way up from the bottom and earning a spot. If he shows to be superior than some "roster" players, then he should make the team and play the 9 games, and then have the coaching staff evaluate his situation.

If he doesn't show to be superior to the "roster" players, then what's the point in rushing him up to the NHL club?

The issue at hand is the rush. Not the finished product. Everybody has a different learning/maturing curve. If Rielly is definitely ready, then he should get a shot. If he isn't, then he should not be rushed.
If he is not ready he will go back to Jr.....

As far as teaching him what to do in certain situations....that happens as a team when they watch video together and as well when players ewatch with the coach in charge of defense....then and as well through feedback during practices and games.....this is called coaching. The point of the AHL is to develop the players who can not go back to Jr who are not yet ready for the NHL....it is not a warehouse to keep players out of the NHL if they are ready.

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07-21-2013, 10:47 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
If he is not ready he will go back to Jr.....

As far as teaching him what to do in certain situations....that happens as a team when they watch video together and as well when players ewatch with the coach in charge of defense....then and as well through feedback during practices and games.....this is called coaching. The point of the AHL is to develop the players who can not go back to Jr who are not yet ready for the NHL....it is not a warehouse to keep players out of the NHL if they are ready.
So, we are in agreement, that rushing a player who is not ready is a mistake?
If he is not ready, he will go back to junior, as hard as it might be to swallow the bitterness.

That's exactly my first post on the matter.

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07-21-2013, 11:08 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by pcruz View Post
So, we are in agreement, that rushing a player who is not ready is a mistake?
If he is not ready, he will go back to junior, as hard as it might be to swallow the bitterness.

That's exactly my first post on the matter.
If he is not ready he should go back to Jr....I however feel he will be ready and I believe the Leafs do as well.

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07-21-2013, 11:08 PM
  #48
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I really don't think there should be any debate on this until after training camp. If the coaching staff believes hes ready to play then I say give him those 9 games so he can already get a feel for the NHL ( dont see how this would hurt his development). If they feel hes not ready to play in the NHL (defensive game etc.) then send him back to junior so he can work on the weaker parts of his game.

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07-21-2013, 11:09 PM
  #49
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Coming into the NHL as a 6 foot D is not exactly small. fair enough, but does pose challenges, there are some massive mean forwards that will expose his size and strength as an issue. In time he will learn tricks and effective ways to manage but these things take time and experience . D is a tough position to play at the NHL level

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07-21-2013, 11:30 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by I am Canadian View Post
I hope he is traded to a better WHL team, plays in the World juniors and joins the marlies in the 2014/2015 season.
Whats the rush?
Why do you want him on a better WHL team? Playing less minutes and against lesser competition doesn't help your development at all. If you want him to take a reduced role like Reinhart had to, I guess you can hope he gets traded. I don't think playing 20 minutes at an inferior level is better than played 30+ though.

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Originally Posted by My Sweet Shadow View Post
If Moose Jaw doesn't plan on competing this year, then it's highly likely they will. It's generally what happens with star players in their final year of eligibility. Likely he'd have to play with them for the first half of the season though.
I can't see MJ trading him, or anyone trying to get him. The price would be absolutely ridiculous (See Brayden Schenn trade). It would virtually destroy a teams chance of being competitive for a few years.

As a side bar, I get the feeling most of you don't understand player development. The ones clamoring on about not rushing him can't tell me why he shouldn't be "rushed". And the one's who say he needs to work on his defensive habits really need to watch him play before coming to these assumptions.

Let him earn his spot, give him 9 games, go from there. Arguing about Rielly right now is pointless when most of the people saying they know what's best for his development probably don't even know his defense partner in MJ.

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