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Guy Carbonneau HOF

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07-23-2013, 10:21 AM
  #26
tony d
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I think he gets in, maybe not a great offensive guy but the guy was extremely solid defensively for a long time.

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07-23-2013, 10:29 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by LeclairVt View Post
Oh and how could I forget, Carbonneau's finest hour. He singlehandedly shut down the Great One in the Finals in 1993. He outplayed the best hockey player in the history of the world on the biggest stage possible, highest stakes imaginable. I believe achievements like this should carry more weight than goals and assists recorded on a ledger.
You lost me after this one.

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07-23-2013, 10:36 AM
  #28
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On the topic: Carbonneau belongs. Good thing he didn't give us too much trouble in Dallas

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07-23-2013, 11:17 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
You realize Gartner was inducted into the HOF in 2001 right?
Wow...No. I honestly totally missed the fact that this player was in the HOF. It's just my opinion but I don't think he belongs. Considering the era he played in, his offensive production was second-rate and that's basically all he brought to the table.

In my opinion, Guy Carbonneau was unquestionably the better player. I think a gm back in the day would have traded that player straight up for Carbo and walked away laughing.

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07-23-2013, 11:50 AM
  #30
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A lot of people here, myself included, value long careers. Gartner, while never an elite player, had a great career with exceptional productive longevity, as indicated by his numbers.

If you are a GM, you want to win and don't give a damn about longevity. But HHOF evaluates entire careers, and Gartner's should not be snubbed. I think Carbonneau will make it some day, but until Makarov is inducted, HHOF will not be a perfect judgement of one's achievements.

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07-23-2013, 12:25 PM
  #31
Pat Paeplow
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I apologize if my argument comes off as disrespectful toward Gartner as it advocates for Carbo. I don't mean to snub him. He had a long and productive career. I would go so far as to call him a great hockey player. I just can't get behind calling him one of the best hockey players in the history of the world which is what a HOFer is.

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07-23-2013, 01:39 PM
  #32
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The more I think about it, the more sure I am that he deserves to be in the Hall. Probably the best defensive centre of the expansion era, add in longevity, leadership, and a solid playoff record. Plus, his scoring production is actually better than it looks when you consider that he didn't get much power-play time.

As a point of comparison, there's two players in the Baseball HOF (Ozzie Smith and Bill Mazeroski) whose offensive numbers are far below the HOF threshold, but are there because they are recognized as the best players defensively at their respective positions. But in baseball, a players defence can be better defined with statistics; plus they have the yearly Gold Glove picks at each position. It's easier to justify a Hall case with numbers to back up a players defensive reputation. Hockey doesn't have that though, so it becomes harder to make a case for a defensive forward.

It's interesting to note that Carbonneau was actually a high scorer in the QMJHL (2nd overall in scoring in his last year). It's possible that had he been drafted by another team, they may have tried to groom him as a scorer rather than a checker.

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07-23-2013, 04:02 PM
  #33
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Guy Carbonneau QMJHL

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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
The more I think about it, the more sure I am that he deserves to be in the Hall. Probably the best defensive centre of the expansion era, add in longevity, leadership, and a solid playoff record. Plus, his scoring production is actually better than it looks when you consider that he didn't get much power-play time.

It's interesting to note that Carbonneau was actually a high scorer in the QMJHL (2nd overall in scoring in his last year). It's possible that had he been drafted by another team, they may have tried to groom him as a scorer rather than a checker.
Bobby Clarke says hi.

In his last season in the QMJHL, Guy Carbonneau played time and a half to time and three quarters. Right point on the PP + PK plus was rotated thru the third line. The scoring numbers reflect this.

Defensively he was the best Q center of the late seventies, slightly ahead of Steve Kasper. However he was not Doug Jarvis quality defensively coming out of junior.Jarvis stepped directly into the NHL as a defensive center in 1975-76. Carbonneau needed a year in the AHL to work on skating at the pro pace and his overall game.

In the NHL his defensive game started approaching elite levels once Jacques Lemaire joined the Canadiens as an assistant coach at the start of the 1983-84 season.From there it was a steady polishing of his defensive game until it reached Selke levels.

Definite HHOFer.

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07-23-2013, 05:04 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
You realize that he is suggesting a scenario in which Gartner wasn't inducted and that people who haven't seen him play would advocate his HHoF worthiness based on career stats in the future in this case?
Answered by the following >>>>>

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Originally Posted by Dopamine Fiend View Post
Wow...No. I honestly totally missed the fact that this player was in the HOF. It's just my opinion but I don't think he belongs. Considering the era he played in, his offensive production was second-rate and that's basically all he brought to the table.

In my opinion, Guy Carbonneau was unquestionably the better player. I think a gm back in the day would have traded that player straight up for Carbo and walked away laughing.

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07-23-2013, 06:37 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
But in baseball, a players defence can be better defined with statistics
This is false.

A superior fielding percentage does not necessarily equate to a better fielder.

To use an example from last year's AL champion Detroit Tigers...

The Tigers moved Miguel Cabrera to 3b in order to make room for Prince Fielder at 1b. They let stellar defensive player Brandon Inge go, and Oakland picked him up. Cabrera himself also has always posted a strong f%, but there is one major difference; Inge has a much greater range. Had the Tigers let go of a spare part (such as 2b Ramon Santiago, which was my preference) and played Cabrera at 2b - a "less rangy" position in most situations - the Tigers would have been better off. Many ground balls got past Cabrera that wouldn't have gotten past Inge simply due to range, but didn't hurt his f% because f% is based on the number of plays you are actually involved in and the number of errors you make; it doesn't count the ones you aren't able to get involved in.

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07-23-2013, 06:40 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Dopamine Fiend View Post
I apologize if my argument comes off as disrespectful toward Gartner as it advocates for Carbo. I don't mean to snub him. He had a long and productive career. I would go so far as to call him a great hockey player. I just can't get behind calling him one of the best hockey players in the history of the world which is what a HOFer is.
Gartner was consistently an excellent scorer, and scored over 700 goals.

You can call him a compiler, but at some point compiled statistics simply cannot be ignored. Especially when they're compiled by a guy who averaged about 0.5 GPG on his career; it's not like he played 3000 games or something.

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07-24-2013, 02:47 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Gartner was consistently an excellent scorer, and scored over 700 goals.

You can call him a compiler, but at some point compiled statistics simply cannot be ignored. Especially when they're compiled by a guy who averaged about 0.5 GPG on his career; it's not like he played 3000 games or something.
If Garter starts his career after 1993 he doesnt even hit 600. Ciccarelli has the same GPG and PPG, and much better playoff numbers. So should he be in as well?

Would Gartner get into other Hall of Fames? I dont think so. IMO a Hall of Fame should be for great players.

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07-24-2013, 03:04 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
If Garter starts his career after 1993 he doesnt even hit 600. Ciccarelli has the same GPG and PPG, and much better playoff numbers. So should he be in as well?

Would Gartner get into other Hall of Fames? I dont think so. IMO a Hall of Fame should be for great players.
You might want to peruse the rosters for the other Big Four Hall of Fames: There's a lot of guys in those halls who where "just" very good rather than ATGs. Whether you me or anyone else thinks the HOFs should be reserved for the all-time greats is rather immaterial given that the people who actually vote for entry have much looser standards.

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07-24-2013, 04:13 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
If Garter starts his career after 1993 he doesnt even hit 600. Ciccarelli has the same GPG and PPG, and much better playoff numbers. So should he be in as well?

Would Gartner get into other Hall of Fames? I dont think so. IMO a Hall of Fame should be for great players.
Ciccarelli is in.

And no, Gartner wouldn't get into other Halls. Mainly because scoring 700+ NHL goals doesn't do much for your baseball, basketball, football, tennis, etc. credentials.

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07-24-2013, 10:33 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Gartner was consistently an excellent pretty good scorer, and scored over 700 goals.

You can call him a compiler, but at some point compiled statistics simply cannot be ignored. Especially when they're compiled by a guy who averaged about 0.5 GPG on his career; it's not like he played 3000 games or something.
to me, carbo and claude lemieux are borderline. those guys were elite at their roles and won hockey games. but gartner, admittedly pretty good at one thing, is solidly on the wrong side of the line.

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07-24-2013, 10:45 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
This is false.

A superior fielding percentage does not necessarily equate to a better fielder.

To use an example from last year's AL champion Detroit Tigers...

The Tigers moved Miguel Cabrera to 3b in order to make room for Prince Fielder at 1b. They let stellar defensive player Brandon Inge go, and Oakland picked him up. Cabrera himself also has always posted a strong f%, but there is one major difference; Inge has a much greater range. Had the Tigers let go of a spare part (such as 2b Ramon Santiago, which was my preference) and played Cabrera at 2b - a "less rangy" position in most situations - the Tigers would have been better off. Many ground balls got past Cabrera that wouldn't have gotten past Inge simply due to range, but didn't hurt his f% because f% is based on the number of plays you are actually involved in and the number of errors you make; it doesn't count the ones you aren't able to get involved in.
Sure but at least baseball defensive stats paint some sort of a better pitcher on defensive play than any hockey stats do in that regard.

Guy was a very good defensive player and a good one overall but it he has the misfortune of never playing for a SC winner is this even a topic?

With the SO now in the regular season is some guy who dominates there, and arguably has more impact on actual team standings than a guy like Guy ever did, who is going to get into the HHOF because he is an elite SO guy?

Elite offense is a sure ticket into the HHOF but elite D probably never will be for the simple reason that you can teach a guy to play D but can't teach elite offense.

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07-24-2013, 10:51 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Litework View Post
If Garter starts his career after 1993 he doesnt even hit 600. Ciccarelli has the same GPG and PPG, and much better playoff numbers. So should he be in as well?

Would Gartner get into other Hall of Fames? I dont think so. IMO a Hall of Fame should be for great players.
Baseball has lots of guys who hit a consistent .300 when other guys ahve more power, obo and defense as well.

Goals and a guy like Gartner could be the hockey equivalent of a baseball .300 guy IMO.

That being said too much copying of baseball jargon and terminology has already taken place hockey is unique and there never was a dead puck ever.

Not sure why the term dead puck era was ever brought up but it's factually inaccurate and a bit lazy to boot.

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07-24-2013, 12:00 PM
  #43
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Guy Carbonneau

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Sure but at least baseball defensive stats paint some sort of a better pitcher on defensive play than any hockey stats do in that regard.

Guy was a very good defensive player and a good one overall but it he has the misfortune of never playing for a SC winner is this even a topic?

With the SO now in the regular season is some guy who dominates there, and arguably has more impact on actual team standings than a guy like Guy ever did, who is going to get into the HHOF because he is an elite SO guy?

Elite offense is a sure ticket into the HHOF but elite D probably never will be for the simple reason that you can teach a guy to play D but can't teach elite offense.
If by Guy you are referring to Guy Carbonneau then you may like to know that he was a member of 3 SC Championship teams - 1986 and 1993 Montreal plus 1999 Dallas. Captain 1993 Montreal, member SC finalist team in 1989, 2000.

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07-24-2013, 05:34 PM
  #44
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Toews in Chicago as well. That guy can play coming & going. Eric Staal's another.
Eric Staal should not be confused with two-way players.

He's not even average defensively.

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07-24-2013, 06:05 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Dopamine Fiend View Post
Seriously.

Why isn't this player, or more specifically this type of player ever considered for the Hall of Fame? The only true defensive forward inducted is Bob Gainey and he's like the Wayne Gretzky of defensive forwards.
Defensive forwards decide fewer NHL games than NFL kickers (relatively, given 16 vs 82 game seasons), and there's only one pure kicker in the Pro Football HOF.

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Originally Posted by Dopamine Fiend View Post
Oh and how could I forget, Carbonneau's finest hour. He singlehandedly shut down the Great One in the Finals in 1993. He outplayed the best hockey player in the history of the world on the biggest stage possible, highest stakes imaginable. I believe achievements like this should carry more weight than goals and assists recorded on a ledger.
No. See here: 1993 SCF Highlights

Gretzky is still creating plenty of chances with Muller or Carbs on the ice, in spite of his being "singlehandedly shut down" by Carbs, who in his finest hour wasn't anywhere close to being the best player on the Habs. He can't even be considered in the top 3.

Let's compare:
Gretzky vs Leafs: 7 GP, 5-5-10, -4
Gilmour: 7 GP, 4-9-13, +6

Gretzky vs Habs: 5 GP, 2-5-7, +1
Carbonneau: 5 GP, 0-1-1, +1

Gilmour's performance was far better than Carbonneau's. Bringing nothing to the table offensively isn't good when the guy you shut down is scoring at 1.4 ppg (exactly what he scored vs Toronto...) Had Patrick Roy not been in the Montreal net, Carbonneau's performance would have been a forgettable defeat. Considering that Gretzky scored 1.4 PPG anyways, it makes you wonder how many goals Carbs actually prevented. (Smothering the potential game 4 GWG might count...)

Carbonneau was an excellent role player, but was never the best player on his team. While his longevity may allow him to "outcompile" a Doug Jarvis, he didn't do much to distinguish himself from guys like Craig Ramsay or Jere Lehtinen.

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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Would Gartner get into other Hall of Fames? I dont think so. IMO a Hall of Fame should be for great players.
Art Monk made it into Canton.

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07-24-2013, 06:19 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Eric Staal should not be confused with two-way players. He's not even average defensively.
What are you talking about? Staal was 4th amongst Centres with plus-10 rating, had 20 takeaways tied for 3rd, excellent fore & back checker, won 51.3% of his faceoffs, decent numbers on the shot block, big, strong, excellent reach, aggressive, great skater. Captain of his team. Thats a good player there.

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07-24-2013, 06:20 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post

Gretzky is still creating plenty of chances with Muller or Carbs on the ice, in spite of his being "singlehandedly shut down" by Carbs, who in his finest hour wasn't anywhere close to being the best player on the Habs. He can't even be considered in the top 3.

Let's compare:
Gretzky vs Leafs: 7 GP, 5-5-10, -4
Gilmour: 7 GP, 4-9-13, +6

Gretzky vs Habs: 5 GP, 2-5-7, +1
Carbonneau: 5 GP, 0-1-1, +1

Gilmour's performance was far better than Carbonneau's. Bringing nothing to the table offensively isn't good when the guy you shut down is scoring at 1.4 ppg (exactly what he scored vs Toronto...) Had Patrick Roy not been in the Montreal net, Carbonneau's performance would have been a forgettable defeat. Considering that Gretzky scored 1.4 PPG anyways, it makes you wonder how many goals Carbs actually prevented. (Smothering the potential game 4 GWG might count...)
why not toss out the per game averages and just say that the difference is gilmour & co did a pretty good job of keeping gretzky quiet for almost six games, but not in the two most crucial instances. whereas carbo & co did a pretty good job of keeping gretzky quiet for four consecutive games, all wins.

not to say that carbo was on '93 gilmour's level, just sayin'. but on the '93 team, i'd put carbo up there with desjardins, muller, and damphousse as the guys in the debate for #s 2 and 3 on that team.

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07-24-2013, 06:21 PM
  #48
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What are you talking about? Staal was 4th amongst Centres with plus-10 rating, had 20 takeaways tied for 3rd, excellent fore & back checker, won 51.3% of his faceoffs, decent numbers on the shot block, big, strong, excellent reach, aggressive, great skater. Captain of his team. Thats a good player there.
That is a good player.

Just not a good defensive player.

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07-24-2013, 06:26 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
That is a good player. Just not a good defensive player.
I havent actually watched him much myself, 2nd hand information, but he's certainly ranked fairly highly as a shutdown type player. I guess you get to watch him a lot more out east there. Obviously not impressed huh?

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07-24-2013, 06:31 PM
  #50
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Comparables

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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
Defensive forwards decide fewer NHL games than NFL kickers (relatively, given 16 vs 82 game seasons), and there's only one pure kicker in the Pro Football HOF.
Conversely each SC championship team has had at least one excellent forward, usually a cente, most instances more.

In the NFL, Super Bowl teams have won Super Bowls or previously the
NFL or AFL Championships with very pedestrian kickers.

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