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Guy Carbonneau HOF

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Old
07-24-2013, 06:34 PM
  #51
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Conversely each SC championship team has had at least one excellent forward, usually a cente, most instances more.

In the NFL, Super Bowl teams have won Super Bowls or previously the
NFL or AFL Championships with very pedestrian kickers.
Hell, teams have won Super Bowls/League Championships with very pedestrian quarterbacks.

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07-24-2013, 06:38 PM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I havent actually watched him much myself, 2nd hand information, but he's certainly ranked fairly highly as a shutdown type player. I guess you get to watch him a lot more out east there. Obviously not impressed huh?
My son is a Canes fan (left over from Whalers days), has Center Ice package so he can see all their games. He's not impressed either.

By the way, were all those Staal stats bogus, off the top of your Right Hemisphere?

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07-24-2013, 06:39 PM
  #53
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Defense

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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Hell, teams have won Super Bowls/League Championships with very pedestrian quarterbacks.
Inevitably such teams had superior elite defenses and the defensive leaders received HOF recognition.

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07-24-2013, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Inevitably such teams had superior elite defenses and the defensive leaders received HOF recognition.
Or overpowering ground games.....or both

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07-24-2013, 07:04 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
Defensive forwards decide fewer NHL games than NFL kickers (relatively, given 16 vs 82 game seasons), and there's only one pure kicker in the Pro Football HOF.



No. See here: 1993 SCF Highlights

Gretzky is still creating plenty of chances with Muller or Carbs on the ice, in spite of his being "singlehandedly shut down" by Carbs, who in his finest hour wasn't anywhere close to being the best player on the Habs. He can't even be considered in the top 3.

Let's compare:
Gretzky vs Leafs: 7 GP, 5-5-10, -4
Gilmour: 7 GP, 4-9-13, +6

Gretzky vs Habs: 5 GP, 2-5-7, +1
Carbonneau: 5 GP, 0-1-1, +1

Gilmour's performance was far better than Carbonneau's. Bringing nothing to the table offensively isn't good when the guy you shut down is scoring at 1.4 ppg (exactly what he scored vs Toronto...) Had Patrick Roy not been in the Montreal net, Carbonneau's performance would have been a forgettable defeat. Considering that Gretzky scored 1.4 PPG anyways, it makes you wonder how many goals Carbs actually prevented. (Smothering the potential game 4 GWG might count...)

Carbonneau was an excellent role player, but was never the best player on his team. While his longevity may allow him to "outcompile" a Doug Jarvis, he didn't do much to distinguish himself from guys like Craig Ramsay or Jere Lehtinen.



Art Monk made it into Canton.
Gretz went off in Game 1 matching up against Damphousse. Demers put Carbo's line on him for the rest of the series.

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07-24-2013, 07:14 PM
  #56
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Guy carboneau hof? Pahhhleeezzzz......

Very good player, great defender but lets get real folks.

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07-24-2013, 07:18 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
My son is a Canes fan (left over from Whalers days), has Center Ice package so he can see all their games. He's not impressed either.... By the way, were all those Staal stats bogus, off the top of your Right Hemisphere?
... ahh no, they were quite real, the stats. I dont "make stuff up". 2012/13 an abbreviated season so lets see what this guy does over the next, the one after that & so on. Your information, from your Son? Im afraid thats 2nd hand Mr.Bonvie. Id like a full report on one Eric Staal from your own eyeballs on my desk by December 31st. We'll just see if your Son knows the first thing about hockey or not. My informations second hand as well, but its from media reports, scribes & hacks who supposedly know what their talking about... when sober.

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07-24-2013, 08:20 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
Art Monk made it into Canton.
Art Monk:

-won 3 Super bowls
- 2 time all-pro
- First player to catch 100 passes in a season
- Was at one time the all-time leader in receptions
- 1980s All-Decade team

Seriously? Monk was given a 4 minute standing ovation when he was inducted.

Im not seeing the comparison to Gartner.

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07-24-2013, 08:27 PM
  #59
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Could someone on this site compare Guy Charbonoe and Bob Gainey statistics?And other variables I bet its close but Guy is a notch ahead

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07-24-2013, 08:36 PM
  #60
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The comparisons to Gainey are really far-fetched. Gainey was far more physical, a much better skater and considered one of the better players in the world in his prime. Gainey impacted the game so much that they invented an award after him to recognize his abilities.

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07-24-2013, 08:59 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Dopamine Fiend View Post
Gretz went off in Game 1 matching up against Damphousse. Demers put Carbo's line on him for the rest of the series.
You may mean Muller, who saw a lot of Gretzky in Game 1. Damphousse wasn't centering a line against Gretzky.

And if you see the highlights, you can see Gretzky isn't being prevented from creating scoring chances in the next three games either, especially in Game 3.

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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
why not toss out the per game averages and just say that the difference is gilmour & co did a pretty good job of keeping gretzky quiet for almost six games, but not in the two most crucial instances. whereas carbo & co did a pretty good job of keeping gretzky quiet for four consecutive games, all wins.

not to say that carbo was on '93 gilmour's level, just sayin'. but on the '93 team, i'd put carbo up there with desjardins, muller, and damphousse as the guys in the debate for #s 2 and 3 on that team.
I won't say that because it's not like Carbonneau was doing anything notable when Gretzky and the Kings rallied from a 3-0 deficit. Full Game 3 here. And I am unimpressed by Carbs. He's not bad, but he's not making me say "Put that man in the Hall of Fame right NOW!"

And yes, they were wins. That is why people seem to be remembering Carbo's performance more fondly than Gilmour's easily superior 2-way performance. Amazing how good Carbo looks when Patrick Roy is having one of the great goaltending performances in history...

The Habs at the time believed Kirk Muller was being wasted on Gretzky because someone needed to produce offense and believed Muller couldn't do it while trying to defend Gretzky. Carbonneau produced no offense anyways, so he was the perfect fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Conversely each SC championship team has had at least one excellent forward, usually a cente, most instances more.

In the NFL, Super Bowl teams have won Super Bowls or previously the
NFL or AFL Championships with very pedestrian kickers.
Can you honestly say Carbonneau was that forward? The 1993 Habs are in more of a bind if Muller or Damphousse break their legs than if Carbonneau is missing. Carbonneau was not a top-line player. To compare him to Joe Montana is not apt. He was a role player. 1-way checking centres are not pieces to build a team around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Inevitably such teams had superior elite defenses and the defensive leaders received HOF recognition.
In football you're supposed to be one-dimensional. If a basketball player like Bobby Jones can't get in (NBA All-Defensive 1st Team 1976-84, with a 1st team ABA nod in 75 and 2nd team NBA in 85), and no one even considers him, why should Carbonneau make it?

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07-24-2013, 09:04 PM
  #62
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... ahh no, they were quite real, the stats. I dont "make stuff up". 2012/13 an abbreviated season so lets see what this guy does over the next, the one after that & so on. Your information, from your Son? Im afraid thats 2nd hand Mr.Bonvie. Id like a full report on one Eric Staal from your own eyeballs on my desk by December 31st. We'll just see if your Son knows the first thing about hockey or not. My informations second hand as well, but its from media reports, scribes & hacks who supposedly know what their talking about... when sober.
I see Staal with a +5, not +10, 34th among centers, not 4th.

The kid has passed the old man in hockey knowledge. As for my own eyeballs, Eric Staal still seems to be a defensive zone puck watcher. Maybe your sources were spelling Eric incorrectly, like J-o-r-d-o-n.

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07-24-2013, 09:34 PM
  #63
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Guy carboneau. ..next stop toni tanti & gerard gallant...

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07-24-2013, 09:59 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Art Monk:

-won 3 Super bowls
- 2 time all-pro
- First player to catch 100 passes in a season
- Was at one time the all-time leader in receptions
- 1980s All-Decade team

Seriously? Monk was given a 4 minute standing ovation when he was inducted.

Im not seeing the comparison to Gartner.
They are not perfect analogies, but Monk retired second in receiving yards while finishing in the top ten 3 times. He finished 5th in TD catches with only one top 10 finish (career high of 8!). Mark Clayton has 84 TDs in 158 games and merits no consideration. Monk has 68 in 224 and gets a 4 minute standing ovation.

In short, he compiled his way in, and his numbers were staggeringly impressive at first glance though he was never the best WR in the game.

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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
I see Staal with a +5, not +10, 34th among centers, not 4th.

The kid has passed the old man in hockey knowledge. As for my own eyeballs, Eric Staal still seems to be a defensive zone puck watcher. Maybe your sources were spelling Eric incorrectly, like J-o-r-d-o-n.
HA! I hope that's intentional.

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07-24-2013, 10:32 PM
  #65
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Multi-Dimensional Players

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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post

The Habs at the time believed Kirk Muller was being wasted on Gretzky because someone needed to produce offense and believed Muller couldn't do it while trying to defend Gretzky. Carbonneau produced no offense anyways, so he was the perfect fit.



Can you honestly say Carbonneau was that forward? The 1993 Habs are in more of a bind if Muller or Damphousse break their legs than if Carbonneau is missing. Carbonneau was not a top-line player. To compare him to Joe Montana is not apt. He was a role player. 1-way checking centres are not pieces to build a team around.



In football you're supposed to be one-dimensional. If a basketball player like Bobby Jones can't get in (NBA All-Defensive 1st Team 1976-84, with a 1st team ABA nod in 75 and 2nd team NBA in 85), and no one even considers him, why should Carbonneau make it?

Bobby Jones falls a little short of Dennis Johnson who has comparable defensive honours with slightly better offense and longevity.Jones was rather weak at the FT line. Other than the compelling "virtues" - did not swear, etc there is little of HOF quality.

Punters and kickers tend to be one-dimensional in FB since the mid sixties. Punters only versatility may be holding for placekickers.

Old kickers - Hornung, Blanda, Jerry Kramer played one of the 22 positions. Some hung around for years due to their kicking skills - Lou Groza. Punters - Yale Lary a HOF DB also punted, Norm van Brocklin, HOF QB, punted.

Football HOFers tend to be multi-dimensional as opposed to situational players unless breaking in or near retirement. Example, a HOF running back runs, catches, run blocks, pass blocks. Same for the other 22 positions to various extents.

Back to Guy Carbonneau, coming of an injury plagued season he managed to be a difference maker during the playoffs and against Wayne Gretzky. Due to Gretzky's extensive ice time the Canadiens tended towards a collective approach from their centers when playing the Oilers and the Kings. Going back to 1983-84 they tended to rotate their centers - Smith, Mondou,Carbonneau thru Muller, Damphousse plus versatile wingers, giving Gretzky various looks, various skill sets - RHS/LHS, speed, size, finesse, etc.

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07-25-2013, 02:12 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Bobby Jones falls a little short of Dennis Johnson who has comparable defensive honours with slightly better offense and longevity.Jones was rather weak at the FT line. Other than the compelling "virtues" - did not swear, etc there is little of HOF quality.

Punters and kickers tend to be one-dimensional in FB since the mid sixties. Punters only versatility may be holding for placekickers.

Old kickers - Hornung, Blanda, Jerry Kramer played one of the 22 positions. Some hung around for years due to their kicking skills - Lou Groza. Punters - Yale Lary a HOF DB also punted, Norm van Brocklin, HOF QB, punted.

Football HOFers tend to be multi-dimensional as opposed to situational players unless breaking in or near retirement. Example, a HOF running back runs, catches, run blocks, pass blocks. Same for the other 22 positions to various extents.

Back to Guy Carbonneau, coming of an injury plagued season he managed to be a difference maker during the playoffs and against Wayne Gretzky. Due to Gretzky's extensive ice time the Canadiens tended towards a collective approach from their centers when playing the Oilers and the Kings. Going back to 1983-84 they tended to rotate their centers - Smith, Mondou,Carbonneau thru Muller, Damphousse plus versatile wingers, giving Gretzky various looks, various skill sets - RHS/LHS, speed, size, finesse, etc.
DJ is similar, but has fewer defensive laurels than Jones. DJ was far better offensively than Carbonneau. Carbonneau was never close to a post-season AS team, Johnson made it twice. And even then DJ was on the fence for a long time before he got in.

I don't know where this footbal conversation has gone in its relevance to Carbonneau.

And as for this "collective approach" to stopping Gretzky...
EXACTLY!! It wasn't all Carbonneau and Carbonneau wasn't significantly better or worse than anyone else was at the job.

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07-25-2013, 02:29 PM
  #67
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maybe the closest basketball analogy to carbonneau is dennis rodman. a pure defensive player (i.e., not a two-way guy) and probably the best pure defensive guy of his generation, entered the league and developed under a legendary defensive environment, DPOY awards, key contributor to two different championship teams, HHOFer.

of course, basketball has counting stats for rodman (rebounds) that hockey didn't yet have for carbonneau (blocked shots, faceoffs, takeaways).

also, i'm curious to see what becomes of mutombo's and ben wallace's HHOF cases as time passes. but like rodman, carbo has the winning pedigree along with the awards.

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07-25-2013, 03:56 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
maybe the closest basketball analogy to carbonneau is dennis rodman. a pure defensive player (i.e., not a two-way guy) and probably the best pure defensive guy of his generation, entered the league and developed under a legendary defensive environment, DPOY awards, key contributor to two different championship teams, HHOFer.

of course, basketball has counting stats for rodman (rebounds) that hockey didn't yet have for carbonneau (blocked shots, faceoffs, takeaways).

also, i'm curious to see what becomes of mutombo's and ben wallace's HHOF cases as time passes. but like rodman, carbo has the winning pedigree along with the awards.
All of those guys made All-NBA teams. Because they were considered to be among the best forwards/centres of their time.

Guy Carbonneau never made a post-season All-Star team, and not just because of Gretzky and Lemieux, but because he never had any support. Was he one of the top 5 centres in the NHL at any point in history? Because he was usually #2 or #3 on his own team.

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07-25-2013, 07:21 PM
  #69
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If by Guy you are referring to Guy Carbonneau then you may like to know that he was a member of 3 SC Championship teams - 1986 and 1993 Montreal plus 1999 Dallas. Captain 1993 Montreal, member SC finalist team in 1989, 2000.
The point of the matter is that Bob Gainey and Craig Ramsay were probably pretty close defensively, heck Craig was way better offensively, but the guy who was a member of 6 SC teams is the guy who gets the glory, if they had played on each others team and switched places Craig would be the HHOF guy IMO.

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07-25-2013, 09:13 PM
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Well.........

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Originally Posted by blogofmike View Post
DJ is similar, but has fewer defensive laurels than Jones. DJ was far better offensively than Carbonneau. Carbonneau was never close to a post-season AS team, Johnson made it twice. And even then DJ was on the fence for a long time before he got in.

I don't know where this footbal conversation has gone in its relevance to Carbonneau.

And as for this "collective approach" to stopping Gretzky...
EXACTLY!!
It wasn't all Carbonneau and Carbonneau wasn't significantly better or worse than anyone else was at the job.
You introduced the irrelevant football analogies. I just illustrated that they were so.

As for the NBA/NHL cross sport comparison. Again you raised it. Realistically 5 out of 12 NBA roster spots start and have a reasonable chance at a roster spot. NHL 18 of a teams roster has an AST chance. Adjust to the number of NHL/NBA teams any season and the NBA ASTs have little competition.

The "collective approach" has bee present since the start of hockey. Last change advantage to the home team only magnifies the fact. So I do not see the eureka moment of EXACTLY!!.

Fact of the matter is that the center is the defensive catalyst setting the tone,dictating the pace, the spacing,the possession from faceoffs - a Carbonneau strength. Also Carbonneau was a RHS, critical when defending Gretzky a LHS on a team with LHS centers since the different looks and timing cause adjustments on alternate offensive shifts. In basketball handedness does not matter on defense. Does for offense - shooting from the baseline favours the outside hand.

Three Selke trophies and multiple high finishes clearly illustrate how good Gut Carbooneau was, how much better than the collective.

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07-25-2013, 09:20 PM
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Numbers and Focus

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The point of the matter is that Bob Gainey and Craig Ramsay were probably pretty close defensively, heck Craig was way better offensively, but the guy who was a member of 6 SC teams is the guy who gets the glory, if they had played on each others team and switched places Craig would be the HHOF guy IMO.
Bob Gainey was a member of 5 SC teams. Accuracy please. The focus of the thread is Guy Carbonneau and centers.

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07-25-2013, 09:33 PM
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The point of the matter is that Bob Gainey and Craig Ramsay were probably pretty close defensively, heck Craig was way better offensively, but the guy who was a member of 6 SC teams is the guy who gets the glory, if they had played on each others team and switched places Craig would be the HHOF guy IMO.
Interesting notion, but nowhere near reality Im afraid. Craig Ramsay was a Poor Mans Bob Gainey Hv. Smart, savvy player, no question, but he lacked Gaineys ambition, the imagination & hutzpah that nothing was impossible, not nearly as intimidating on the ice, and I mean at ice level. Several notches below in fact on the Dr.Jekyll & Mr.Hyde Scale. If he'd been as good as you suggest then guess what? The Canadiens wouldve acquired Ramsay, a treasure trove of rookies & Gainey in exchange for him. Didnt happen, wouldnt happen. Bob Gainey is one of the greatest players to have ever played the game, a Goaltenders Best Friend or Worst Nightmare depending upon on which end of the ice your standing. Ramsay could be but he wasnt nearly as consistently aggressive, and his tool box contained maybe 2/3rds of what Gainey came to work with.

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07-25-2013, 10:03 PM
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Interesting notion, but nowhere near reality Im afraid. Craig Ramsay was a Poor Mans Bob Gainey Hv. Smart, savvy player, no question, but he lacked Gaineys ambition, the imagination & hutzpah that nothing was impossible, not nearly as intimidating on the ice, and I mean at ice level. Several notches below in fact on the Dr.Jekyll & Mr.Hyde Scale. If he'd been as good as you suggest then guess what? The Canadiens wouldve acquired Ramsay, a treasure trove of rookies & Gainey in exchange for him. Didnt happen, wouldnt happen. Bob Gainey is one of the greatest players to have ever played the game, a Goaltenders Best Friend or Worst Nightmare depending upon on which end of the ice your standing. Ramsay could be but he wasnt nearly as consistently aggressive, and his tool box contained maybe 2/3rds of what Gainey came to work with.
Yes Gainey was bigger and moire physical and more intimidating but your post kind a reinforces my point.

If you look at the actual defensive impact of both players, it's pretty close and Ramsey didn't have the big 3 to bail him out either or a guy in net named Ken.

5 SC and Bob is in the HHOF, Craig was probably more the player overall, when you add his offense to his defensive contributions but he still has to buy a ticket.

Too much emphasis is placed on the SC of defensive guys like Guy and Bob when it's highly likely that their support roles would be much diminished (in the eyes of HHOF and historians) had they the misfortune of being drafted by the wrong team.

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07-25-2013, 10:34 PM
  #74
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If you look at the actual defensive impact of both players, it's pretty close and Ramsey didn't have the big 3 to bail him out either or a guy in net named Ken.

5 SC and Bob is in the HHOF, Craig was probably more the player overall, when you add his offense to his defensive contributions but he still has to buy a ticket.

Too much emphasis is placed on the SC of defensive guys like Guy and Bob when it's highly likely that their support roles would be much diminished (in the eyes of HHOF and historians) had they the misfortune of being drafted by the wrong team.
Hey. nothing shabby about the Sabres goaltending, supporting cast. Im not sure what your argument, case might be to to elevate Craig Ramsay above Bob Gainey Hv. I watched them both, closely, as is my wont. Love a defensive forward. Better yet their two way. No way no how was Ramsay in the same class as Bob Gainey. Id rank Gainey above Red Kelly, any number of players. Quite possibly the brightest light Ive ever had the pleasure of watching in terms of two way forwards. He did, performed exactly what I thought a forward should do in tight situations. No fear and no panic. Solid as a rock. Craig Ramsay just wasnt "there". He tried. No question. But his team mates werent biting. Lacked Gaineys leadership qualities amongst other shortcomings. No idea why youd feel Ramsay should be elevated, switched with Gainey, Bob Gaineys accomplishments then downgraded. Like he's a hacker.

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07-25-2013, 11:05 PM
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Hey. nothing shabby about the Sabres goaltending, supporting cast. Im not sure what your argument, case might be to to elevate Craig Ramsay above Bob Gainey Hv. I watched them both, closely, as is my wont. Love a defensive forward. Better yet their two way. No way no how was Ramsay in the same class as Bob Gainey. Id rank Gainey above Red Kelly, any number of players. Quite possibly the brightest light Ive ever had the pleasure of watching in terms of two way forwards. He did, performed exactly what I thought a forward should do in tight situations. No fear and no panic. Solid as a rock. Craig Ramsay just wasnt "there". He tried. No question. But his team mates werent biting. Lacked Gaineys leadership qualities amongst other shortcomings. No idea why youd feel Ramsay should be elevated, switched with Gainey, Bob Gaineys accomplishments then downgraded. Like he's a hacker.
It's not a question of downgrading Gainey, although in a way it is I guess because if he gets drafted by the seals we aren't even having this discussion most likely.

It's more like this

Perception between Gainey and Ramsey

Bob






Craig

the reality, in terms of overall impact an contribution to their teams

Bob
Craig

And a strong argument can be made that their impact is actually pretty even.

The big 3 all got mentioned in the top 40 of the best Dmen of all time and I don't remember any Sabre even coming up for discussion.

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