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OT - Detroit drafting well a myth ??

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07-10-2008, 08:13 AM
  #1
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OT - Detroit drafting well a myth ??

I did that for fun while I was surfing on hockeydb.com. I count out how many players, pts and games played that was recorded from Detroit and Montreal drafted players between 1998 and 2007.

Here's my result :

Detroit

82 drafted players
2243 games played
1172 pts
0,52 pts/game

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

Montreal

88 drafted players
3671 games played
2139 pts
0,58 pts/game

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00006929.html

I know we didn't draft players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg but could we just stop saying that Detroit is good at the draft table ?

Argue !


Last edited by Beakermania*: 07-10-2008 at 01:38 PM.
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07-10-2008, 08:20 AM
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Travis Moen
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It is a myth and there is a lot of luck involved.
If they thought Zetterberg or Datsyuk would be superstars, they would have drafted them in the first or second round. Anything below those rounds is mainly luck.

Detroit is still overally the best managed organization.

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07-10-2008, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Kostopoulos View Post
It is a myth and there is a lot of luck involved.
If they thought Zetterberg or Datsyuk would be superstars, they would have drafted them in the first or second round. Anything below those rounds is mainly luck.

Detroit is still overally the best managed organization.
I agree with that and they play hockey like all 30 teams should play it.

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07-10-2008, 08:30 AM
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Guillemin
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Though they get crapped on a lot, look at the recent drafting history of the Leafs as well. When they keep their picks, they have a shocking record of first round success.

As for the Wings, I don't believe it's luck. You draft guys like Zets and Datsyuk late because they're potential home runs, but not as sure things as earlier rounds. Also, if you know you're the only team that recognizes their potential, then you can take them late with comfort.

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07-10-2008, 08:32 AM
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Hemlor
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You do have to consider that between the years indicated, Detroit was consistently drafting in a very low position. So yes, there is some luck and chance involved, but no, it is not a myth, they do draft very well. It isn't just Zet and Datsuk, they have a lot of players that were drafted 2 round and later. They are the class of the NHL, but luckily it seems the HAbs are modeling their organization after the Wings. Draft well, develop well, and make smart, thoughtful trades.

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07-10-2008, 08:36 AM
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Louis Houde
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Stats wise, it would be unfair to include years 2004,2005,2006,2007,2008.
Give at least 5 years to judge a draft.

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07-10-2008, 08:37 AM
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Uhhh maybe you should check Detroit's average drafting position compared to Montreal's. Kinda left that part out of your expert analysis.

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07-10-2008, 08:43 AM
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Blades 0f Steel
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Between 1998-2007 they've drafted 2 players that were better than anyone we've drafted. As a matter of fact, 3 of their best players during their cup run were drafted in this time span.

Pretty convenient that we've had much higher draft picks too.

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07-10-2008, 08:44 AM
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It has to work both ways......we're praising Timmins for his Kosty Jr. and Halak pick, still we're saying that Detroit got lucky with Datsyuk and those guys...

Sure there has to be luck involve. Still, I don't believe entirely in that as far as those picks. For example, clearly Datsyuk, Zetterberg were not doing enough to warrant a first round pick. They had some great deficiencies in their game. But their scout who has to be the best one in that area, knew their upside more than any other scout who would go there once in a while. So they were pick knowing that they had upside but were also pick that late 'cause they didn't deserve being picked earlier.

Sure you never know if nobody would pick them. And that's the luck factor. But they knew that they had some potential in those guys. They obviously didn't know it would be that much.

And then as far as good who's not, well that's the whole debate. Quality vs quantity. Does producing tons of 4th liners compared to 1 or 2 superstars is better 'cause the numbers are greater. I think that both are important. Still, I would prefer that you're able to draft a player that you'll never be able to get via trade. Having the wisdom to pick Price is more important than all of the quantity of the Lapierre of this world that will always be available via trade or UFA period....

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07-10-2008, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlor View Post
You do have to consider that between the years indicated, Detroit was consistently drafting in a very low position. So yes, there is some luck and chance involved, but no, it is not a myth, they do draft very well. It isn't just Zet and Datsuk, they have a lot of players that were drafted 2 round and later. They are the class of the NHL, but luckily it seems the HAbs are modeling their organization after the Wings. Draft well, develop well, and make smart, thoughtful trades.
Detroit was drafting late in rounds and had not much of first round choice while they were trading hem to get players for the playoffs.

Then here's a look at the players that both teams drafted in second round and later since 1998

Detroit Red Wings :

Datsyuk - 171 overall
Zetterberg - 255 overall
Kopecky - 38 overall
Fillpula - 95 overall
Fleishman - 63 overall
Hudler - 58 overall
Franzen - 97 overall

Montreal Canadiens :

Ryder - 216 overall
Markov - 162 overall
Ribeiro - 45 overall
Plekanec - 71 overall
Halak - 271 overall
Streit - 262 overall
Sergei Kostitsyn - 200 overall
Latendresse - 45 overall

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07-10-2008, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Uhhh maybe you should check Detroit's average drafting position compared to Montreal's. Kinda left that part out of your expert analysis.
As an expert analist, I tell you that if I get a player at 155 and you get a better one at 220 you did better wherever you were in that round. If you really want a player and think that he might get drafted then you trade up to grab him.

So the average drafting position in each round isn't strong enough to say that Detroit was clearly better than Mtl during that period.

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07-10-2008, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyven View Post
Detroit Red Wings :

Datsyuk - 171 overall
Zetterberg - 255 overall
Kopecky - 38 overall
Fillpula - 95 overall
Fleishman - 63 overall
Hudler - 58 overall
Franzen - 97 overall
I'd add Kronwall to them. Yes, he was a first round pick, but he was also passed over in 1999.

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07-10-2008, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
It has to work both ways......we're praising Timmins for his Kosty Jr. and Halak pick, still we're saying that Detroit got lucky with Datsyuk and those guys...

Sure there has to be luck involve. Still, I don't believe entirely in that as far as those picks. For example, clearly Datsyuk, Zetterberg were not doing enough to warrant a first round pick. They had some great deficiencies in their game. But their scout who has to be the best one in that area, knew their upside more than any other scout who would go there once in a while. So they were pick knowing that they had upside but were also pick that late 'cause they didn't deserve being picked earlier.

Sure you never know if nobody would pick them. And that's the luck factor. But they knew that they had some potential in those guys. They obviously didn't know it would be that much.

And then as far as good who's not, well that's the whole debate. Quality vs quantity. Does producing tons of 4th liners compared to 1 or 2 superstars is better 'cause the numbers are greater. I think that both are important. Still, I would prefer that you're able to draft a player that you'll never be able to get via trade. Having the wisdom to pick Price is more important than all of the quantity of the Lapierre of this world that will always be available via trade or UFA period....
I agree with you and I don't believe eather that those 2 guys were picked by luck.

But the overall look of Detroit drafts since 98 looks more like they are trying more than any other team to hit homeruns, while Mtl may tried to find NHLer first and then if they developp them well, might turn as homeruns.

What you think ?

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07-10-2008, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Garo View Post
I'd add Kronwall to them. Yes, he was a first round pick, but he was also passed over in 1999.
Ok, I didn't know that. thx

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07-10-2008, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyven View Post
I did that for fun while I was surfing on hockeydb.com. I count out how many players, pts and games played that was recorded from Detroit and Montreal drafted players between 1998 and 2007.

Here's my result :

Detroit

82 drafted players
2243 games played
1172 pts
0,52 pts/game

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

Montreal

88 drafted players
3671 games played
2139 pts
0,58 pts/game

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00006929.html

I know we didn't draft players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg but could we just stop saying that Detroit is good at the draft table ?

Argue !
Don't forget that the Wings have traded away early picks in a lot of drafts in the process of adding players at the deadline or during the season. The last 4-5 years the Habs are above the top drafting teams also despite not getting top 5 picks every year like Pittsburgh, Atlanta and Ottawa did for 4-5 year stretches.

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07-10-2008, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Louis Houde View Post
Stats wise, it would be unfair to include years 2004,2005,2006,2007,2008.
Give at least 5 years to judge a draft.
But as we compared both teams in the same period of time then it is fair. Qu'est-ce t'en penses ?

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07-10-2008, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Don't forget that the Wings have traded away early picks in a lot of drafts in the process of adding players at the deadline or during the season. The last 4-5 years the Habs are above the top drafting teams also despite not getting top 5 picks every year like Pittsburgh, Atlanta and Ottawa did for 4-5 year stretches.
Yeah i did pointed it out, check post number 10

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07-10-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlor View Post
You do have to consider that between the years indicated, Detroit was consistently drafting in a very low position. So yes, there is some luck and chance involved, but no, it is not a myth, they do draft very well. It isn't just Zet and Datsuk, they have a lot of players that were drafted 2 round and later. They are the class of the NHL, but luckily it seems the HAbs are modeling their organization after the Wings. Draft well, develop well, and make smart, thoughtful trades.
No the Habs are being model on the pre-90's habs. Which encompasses much of what has been said here.

We are building this team the way we built in the 70's and espacially the way we built in the early 80's.

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07-10-2008, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom Kostopoulos View Post
It is a myth and there is a lot of luck involved.
If they thought Zetterberg or Datsyuk would be superstars, they would have drafted them in the first or second round. Anything below those rounds is mainly luck.

Detroit is still overally the best managed organization.
Thats always been my thoughts as well. They fluked out on those late round gems. If they truly saw star potential in those players when they were drafted, they wouldnt have waited so long.

BUT what they do certainly have is a great development method. But you can also point out that their early round drafting hasnt been very good, and that they certainly dont grow a lot of players to the NHL level, only a few very good ones.

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07-10-2008, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by goliath5151 View Post
BUT what they do certainly have is a great development method. But you can also point out that their early round drafting hasnt been very good, and that they certainly dont grow a lot of players to the NHL level, only a few very good ones.
Huh? Their last top pick that busted was Grigorenko, and his accident had a lot to do with it.

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07-10-2008, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyven View Post
Detroit was drafting late in rounds and had not much of first round choice while they were trading hem to get players for the playoffs.

Then here's a look at the players that both teams drafted in second round and later since 1998

Detroit Red Wings :

Datsyuk - 171 overall
Zetterberg - 255 overall
Kopecky - 38 overall
Fillpula - 95 overall
Fleishman - 63 overall
Hudler - 58 overall
Franzen - 97 overall

Montreal Canadiens :

Ryder - 216 overall
Markov - 162 overall
Ribeiro - 45 overall
Plekanec - 71 overall
Halak - 271 overall
Streit - 262 overall
Sergei Kostitsyn - 200 overall
Latendresse - 45 overall

That's pretty close in overall quality and quantity.

Can't wait to see what the comparison will look like in 5 years though.

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07-10-2008, 09:39 AM
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Blades 0f Steel
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Originally Posted by keyven View Post
But as we compared both teams in the same period of time then it is fair. Qu'est-ce t'en penses ?
Since there's no telling how those players will turn out, no. It's not fair in the slightest.

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07-10-2008, 09:47 AM
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You do have to consider that between the years indicated, Detroit was consistently drafting in a very low position. So yes, there is some luck and chance involved, but no, it is not a myth, they do draft very well.
+ 1.

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07-10-2008, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyven View Post
I did that for fun while I was surfing on hockeydb.com. I count out how many players, pts and games played that was recorded from Detroit and Montreal drafted players between 1998 and 2007.

Here's my result :

Detroit

82 drafted players
2243 games played
1172 pts
0,52 pts/game

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

Montreal

88 drafted players
3671 games played
2139 pts
0,58 pts/game

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00006929.html

I know we didn't draft players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg but could we just stop saying that Detroit is good at the draft table ?

Argue !
You're not taking into account draft position.
If you use an "expected success rate per pick" then they become much more impressive.

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07-10-2008, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyven View Post
I did that for fun while I was surfing on hockeydb.com. I count out how many players, pts and games played that was recorded from Detroit and Montreal drafted players between 1998 and 2007.

Here's my result :

Detroit

82 drafted players
2243 games played
1172 pts
0,52 pts/game

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

Montreal

88 drafted players
3671 games played
2139 pts
0,58 pts/game

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00006929.html

I know we didn't draft players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg but could we just stop saying that Detroit is good at the draft table ?

Argue !
Look at all the stars they got in late rounds. I would take that draft record in a second...they also traded a lot of first round picks to get players to win a cup or two.

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