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Byfuglien, Bogosian, Wheeler

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Old
07-25-2013, 08:37 PM
  #126
Hank Chinaski
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
need st louis perspectives... its kinda sketch when only jets fans are liking that trade on here, I cant adequately comment on it because I dont follow the blues
You can't be serious. He just gave you a complete run-down of how that's a good comparable of Buff's value based on the Burns trade.

Talk to ten different Jets fans, they'll give you ten different opinions of Buff's value. Talk to ten different Blues fans, they'll give you ten different opinions on whether or not that's a worthwhile trade. Instead of getting caught up in something as subjective as fan opinion, why not acknowledge some of the facts that have been presented?

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07-25-2013, 10:18 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
The existing proposal was in the other thread. You keep bringing it up like it was a personal insult to you.

Which post did I deflect about Toronto? I am more than willing to address it.

If you ABOSOLUTELY must know what i think his value is, I would put it at a Top 6 Forward, a Top 4 D, and a 1st to 2nd Round pick depending on the value of the players provided. Feel free to insert whatever players you think fit that scenario. What would you put Phaneuf's value at?
And you honestly dont think thats an overpayment? dion isnt even worth much, a defensive top 4 d and a 1st maximum, I dont even know if we could get that

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07-25-2013, 10:20 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
You can't be serious. He just gave you a complete run-down of how that's a good comparable of Buff's value based on the Burns trade.

Talk to ten different Jets fans, they'll give you ten different opinions of Buff's value. Talk to ten different Blues fans, they'll give you ten different opinions on whether or not that's a worthwhile trade. Instead of getting caught up in something as subjective as fan opinion, why not acknowledge some of the facts that have been presented?
well now the value is conflicting... sean says hes worth a top 6, top 4 1st and a second which is worth even more then the blues proposal in my opinion, I get that jaden is good but im not going to come out here and say that I definitively know/follow his minor league developments/projections... how is that fair to me exactly?

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07-25-2013, 10:38 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
well now the value is conflicting... sean says hes worth a top 6, top 4 1st and a second which is worth even more then the blues proposal in my opinion, I get that jaden is good but im not going to come out here and say that I definitively know/follow his minor league developments/projections... how is that fair to me exactly?
You really need to learn how to read. I did not say a first and a second. There is also a big difference between a soon to be UFA and a guy signed for multiple seasons. Then there is the obvious fact that Buff > Phaneuf.

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07-25-2013, 10:40 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
And you honestly dont think thats an overpayment? dion isnt even worth much, a defensive top 4 d and a 1st maximum, I dont even know if we could get that
You need to run that past your pals in the phaneuf thread then. They seem to think that a package centered around him will get you Weber lol.

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07-25-2013, 10:42 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
need st louis perspectives... its kinda sketch when only jets fans are liking that trade on here, I cant adequately comment on it because I dont follow the blues
its not really about what fans like is it? I'm not basing this on fan opinion, i'm basing it on evidence and historical precident.

Buf IS VERY similar to burns in most statistical ways and would therefore be worth the same (as far as i know neither carry significant baggage besides the rumors of buffs weight which were started by a, lets face it, hockey buzz writer). That IS what burns returned.

obviously fans won't like it as st louis has no need for a player like buff.


...and only one winnipeg fan commented on liking it, so it would be nice if you'd refrain from the broad brush generalities.


there's a saying that accurately surmises this situation. Something to do with equestrians and hydration.....

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07-25-2013, 10:43 PM
  #132
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Also my proposal is not far off value wise when compared to the STL and NYR proposals on the previous page

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07-25-2013, 10:48 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeyg View Post
well now the value is conflicting... sean says hes worth a top 6, top 4 1st and a second which is worth even more then the blues proposal in my opinion, I get that jaden is good but im not going to come out here and say that I definitively know/follow his minor league developments/projections... how is that fair to me exactly?

you don't have too... as if you recall i said this was based of HF boards listing which (if you had read carefully) i had previously said we were assuming as gospel.

the whole point of the exercise was to remove opinion. this wasn't something up for interpretation. that IS what burns returned. byfuglien IS very similar to burns. therefor the "worth" in this hypothetical situation IS very similar to the Burns trade... unless you want to get in depth on "the market" of player types and abilities at any given time int he league i don't know how i could have made it anymore objective.

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Old
07-26-2013, 01:10 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
You really need to learn how to read. I did not say a first and a second. There is also a big difference between a soon to be UFA and a guy signed for multiple seasons. Then there is the obvious fact that Buff > Phaneuf.
come on now, I like how you say its ME whos talking about overall, buff is better offensively then dion right now but overall... I personally dont think so. For offense, its ok to just look at offensive production, but overall its definitely more then that. For overall you need to look at norris voting, quality of comp, + - to a small extent, zone starts etc etc.

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07-26-2013, 01:11 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
its not really about what fans like is it? I'm not basing this on fan opinion, i'm basing it on evidence and historical precident.

Buf IS VERY similar to burns in most statistical ways and would therefore be worth the same (as far as i know neither carry significant baggage besides the rumors of buffs weight which were started by a, lets face it, hockey buzz writer). That IS what burns returned.

obviously fans won't like it as st louis has no need for a player like buff.


...and only one winnipeg fan commented on liking it, so it would be nice if you'd refrain from the broad brush generalities.


there's a saying that accurately surmises this situation. Something to do with equestrians and hydration.....
what are you talking about? im not going to be ignorant and comment on the st louis situation because I know they value jaden very highly but I dont know the extent.... the best thing would be for neutral 3rd party fans to weigh in on it

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07-26-2013, 01:12 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
you don't have too... as if you recall i said this was based of HF boards listing which (if you had read carefully) i had previously said we were assuming as gospel.

the whole point of the exercise was to remove opinion. this wasn't something up for interpretation. that IS what burns returned. byfuglien IS very similar to burns. therefor the "worth" in this hypothetical situation IS very similar to the Burns trade... unless you want to get in depth on "the market" of player types and abilities at any given time int he league i don't know how i could have made it anymore objective.
yes but by that same logic it wouldnt be fair for you to just value it by yourself and to exclude st louis fans.... it should be a third party who evaluates it

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07-26-2013, 01:43 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanahue View Post
I would say the most frustrating part is that he keeps pointing fingers at people while being wrong time and time again. That being said, it's been interesting .

There is an entire page of posts showing him exactly where he's been wrong and he just replied with "ok ok hold on lets flip the page here and make it more fair"
It's actually quite hilarious. I mean a proposal of Franson+1st isn't that bad, and even if you viewed it as bad, it's not something you whine about in a different thread for 5 pages about.

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07-26-2013, 02:34 AM
  #138
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As a neutral fan (Canucks) I can honestly say I hate the Leafs based on MikeyGs logic.It is all over the place with no consistency. Laughable actually. It's too bad to throw an entire organization into one post. But sorry Leafs fans.

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07-26-2013, 03:06 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by hockeytalk21 View Post
As a neutral fan (Canucks) I can honestly say I hate the Leafs based on MikeyGs logic.It is all over the place with no consistency. Laughable actually. It's too bad to throw an entire organization into one post. But sorry Leafs fans.
Your opinion is invalid because of your low post count

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07-26-2013, 03:12 AM
  #140
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That's the problem with posters who don't even try to educate themselves before trying to discuss something. When I discuss things, I try to be as objective and analytical as I can. I do this so I can make an educated argument.

There is alot of posters on here that dont believe that Buffis as good as we say he is, for whatever reason. Whether that be because he's a bigger dude or that he plays bad Defense. I would urge the posters on this board to use a tiny bit of logic before snagging a piece of gossip and running with it. Let us ask ourselves this....is it even possible for a guy like Dustin Byfuglien who plays top pairing minutes, and does practises on top of that to actually weigh 302lbs? Honestly? Especially when he came to camp at 260. There is no way that somehow gained 40 pounds with that amount of exercise. No way, unless he has health issues in which case it's not his fault anyways.

Does he play bad D? While I admit that he is much more of an offense first DMan...he's not used in a shut down role anyways. Offensive DMen seldom are, but that doesn't mean that he can't play D. If you watched the Jets play, you would see that Buff was actually very solid in his own end and really got caught pinching at the wrong time.

The upside is that he did keep the play in the offensive zone very effectively...but it's a point that is constantly ignored. Buff plays tough Comp in the Ozone and beats it, and hardly has to play in his own zone...so does it matter that he's not a high level shut down player like Smid?

No.

Buff has his job, and he does it well...just don't give him DZone starts against really tough comp. that's not his job. You wouldn't do it to Phil Kessel, yet no one *****es about him not playing D. Why? Because its not his job.

This thread has gone on for pages an pages where I see Jets fans counterin arguments with facts and statistics and a Leaf fan countering by saying well...cuz.

You don't know. You don't watch our games. You didn't bother to check what other similar players have been traded for. You didn't read the stats sheet or do any digging what so ever and as a result you've made yourself look kind of silly.

I ran into the same thing on the main board. I was discussing the Jets playoff chances vs Dallas...and the response I got was...well I don't need to explain myself because everybody knows that Dallas is better.

I'm open to discussing anything with anybody...but make sure you come to the table prepared and know what you are talking about. I happen to pride the Jets fan base on being very factual and using actual stats to rate effectiveness of our players.

To answer the question about what Im expecting in return for hose three players...Crosby or Stamkos. Pretty simple.

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07-26-2013, 03:13 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Kesler2Burrows View Post
Your opinion is invalid because of your low post count
And he actually said that earlier...which is ridiculous.

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07-26-2013, 03:14 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Kesler2Burrows View Post
Your opinion is invalid because of your low post count
Low post count just means he rather take in the stupidity from a distance.

Also i like how so many Jets players are on the good side of these >>>, Looks like the West got screwed over when a weak team like Detroit we're replaced with the powerhouse that is Winnipeg.

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07-26-2013, 03:31 AM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OverWatch View Post
Low post count just means he rather take in the stupidity from a distance.

Also i like how so many Jets players are on the good side of these >>>, Looks like the West got screwed over when a weak team like Detroit we're replaced with the powerhouse that is Winnipeg.

Look out >>> are you coming for you.
yes because having 7 good core players with NHL experience = powerhouse

and there's been plenty of agreement with other teams fans over value for some of those 7 players

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Old
07-26-2013, 03:42 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by OverWatch View Post
Low post count just means he rather take in the stupidity from a distance.

Also i like how so many Jets players are on the good side of these >>>, Looks like the West got screwed over when a weak team like Detroit we're replaced with the powerhouse that is Winnipeg.
It's not our fault that it's true though, and you can't expect us Jets fans to take under valuing our best players lightly.

Wheeler is a better player then JVR. He has a much more complete game, has speed and size and great skills with the
Puck.

Bogosian is a great shut down defender who is by far better then Liles...who is crap.

Big buff is buff...I mean people have opinions about him, he has alot of value.

You may not agree, but we are not the only fan base that does this, every team does. And it's going to happen to the tenth degree when people constantly undervalue our players when they constantly fail to watch our team play.

Yet...they have somehow formed an opinion, without watching a game. Interesting.

It's like...well it's Winnipeg and they haven't had a team in awhile, so they don't really know they are talkin anyways. It's like people thought we forgot about hockey or something.

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07-26-2013, 03:49 AM
  #145
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So I'm just going to try and Ignore most of the argument and look at value for Buff. As an Anaheim fan I am pretty sure you guys would have wanted Ryan but seeing as he is gone and reading that you guys wanted a 4LD a top 6 RW and a good goalie/goalie Prospect, I might offer a deal around Palmieri (who out scored Silfverberg who was the centerpiece for Ryan) Allen (more for Cap release for us but also fills the LD) and Anderson (high end Goalie prospect). I'd offer up Ottawas 1st instead of the goalie or Palmieri. Adjust as needed.

Flame away.

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07-26-2013, 07:22 AM
  #146
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Oh look, Leafs fans going after anything Jets fans say.

How utterly predictable from the Centre of the Universe.

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07-26-2013, 08:02 AM
  #147
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A deal around Gorges and Louis Leblanc and a 1rst round pick for Bogosian could work maybe

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07-26-2013, 09:21 AM
  #148
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A deal around Gorges and Louis Leblanc and a 1rst round pick for Bogosian could work maybe
For who? Surely not the Jets.

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07-26-2013, 09:22 AM
  #149
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Even after the warning... this is nothing but a pissing match. It's just not needed for the thread.

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