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07-28-2013, 12:04 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
I doubt the City Council wants MSG V to be outside of NYC. Where I think this is all going is that in 10 years when MSG Inc applies for a permit extension, the City Council will go, "Sure, but only if you allow us to discontinue the tax break".
I think it's best if these politicians don't try to play chicken with anyone who has clout within MSG. Unless they want a hockey and basketball team to join two NY football team on the outskirts of NYC, then sure.

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07-28-2013, 12:18 AM
  #127
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I doubt the City Council wants MSG V to be outside of NYC. Where I think this is all going is that in 10 years when MSG Inc applies for a permit extension, the City Council will go, "Sure, but only if you allow us to discontinue the tax break".
And wouldn't MSG then just threaten to move?

If the city wants to discontinue the tax break, then they should at least help pay for MSG V.

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07-28-2013, 01:54 AM
  #128
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I think it's best if these politicians don't try to play chicken with anyone who has clout within MSG. Unless they want a hockey and basketball team to join two NY football team on the outskirts of NYC, then sure.
Call their bluff, that's how they got the tax break in the first place (threats to play outside of NYC). MSG does not deserve to skip paying property tax. The initial plan under Koch was supposed to last 10 years, but it's gone on indefinitely.

Dolan should pay property tax like anyone else. It's welfare for the rich. 300 million they didn't pay between 1982 and 2007. Roughly ~17 million this year that Dolan got to pocket.

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If the city wants to discontinue the tax break, then they should at least help pay for MSG V.
No. MSG shouldn't be given a dime. If I don't pay my property tax, the city doesn't help pay for me to build a new home/business. MSG is a profitable publicly listed company, property tax is the cost of doing business, just like everyone else.

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07-28-2013, 01:56 AM
  #129
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Well at least if they have to rebuild MSG they can rebuild it with more room for a European sized ice rink.

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07-28-2013, 02:21 AM
  #130
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Kansas City Rangers?


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07-28-2013, 04:13 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Parker McDonald View Post
And wouldn't MSG then just threaten to move?

If the city wants to discontinue the tax break, then they should at least help pay for MSG V.
MSG can't leave the city. Their entire brand is built on being in midtown Manhattan. They wouldn't be anywhere near the financial force that they are if they were located elsewhere.

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07-28-2013, 12:52 PM
  #132
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How about making it functional for 600,000+ commuters who come through the station every day? No one is talking about rebuilding the original station, the idea is to expand the station that's operating at over 250% capacity and getting even more busy.
Seems to be the more important factor to these clowns (Quinn and the city council) is the aesthetics is the priority and the capabilities/functionality is secondary.

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07-28-2013, 12:56 PM
  #133
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I don't really know. I just think that the most famous arena in the world should you know, look good. Not like a 3-year old's block sculpture.
I don't go to games to admire the architecture. A winning team is more important. The interior is more important. However, not the looks. Ease of getting around, bathroom lines, concession lines, and efficiency are more important. I HATE the new Giants Stadium. However, not because it looks bland as many complain. I hate it, because it is a pain in the butt to get to my seats in the upper deck. In the old stadium, they had escalators to each deck. Now, I can either take an escalator, then walk to and try to find a second batch of escalators. Or, I can just walk up to the 3rd deck. About 10 flights of stairs. I understand why they did what they did. Want people to walk around and pass the retail and concession stands hoping I will buy something, but I never buy anything at games.

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07-28-2013, 01:00 PM
  #134
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Call their bluff, that's how they got the tax break in the first place (threats to play outside of NYC). MSG does not deserve to skip paying property tax. The initial plan under Koch was supposed to last 10 years, but it's gone on indefinitely.

Dolan should pay property tax like anyone else. It's welfare for the rich. 300 million they didn't pay between 1982 and 2007. Roughly ~17 million this year that Dolan got to pocket.



No. MSG shouldn't be given a dime. If I don't pay my property tax, the city doesn't help pay for me to build a new home/business. MSG is a profitable publicly listed company, property tax is the cost of doing business, just like everyone else.
There are other taxes generated at MSG that far outweigh the real estate tax. Employee payroll, income for the corporation, sales tax at the concession/souvenir stands, sales tax on the tickets. The $17MM for MSG is the equivalent to that $300 refund everyone got under Bush about 12-13 years ago as a "stimulus". Nice for everyone to receive, but not making much of a difference for most people.

Secondly, when I go to a game, I drive in. I enter Manhattan at the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. That is revenue for the city. I eat dinner (or lunch) near MSG which helps local businesses and also generates taxes for the city. The presence of MSG also increases the property values of the nearby buildings, which increases the taxes on those buildings.

Point is, there is a reason MSG gets the tax break as in the end is still profitable for the city to do so.


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07-28-2013, 01:19 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
There are other taxes generated at MSG that far outweigh the real estate tax. Employee payroll, income for the corporation, sales tax at the concession/souvenir stands, sales tax on the tickets. The $17MM for MSG is the equivalent to that $300 refund everyone got under Bush about 12-13 years ago as a "stimulus". Nice for everyone to receive, but not making much of a difference for most people.

Secondly, when I go to a game, I drive in. I enter Manhattan at the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. That is revenue for the city. I eat dinner (or lunch) near MSG which helps local businesses and also generates taxes for the city. The presence of MSG also increases the property values of the nearby buildings, which increases the taxes on those buildings.

Point is, there is a reason MSG gets the tax break as in the end is still profitable for the city to do so.
I'm staggered at the notion that people think Dolan/MSG shouldn't pay property tax or that it doesn't matter.

3/4 of the tax bases you used as an example are taxes paid by the employees who work there, or us, the consumer. Dolan and Co. should not be given a check for 17 million/year to operate, especially since MSG did it's best to kill the Westside Stadium (potential competition). It doesn't matter how much anyone spends near, around, or because they go to MSG. Should the stupid M&M Times Square Store not pay property tax, b/c tourists come there, spend money, and spend in the neighborhood?

It shouldn't matter if it's 17 dollars or 17 million, but the latter is a HUGE amount of money. For a larger context, MSG hasn't paid for over 360 million in property taxes since 1982.

But hey, maybe you prefer MSG making more money for it's shareholders and 11.5 million to settle sexual harassment lawsuits, instead of paying teachers/firemen/police and other essential city services. We shouldn't try to rationalize why a profitable corporation should abide by a different set of rules compared to many similar businesses.

This is an absolute no brainer, and how we've been conditioned to ignore when rich corporations get special deals that the rest of the populace would kill for. The city does not support the tax break, but it's been nearly impossible to get rid of, as it's controlled by the State (and MSG has lobbied VERY hard to keep it in place).


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07-28-2013, 01:28 PM
  #136
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When the City Council in 10 years asks MSG Inc to start paying property taxes what is Dolan going to do? Up and move out of NYC? To save what amounts to about $11m a year today? Not a chance. He can cross his arms and say a deal is a deal, but the City Council is going to say fine no permit for you. Then Dolan would be saddled with an 18,000 seat arena he can't use, fans will start complaining, and MSG Inc is going to look like the bad guy for refusing to pay taxes because of an outdated agreement made 30 years ago. MSG Inc is going to start paying property taxes in 10 years. They'll get another 10 year extension, and so on. Eventually when the building is 10 years away from being outdated, they'll get another 10 year extension while working with the City Council to relocate elsewhere in Manhattan.


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07-28-2013, 01:28 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by frozenrubber View Post
I'm staggered at the notion that people think Dolan/MSG shouldn't pay property tax or that it doesn't matter.

3/4 of the tax bases you used as an example are taxes paid by the employees who work there, or us, the consumer. Dolan and Co. should not be given a check for 17 million/year to operate, especially since MSG did it's best to kill the Westside Stadium (potential competition). It doesn't matter how much anyone spends near, around, or because they go to MSG. Should the stupid M&M Times Square Store not pay property tax, b/c tourists come there, spend money, and spend in the neighborhood?

It shouldn't matter if it's 17 dollars or 17 million, but the latter is a HUGE amount of money. For a larger context, MSG hasn't paid for over 360 million in property taxes since 1982.

But hey, maybe you prefer MSG making more money for it's shareholders and 11.5 million to settle sexual harassment lawsuits, instead of paying teachers/firemen/police and other essential city services. We shouldn't try to rationalize why a profitable corporation should abide by a different set of rules compared to many similar businesses.

This is an absolute no brainer, and how we've been conditioned to ignore when rich corporations get special deals that the rest of the populace would kill for. The city does not support the tax break, but it's been nearly impossible to get rid of, as it's controlled by the State (and MSG has lobbied VERY hard to keep it in place).
Your last paragraph is simple to explain... People will let ownership get away with murder because they don't want something that brings them a huge amount of pleasure, pro sports teams, to go away. Losing a sports team is like losing a loved one.

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07-28-2013, 01:28 PM
  #138
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First off, doesn't matter to the city who is paying the taxes. If MSG had to pay Real Estate Tax, the employees would still be paying payroll/income tax and we would still be paying sales tax. Municipalities cut deals with companies all the time when they deem the company's presence to be beneficial. They also give abatements for developers all the time. Remember when it got out that A-Rod wasn't paying real estate taxes on his condo? Of course, the media failed to mention that he wasn't paying taxes because it was due to a deal the city made with the builder. Gave the tax abatement on the high-end condo, thus making it more marketable, in exchange for also building some low-to-modest income buildings.

The M&M store is not a good comparison. Do people come to NY just for the M&M store? I doubt it. If the M&M store was located in Hell's Kitchen or Harlem, would as many people visit? Doubt it. They opened in Times Square BECAUSE that is where the tourists flock. If the former owners had moved the teams to the Meadowlands there would be a direct hit to the finances of the area. If the M&M store closes and re-opens in Jersey City, it will not have an impact on the surrounding area.

Secondly, does M&M-Mars actually own that building or are they tenants?


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07-28-2013, 01:37 PM
  #139
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Your last paragraph is simple to explain... People will let ownership get away with murder because they don't want something that brings them a huge amount of pleasure, pro sports teams, to go away. Losing a sports team is like losing a loved one.
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The M&M store is not a good comparison. Do people come to NY just for the M&M store? I doubt it. If the M&M store was located in Hell's Kitchen or Harlem, would as many people visit? Doubt it. They opened in Times Square BECAUSE that is where the tourists flock. If the former owners had moved the teams to the Meadowlands there would be a direct hit to the finances of the area. If the M&M store closes and re-opens in Jersey City, it will not have an impact on the surrounding area.
This is where I believe we don't see eye to eye, causing the difference in opinion.

Do you honestly think MSG is going to leave Manhattan? MSG doesn't need a carrot to be in NYC. It needs NYC to fill all of it's dates. It's a mutual benefit to both, and MSG should pay it's proper taxes like every other NYC business.

No one is taking away MSG and putting it in NJ, so don't buy into that nonsense.

If one wants to have a larger discussion about city subsidized sports, go for it, my opinions there aren't as concrete as this situation. MSG is very profitable and does not need taxpayer support, no matter what excuses we make for them.

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07-28-2013, 01:37 PM
  #140
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When the City Council in 10 years asks MSG Inc to start paying property taxes what is Dolan going to do? Up and move out of NYC? To save what amounts to about $11m a year today? Not a chance. He can cross his arms and say a deal is a deal, but the City Council is going to say fine no permit for you. Then Dolan would be saddled with an 18,000 seat arena he can't use, fans will start complaining, and MSG Inc is going to look like the bad guy for refusing to pay taxes because of an outdated agreement made 30 years ago. MSG Inc is going to start paying property taxes in 10 years. They'll get another 10 year extension, and so on. Eventually when the building is 10 years away from being outdated, they'll get another 10 year extension while working with the City Council to relocate elsewhere in Manhattan.
There will be a lot more than property tax at issue if they try to force MSG out. They will be fighting over "fair-market" value of the building, the land where the new garden will be located, any improvements to mass transit at the new location, and of course, the tax break.

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07-28-2013, 01:39 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post

Secondly, does M&M-Mars actually own that building or are they tenants?
Quick side note, doesn't matter if you are a tenant or building owner, whatever property taxes paid would be passed through (although usually not as a line item) and reflected in the rent/lease accordingly.

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07-28-2013, 01:42 PM
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Also, if you think that $17MM would actually come out of Dolan's pocket each year, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. They will either increase prices, cut employee salaries, or eliminate positions/services. I always laugh at people who think the answer to everything is to raise taxes on big businesses/corporations. Raise Verizon's taxes an additional $25MM per year and they will simply increase the cost of their services. So yes, WE will be paying that $17MM in property taxes each year.

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07-28-2013, 01:45 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Also, if you think that $17MM would actually come out of Dolan's pocket each year, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. They will either increase prices, cut employee salaries, or eliminate positions/services. I always laugh at people who think the answer to everything is to raise taxes on big businesses/corporations. Raise Verizon's taxes an additional $25MM per year and they will simply increase the cost of their services. So yes, WE will be paying that $17MM in property taxes each year.
It's the cost of doing business. You've been sold this "job-creator" BS hook, line, and sinker. No one is imposing an extra tax just on MSG, it's the same tax that EVERYONE else pays.

Same rules for everyone, regardless of whatever excuses they use.

And if MSG raises prices, you as a consumer have a choice, and no one is forcing you to buy anything. I don't seek to dissolve this tax break because they are profitable, I seek to have it removed as they shouldn't have it.

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07-28-2013, 01:47 PM
  #144
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Quick side note, doesn't matter if you are a tenant or building owner, whatever property taxes paid would be passed through (although usually not as a line item) and reflected in the rent/lease accordingly.
I am aware of that, but again that is not the point. If the building had a tax abatement that all of a sudden expired, the money is not coming out of the building owner's pocket. They will raise rent and the renter will in-turn either raise their prices or shut down. Raising prices hurts the customers. Having the business shut down is not good for obviously the building owner or the surrounding area.

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07-28-2013, 01:48 PM
  #145
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It's the cost of doing business. You've been sold this "job-creator" BS hook, line, and sinker. No one is imposing an extra tax just on MSG, it's the same tax that EVERYONE else pays.

Same rules for everyone, regardless of whatever excuses they use.
But, that is exactly it. Rules are NOT the same for everyone. Not in any walk of life are the rules the same for everyone.

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07-28-2013, 01:52 PM
  #146
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There will be a lot more than property tax at issue if they try to force MSG out. They will be fighting over "fair-market" value of the building, the land where the new garden will be located, any improvements to mass transit at the new location, and of course, the tax break.
I don't think they're trying to force MSG out anytime soon. By extending the permit 10 years (and not perpetually like MSG Inc asked for) it at least gives the City leverage when they ask MSG Inc to start paying property tax. What is MSG Inc going to do, say no? Fine, then they don't get the permit. Then what? If you're MSG Inc, is it worth the headache to say no? Any threats to move out of the city in this day and age are simply empty threats, especially if the contention is over something as small as $11m in property tax per year.

The City wants the property tax revenue, in addition to everything else they're getting currently from MSG Inc. They aren't in a position to ask for it if they award MSG Inc a perpetual permit. That's the only point I'm trying to make. To think that MSG currently has the city by the balls, they don't. MSG Inc wants to stay in Manhattan. Especially after dumping $1b into renovations, an investment that probably won't pay itself back for at least another 20 years.


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07-28-2013, 01:55 PM
  #147
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But, that is exactly it. Rules are NOT the same for everyone. Not in any walk of life are the rules the same for everyone.
You can move the goalposts all you want. Nothing in this world will even be truly equal, and no one expects that. But this is a slamdunk for ease of resolution, and doing the right thing for every citizen of NYC.

If you don't care and are fatalistic about this ridiculous policy, you have every right to be. I just pray to god there are others who give a damn and haven't fallen for this "what's the use trying". There's no public take over of MSG and collectivizing the company. Pay the same taxes and rules as your neighbor, and continue your profitable business.

Most of this is now coming off as an Internet board pissing contest, but I feel I've made my case, and feel free to elaborate further if you have more to add.

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07-28-2013, 05:08 PM
  #148
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It's the cost of doing business. You've been sold this "job-creator" BS hook, line, and sinker. No one is imposing an extra tax just on MSG, it's the same tax that EVERYONE else pays.
So when are we getting those robots to man the concession stands? Robot security guards too? Unless, you know, Dolan plans on hiring humans to fill those jobs. And you can't really have those jobs without an arena.

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07-28-2013, 06:30 PM
  #149
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You can move the goalposts all you want. Nothing in this world will even be truly equal, and no one expects that. But this is a slamdunk for ease of resolution, and doing the right thing for every citizen of NYC.
Mob rule.... Go Mob!!!

It would seem that people always vote with their pocket book, and elected politicians are more than happy to buy those votes.

If you wanted to make things truly fair, then there should be no deals for anyone. Period.

No tax breaks for start-ups.
No tax breaks for professional sports teams.
No tax breaks for anyone.

Might as well throw rent control in there while you are at it, because the people who come out ahead as a result of rent control are just as guilty as Dolan is... Getting a subsidy while someone else pays the bills.

Because in the end, if you need to give tax breaks to certain classes of people or employers, you better be looking at your tax structure, because it's probably too high.

Quote:
If you don't care and are fatalistic about this ridiculous policy, you have every right to be. I just pray to god there are others who give a damn and haven't fallen for this "what's the use trying". There's no public take over of MSG and collectivizing the company. Pay the same taxes and rules as your neighbor, and continue your profitable business.
It will continue until politicians become statesmen, and do the right thing. And I have little faith that back-room deals will ever go away.

Paramount (who I believe owned the Garden at the time the 1982 deal was made), entered into contract with the City for the tax break and an energy subsidy as long as the Knicks and the Rangers play their home games at Madison Square Garden. Time for the City to live up to the poor deal it made, just like the NBA did with the Silna brothers. You made a bad deal. Live with it.

I wonder how different Manhattan would be if the Rangers and Knicks actually did move to the Meadowlands back in 1982... We say that nobody would leave NYC... But back then, people were leaving in droves.

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07-28-2013, 06:31 PM
  #150
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So when are we getting those robots to man the concession stands? Robot security guards too? Unless, you know, Dolan plans on hiring humans to fill those jobs. And you can't really have those jobs without an arena.
I would get my beer a lot quicker if it came from a vending machine.... Who says all robots are bad?

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