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Bure's 58 goals in 99-2000

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Old
07-25-2013, 11:55 AM
  #1
intylerwetrust
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Bure's 58 goals in 99-2000

Where does it rank all-time? Could it be considered as the greatest individual "goal scoring" season ever?

Considering he scored 58:

a) in 74 games
b) in a very low scoring era
c) with poor linemates on a crappy Panthers team

pro-rated:

82/74 gp x 58 goals = 64.3 goals

GPG ratio (81-82/99-00 season) = 6.952/4.505 x 64.3 goals = 99.2 goals


Just imagine if he had Oates at centre in the early 90s.


Last edited by intylerwetrust: 07-25-2013 at 12:57 PM.
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07-25-2013, 12:51 PM
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ot92s
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check out hockey-reference.com's adjusted goals. http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ed_season.html

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07-25-2013, 12:57 PM
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DisgruntledGoat
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I'd find it more impressive if he had bothered to go back into his own zone, like, once that season.

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07-25-2013, 01:36 PM
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quoipourquoi
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Horribly overrated. Maybe not even his best.

First of all, only 49 of them actually went past a goalie, as 9 of them were into an empty net. Compare that to (shock, awe) Teemu Selanne in 1998, who scored 50+2 goals in 73 GP two years earlier in an even lower-scoring league. And Selanne had a better pace without Kariya, so there's no guarantee that Bure would have done better with different linemates, since isolation from quality teammates has its benefits, because you can be a whole lot more selfish.

Bure's raw gigantic leads over Tony Amonte and Owen Nolan mean a whole lot less than the fact that Jagr (who missed 19 games) was cutting a pace that would have seen him score 47 in the same amount of games as Bure (again, not counting empty netters, because seriously, that's the only reason this thread and the continued fascination on HOH with Bure's 2000 exist...).

I mean, your entire pro-rated theory has him scoring 15 empty-net goals in 1981-82.

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07-25-2013, 02:05 PM
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Fred Taylor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
I'd find it more impressive if he had bothered to go back into his own zone, like, once that season.
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Horribly overrated. Maybe not even his best.

First of all, only 49 of them actually went past a goalie, as 9 of them were into an empty net. Compare that to (shock, awe) Teemu Selanne in 1998, who scored 50+2 goals in 73 GP two years earlier in an even lower-scoring league. And Selanne had a better pace without Kariya, so there's no guarantee that Bure would have done better with different linemates, since isolation from quality teammates has its benefits, because you can be a whole lot more selfish.

Bure's raw gigantic leads over Tony Amonte and Owen Nolan mean a whole lot less than the fact that Jagr (who missed 19 games) was cutting a pace that would have seen him score 47 in the same amount of games as Bure (again, not counting empty netters, because seriously, that's the only reason this thread and the continued fascination on HOH with Bure's 2000 exist...).

I mean, your entire pro-rated theory has him scoring 15 empty-net goals in 1981-82.
Well, he must have been in his own zone sometimes if they kept putting him out there when the other team pulled their goalie, no? I wasn't aware that he had scored 9 empty netters in 99-00, but that doesn't change my opinion of him one bit as a player or as a goalscorer.

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07-25-2013, 02:18 PM
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DisgruntledGoat
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Well, he must have been in his own zone sometimes if they kept putting him out there when the other team pulled their goalie, no?
I don't know why it would mean that at all.

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07-25-2013, 02:52 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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I don't know why it would mean that at all.
because the vast majority of times that teams pull their goalie is when they have an offensive zone draw, or when they have possession in/have just dumped the puck into the offensive zone.

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07-25-2013, 02:54 PM
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LoPan
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92 actual goals is > any amount of adjusted goals. You either do it, or you don't. Sorry, "adjusting points" just seems silly to me. I understand why people do it, but actual accomplishments >> "what if" accomplishments IMO.

58 goals doesn't even come close to the "greatest individual goal scoring season ever".

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07-25-2013, 02:55 PM
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Wrath
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because the vast majority of times that teams pull their goalie is when they have an offensive zone draw, or when they have possession in/have just dumped the puck into the offensive zone.
I think DisgruntledGoat's point was that pretty much right after the defensive zone faceoff in a pulled goalie situation Bure would probably skate back to the blue line and wait for a breakout pass.

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07-25-2013, 02:57 PM
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GuineaPig
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Originally Posted by LoPan View Post
92 actual goals is > any amount of adjusted goals. You either do it, or you don't. Sorry, "adjusting points" just seems silly to me. I understand why people do it, but actual accomplishments >> "what if" accomplishments IMO.

58 goals doesn't even come close to the "greatest individual goal scoring season ever".
But by the same logic, doesn't that mean that Patrick Roy has never had as good a season as Ryan Miller? Or Mike Smith? Or even Byron Dafoe?

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07-25-2013, 02:58 PM
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Wrath
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Originally Posted by LoPan View Post
92 actual goals is > any amount of adjusted goals. You either do it, or you don't. Sorry, "adjusting points" just seems silly to me. I understand why people do it, but actual accomplishments >> "what if" accomplishments IMO.

58 goals doesn't even come close to the "greatest individual goal scoring season ever".
Not accounting for era at all is even more ridiculous than blindly taking adjusted stats/goals.

If Ovechkin or Stamkos scored 80 goals in one of the 2010-2012 years when scoring was flirting with DPE levels (i exclude most recent season because it was a half season, and future seasons due to possible future rule changes) I would consider that the most impressive goalscoring season ever.


That said I'd still take Gretzky's 92 goal season over Bure's 58 goal season, partially because I think Bure's season is overrated and partially because I think adjusted stats unfairly hits the most offensively productive players of "high scoring eras".

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07-25-2013, 03:05 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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due to the recent announcement about his jersey retirement, this is being discussed on the canucks board right now. defending 6-on-5, as well as killing penalties, bure was valuable because his anticipation, the pressure he put on d-men when they are handling the puck, and obviously his blowaway speed kept defensemen out of the play and helped to equalize odd-man opportunities.

i didn't see every one of his EN goals in 2000 (it was florida; how many of bure's games did any of us see beyond highlights?) but if you're washington and have gonchar and calle johansson on the points pressing for a late goal, bure is the guy i want on the ice to keep them from pinching and to take away their ability to make quick decisions.

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07-25-2013, 03:06 PM
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vadim sharifijanov
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Just imagine if he had Oates at centre in the early 90s.
honestly, i think the two guys bure would have been best with are coffey and housley. coffey is probably the best outlet passer i've ever seen, and housley to teemu in winnipeg was like clockwork.

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07-25-2013, 03:14 PM
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Stonewall
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I think his 2000-01 season was even more impressive considering how bad the rest of his team was.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...002342001.html

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07-25-2013, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
honestly, i think the two guys bure would have been best with are coffey and housley. coffey is probably the best outlet passer i've ever seen, and housley to teemu in winnipeg was like clockwork.
smart, I never looked at it like that. I think you're right, and a puck-moving dman would suit his game the best. Lidstrom, even, or Niedermayer would have done wonders.

As far as centers, I always thought Lafontaine would suit his game the most.

As far as your comment on nobody seeing much out of Florida except for highlights - I agree. I would go one step further, at least as a BC boy, that much of Hasek's 'unorthodox' rep came the same way. You saw 3 Hasek highlights a night, and well-positioned chest saves don't 'sell tickets'. I think people misproportion how often he sprawled, and likely do the same with Bure's cherry-picking.

I also think that you're right in suggesting his presence alone took 2 defensemen a little bit out of attack mode.

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07-25-2013, 03:25 PM
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As far as Bure's great seasons in Florida, well - leaving 66 and 99 out of this, because I hate the ****storms they bring on here, Bure, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Hull, and Bossy have to be the top 5 snipers since 1980. Hull and Stamkos are the same guy - man can they fire the puck! Like NO ONE else. They rely(d) on great linemates, by nature of their game. Bossy was, to me, like the best Luc Robitaille-like scorer ever, and he also had incredible linemates. Bure is a faster Ovie, and Ovie is a powerforward version of Bure. I won't even try to list the 5 in order, but I will say that the two Russians are, of the 5, the most capable of scoring completely on their own.

And not one of those 5 is remotely noted for defensive play, and really, when you have a pure, elite sniper - the other 4 guys on the ice should WANT to carry the extra load, because they have less responsibilty in the o-zone... just get the man his puck!

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07-25-2013, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
As far as Bure's great seasons in Florida, well - leaving 66 and 99 out of this, because I hate the ****storms they bring on here, Bure, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Hull, and Bossy have to be the top 5 snipers since 1980. Hull and Stamkos are the same guy - man can they fire the puck! Like NO ONE else. They rely(d) on great linemates, by nature of their game. Bossy was, to me, like the best Luc Robitaille-like scorer ever, and he also had incredible linemates. Bure is a faster Ovie, and Ovie is a powerforward version of Bure. I won't even try to list the 5 in order, but I will say that the two Russians are, of the 5, the most capable of scoring completely on their own.
I'd add Selanne and Kovalchuk to that list otherwise excellent.

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07-25-2013, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by LoPan View Post
92 actual goals is > any amount of adjusted goals. You either do it, or you don't. Sorry, "adjusting points" just seems silly to me. I understand why people do it, but actual accomplishments >> "what if" accomplishments IMO.

58 goals doesn't even come close to the "greatest individual goal scoring season ever".
It has nothing to do "with if" accomplishments. There has to be some effort to account for era, otherwise you are putting players from 1994-present at a huge disadvantage.

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07-25-2013, 03:35 PM
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I'd add Selanne and Kovalchuk to that list otherwise excellent.
thanks. Yes, I agree about Selanne, actually. Man, wheels and skill nearly like Bure, but he had, and still HAS, that Bossy-like knack around the net. Garbage goals, breakaway goals, one-timers, lots of all of 'em.

Kovie is so damned good, and he's a carbon-copy of Ovie. I just see him as a half-notch down.

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07-25-2013, 03:44 PM
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I'd add Selanne and Kovalchuk to that list otherwise excellent.
Selanne is mostly a goal-scorer, yes. But I never saw him as a pure sniper like Bure or Hull. He is clear notch below in that department. Not a big notch, but notch still. However, Selanne was/is more versatile offensive player than most pure snipers.

From the bunch of Bure, Hull, Kovalchuk and Selanne. Teemu is the best overall offensive player. I am not sure about Ovechkin. He is the best offensive player of that group, not as good playmaker as Selanne was, but he fixed that with his unparalled ability to drive his body and puck towards the net.


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07-25-2013, 04:13 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
smart, I never looked at it like that. I think you're right, and a puck-moving dman would suit his game the best. Lidstrom, even, or Niedermayer would have done wonders.

As far as centers, I always thought Lafontaine would suit his game the most.

As far as your comment on nobody seeing much out of Florida except for highlights - I agree. I would go one step further, at least as a BC boy, that much of Hasek's 'unorthodox' rep came the same way. You saw 3 Hasek highlights a night, and well-positioned chest saves don't 'sell tickets'. I think people misproportion how often he sprawled, and likely do the same with Bure's cherry-picking.

I also think that you're right in suggesting his presence alone took 2 defensemen a little bit out of attack mode.
100% correct on Bure and Hasek. I think the media played a big part in the Hasek misconception as well. (ESPN)

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07-25-2013, 05:37 PM
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LoPan
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It has nothing to do "with if" accomplishments. There has to be some effort to account for era, otherwise you are putting players from 1994-present at a huge disadvantage.
The problem I have with adjusting for era is that it adjusts all players equally - Gretzky and Orr and Howe get "adjusted" the same % as player's who shouldn't even be in the same conversation.

I understand why they do it and I think it is a great tool for discussing "average" player's across eras. Personally I think you could adjust Gretzky up in this era of no holding/grabbing or two line off sides. Well, not really, but I hope you get what I'm saying

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07-25-2013, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by LoPan View Post
92 actual goals is > any amount of adjusted goals. You either do it, or you don't. Sorry, "adjusting points" just seems silly to me. I understand why people do it, but actual accomplishments >> "what if" accomplishments IMO.
So 100 goals in the American Hockey League would be better than Gretzky's 92 goals, then? It's eight more.

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07-25-2013, 05:54 PM
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I'd find it more impressive if he had bothered to go back into his own zone, like, once that season.
Yeah, that's the season that got him his reputation as a selfish, cherry-picking floater, which wasn't really true early in his career.

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07-25-2013, 05:56 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Yeah, that's the season that got him his reputation as a selfish, cherry-picking floater, which wasn't really true early in his career.
I thought it was his last season in Vancouver (97-98), when he came back after a contract dispute and was very obviously only playing to get 50 goals and hit his contract bonus.

Then it continued in Florida, but I think it was much worse in 00-01 than 99-00. I think 00-01 is when the phrase "feeding the cat" was coined, but I'm not sure.

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