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Bure's 58 goals in 99-2000

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07-25-2013, 06:18 PM
  #26
Dark Shadows
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought it was his last season in Vancouver (97-98), when he came back after a contract dispute and was very obviously only playing to get 50 goals and hit his contract bonus.

Then it continued in Florida, but I think it was much worse in 00-01 than 99-00. I think 00-01 is when the phrase "feeding the cat" was coined, but I'm not sure.
You would be correct about the Vancouver year.

But he was cherry picking up a storm the entire time in Florida.

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07-25-2013, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought it was his last season in Vancouver (97-98), when he came back after a contract dispute and was very obviously only playing to get 50 goals and hit his contract bonus.

Then it continued in Florida, but I think it was much worse in 00-01 than 99-00. I think 00-01 is when the phrase "feeding the cat" was coined, but I'm not sure.
I believe the degree to which Bure played to "hit his contract bonus" in last season in Vancouver is fairly exaggerated, although there was a change. One can possibly point at the 1997-98 season as the turning point in Pavel's career in regards to his style of play, although that season he found a halfway point between the tendencies of "Florida Bure" and "Vancouver Bure." His teammates supported him, and his coach felt he was the hardest worker on the team.

Also, the 50th goal "blowout" myth that people continue to post is entirely fabricated. One of the other primary motivators for Pavel to reach 50 was its significance to him as a symbol of his "return" after he dealt with such unfortunate injuries. He willed his knee back to strength after what appeared to be a career-ending ACL tear in 1995. In the 1996-97 season he faced a major neck injury and whiplash that ruined his performance that year. 1997-98 was his first legitimate opportunity since 1993-94 to aim for a 50-goal season:

http://www.pbfc.org/oldnews.html
Quote:
Friday April 17,1998
Calgary Bure Canucks

Andrew Cassels scored two goals and linemates Marty McInnis and Cory Stillman each added a goal and an assist as the Calgary Flames snapped a six-game winless streak by defeating the Vancouver Canucks, 4-2, in a matchup of teams out of the playoff picture.

Pavel Bure, who has been the Canucks' lone bright spot this season, scored his 50th goal, his highest total since he scored 60 in back-to-back seasons in 1993-94 and 1994-95. (misprint by website editors)

Bure's goal opened the scoring 9:46 into Friday's game.

Gearing up from his own end, Bure hit the Flames' blue line at top speed and fired a 45-footer that appeared to hit off a Calgary player, beating goalie Dwayne Roloson on the short side.

...

Coach Mike Keenan was happy for his scoring star.

"It's a tough season to get 50 goals," Keenan said. "He had to be committed because he's not had a lot of support. It's nice for him to be able to accomplish it (score 50) in such a dismal season."

"Pavel has to be commended because he hasn't had a great deal of support throughout the year, " said Canuck coach Mike Keenan, who was behind the bench for 42 of the Russian's 50 goals. "Since I arrived [Nov. 13], he's played hard every game. It was nice that he was able to accomplish this in a dismal season."

Canuck captain Mark Messier, Bure's linemate on almost every shift, was also impressed.

"I think Pavel has been great all year long, right from the first game in Tokyo," Messier said. "He's had just a tremendous year."
It's very interesting that one of the laziest players on the team was Bure's linemate that year. Certainly, if they were to complement one another, Bure would have to play a certain style. He did not deviate from his game as much as people tend to believe, but certain adjustments were made, becoming more apparent as the year progressed.

Quote:
Sunday April 19,1998
Keenan, Messier laud Rocket power
Terry Bell, Sports Reporter The Province

...

"It was special to get it (No. 50) at home," said Bure who has hit the milestone two other times, both of them on the road. "It's a milestone but we still lost (4-2) and that's a bad feeling.

"It was good to do it in front of the fans who've been so supportive through seven years. I've always had a great relationship with them.

"I just want to say thanks," added Bure, who also thanked his teammates.

There was a time last year when there was doubt if Bure would ever hit 50 again. Out for all but 15 games the year before with a knee injury, he suffered a neck injury in the 1996-97 season opener and managed just 23 goals in 63 games.

"It was really tough to score 50 because I was injured for two years and it's tough to bounce back. The way hockey is now there are not so many goals. It's really hard."


With tonight's finale against Toronto still to go, Bure has 32 even-strength goals, 12 on the power play and six shorthanded, which ties him for the NHL lead with San Jose's Jeff Friesen.

Entering play Saturday, only Anaheim's Teemu Selanne (52) and Philadelphia's John LeClair (51) had also hit 50. Washington's Peter Bondra had 49.

"It's been a tough year and for Pavel Bure to score 50 he's had to be very committed because he hasn't had a great deal of support," said head coach Mike Keenan.

"It's nice for him to be able to accomplish it in such a dismal season."

"He's been great all along, right from the start in Tokyo on," said Mark Messier, Bure's centre. "He's seemed tired a couple of times but he bounced back. He's been very consistent."

Bure said it was a relief to get 50. He says there may be a team dinner or a party after the season with the extra money the milestone brings.
Quote:
Sunday April 19,1998
Pavel scores, Canucks lose

Daniil Markov and Steve Sullivan scored second-period goals and Glenn Healy stopped 17 shots as the Toronto Maple Leafs edged the Vancouver Canucks, 2-1, in the NHL season finale.

Pavel Bure, the lone bright spot in a dismal season, scored his 51st goal for Vancouver. The Canucks set team records for fewest home wins (15) and fewest goals at home (110) en route to a last-place finish in the Pacific Division.
Despite being vilified by the media and the organization, Pavel remained incredibly professional throughout the ordeal. His teammates wholeheartedly supported him.

Quote:
Wednesday April 15,1998
Messier would miss Pavel
Captain pays tribute, says Bure 'needs a change'
Jim Jamieson, Sports Reporter The Province

Bure's reasons for wanting a trade include: To live in a larger centre that would afford some anonymity; play on a team with a better travel schedule; go to a contender.

Despite the disappointment, Messier said he understands Bure's reasons for wanting a change.

"I think I got to the point in Edmonton where I knew changes had to be made," said Messier. "I'd spent 12 years living there in the city and done all the winning, but I needed a change more from a personal standpoint than professional. Pavel came here as a young boy. He's lived here and he just needs a change. It doesn't have anything to do with the people or the city or the organization. Sometimes you just need a life change to make yourself happy.

"He's played here seven or eight years. That's a long time these days."

Bure has clearly returned to the form he enjoyed prior to his knee injury early in the 1995-96 season. But despite not wanting to be in Vancouver, he's had a spectacular season and can reach the 50-goal plateau tonight against the Kings.

"I think that shows you part of Pavel's character," said Messier. "That's something that's probably been overlooked about Pavel. I think it's been misunderstood how good a team player he is in that he's able to put all that aside and come to the rink and play hard and feels he has an obligation to his teammates."
Quote:
Sunday April 19,1998
Bure gives press silent treatment
Tips in marker and then deflects questions
Jim Jamieson, Sports Reporter The Province
He scored what was likely his last goal as a Vancouver Canuck with one hand on the stick.

It was probably appropriate, because Pavel Bure is in the process of letting go of the team he's graced for the past seven seasons.

Bure got the Canucks back into their 2-1 loss to the Toronto Maple Leafs with a third-period goal, deflecting Jyrki Lumme's point shot past Glenn Healy by reaching one-handed into the slot. But the Russian Rocket was as cryptic as usual afterwards, deflecting more questions about his future in Vancouver.

"Tonight, I can't tell you nothing," said Bure, sporting a few stitches on his chin, the high-sticking penalty setting the stage for his power-play goal. "One day maybe I'll say something, but right now I can't. I have no comment."

...

Oddly enough, Lumme, being an unrestricted free agent and another player likely to not be back, created the final goal of the season. And Lumme said it crossed his mind that it might be Bure's last goal for Vancouver.

"It's too bad for everybody in Vancouver," said Lumme. "He's done lots for this city and right now he's back in his form and he's a top player in the league right now. You don't want to lose a player like that."
Quote:
"That's a difficult question to answer," said agent Mike Gillis when asked whether Bure still wants to leave. "He's very concerned about competing and about winning. He's watching the changes and reacting to them as positively as possible. He's looking to see if the team will take steps to attempt to go in a positive direction. He's playing great. He's in a good frame of mind. Being the captain of the Russian team was a real tribute to him in a lot of different ways and it established him as a leader."
One has to wonder how much Mike Keenan's coaching tactics affected Bure as well. Keenan is known for his harshness, and one such instance brings attention to the pressures Bure may have faced from Keenan to score:

Quote:
Friday, April 3, 1998
Curses for Keenan
Bure, Iron Mike in heated exchange at Canucks bench
Jim Jamieson, Sports Reporter The Province

It may not be a major reason why Pavel Bure wants out of Vancouver, but a verbal dust-up on the bench with head coach Mike Keenan can't help but make the decision a little easier.

In yet another barometer reading of how the times are changing for the Vancouver Canucks, Bure, for years virtually immune to criticism, was carved up in front of his teammates during a 1-1 tie with the Senators two Saturdays ago. Bure and Keenan were at each other's throat in the confrontation, as the coach tried a little motivational shock therapy on the Russian Rocket.

The fireworks occurred early in the second period, the Canucks trailing the Senators 1-0 and Bure having one of his less inspired games. According to sources, Keenan approached Bure and asked him if he was going to play this game and referred to him as a "selfish little suck."

Bure shot back: "F--- you! I've played 69 games this season."

Bure then started to get up, apparently to leave the bench, but sat down again. While this remarkable repartee was taking place, the rest of the players on the bench were variously trying to pretend they hadn't heard what was being said or staring awkwardly in another direction.

A few minutes later, Bure scored the tying goal but, when he came back to the bench, he made a point of sitting at the opposite end from Keenan. The coach then approached him saying, "Way to go, Pavel."

But Bure was having none of it and once again told Keenan to f--- off.

Bure was clearly displeased when asked about the incident following Thursday's practice and said he had no comment, but Keenan confirmed there had been a flare-up during the Ottawa game.

"It's not a big deal. It happens all the time," said Keenan of his dressing down of the highest profile athlete ever to play in Vancouver. "We talked about it after (the game) and he said, 'No problem.' Anyway, he went out and scored the tying goal afterwards."
It appears the change was designed to pressure Bure into scoring a goal.

The media played a major role in chasing him out, often blaming him for the team's lack of success -- failure that continued for two more seasons after he was traded. Bure became the scapegoat, and thus they pinned blame on him whenever the team struggled. The negatives in his game were horribly exaggerated as a result. His relationship with the media at the end of his time in Vancouver was estranged, and in his final season the media did an excellent job of smearing his image.

One of the primary reasons moving Bure would have supposedly "benefited" the Canucks would be to have allowed Mogilny to play on the top line; of course, justifying the trade of a top player in this fashion is absurd; reduction of scoring depth = reason to trade Bure? Here, I think the media were grasping at straws.

Quote:
Saturday April 11,1998
Lose Pavel, Lose Fans Like Me
McCaw must do what it takes to keep star here.
An open letter to John McCaw
Re: Pavel Bure

Dear John McCaw,

I am writing to you in your capacity as owner of the company That owns the Vancouver Canucks Hockey Club.

My capacity is smaller. I don't own a company, a hockey club or even a hockey stick.

I am writing to you as a hockey fan who happens to write a newspaper column.

I will get right to the point.

If you lose Pavel Bure, you will lose me and many thousands like me.

...

Bure is know to have asked for a trade last summer and since then many vocal fans, led by by CKNW sports talk host Dan Russell, have expounded that we shouldn't try to keep a guy who doesn't want to be here.

Bull.
Quote:
Wednesday, April 1st, 1998
Helping Bure out door could be wise move by Canucks
By Grant Kerr
VANCOUVER

...

By trimming payroll, the Canucks may be able to afford free-agent netminder Mike Richter should he elect not to re-sign with the New York Rangers. Obtaining a No. 1 puckstopper is a priority for the Canucks, who have allowed more goals than any NHL team this season.

Richter has played for Keenan before and managed to cope with the quirky demands of Iron Mike during a Stanley Cup championship season.

Offering Bure to some of the richer teams in the league -- the Rangers quickly come to mind -- would allow the Canucks to plug holes elsewhere in the lineup. Vancouver needs a hard-shooting defenceman for the power play and a second-line centre to play behind captain Mark Messier.

The Canucks have been brutal on the power play this season. One reason is the lack of a quarterback at the point. The other is one the Canucks don't talk about much -- selfishness. Vancouver does not move the puck effectively on power plays, often because Bure tends to hang on too long.

It's a given that talented players need the puck more than others, but Bure often overlooks less-skilled teammates when he should pass to the open man. By trading Bure, team play probably would improve.

Another factor to be considered is the deployment of Alexander Mogilny. He has much the same skill as Bure but often is not used properly. Mogilny scored 55 goals two seasons ago -- when Bure was injured.

Mogilny appears to be much more productive when he is the main man instead of playing behind a superstar such as Bure. Mogilny would seem to be a good fit on a line with Messier and rugged winger Brad May, once a teammate of Mogilny in Buffalo.
Quote:
Wednesday, April 1st, 1998
Gary Mason:If Bure wants to dance elsewhere, let him
If the Canucks stand to lose a player of the Russian Rocket's status, Mark Messier's viewpoint will surely be sought.
Gary Mason Vancouver Sun

...

As much as I'd hate to see Bure go, I think Alexander Mogilny's potentially awesome talents are wasted playing behind his fellow countryman. Mogilny is a first-line right winger in this league and doesn't seem nearly as motivated playing in Bure's shadow. The fact he's played on the second line, on a team as dreadful as the Canucks have been most of the year, is ridiculous.
The media tried to think of any potential reasons to have Bure traded; his reputation here was nearly ruined in a short period of time. He became the villain, and the negatives in his game were grossly exaggerated.

Bure's game certainly changed to some degree, but a number of circumstances have affected how his final season has been perceived. His game did not change overnight from "Vancouver Bure" to "Florida Bure." He played hard in the 1997-98 season, and seemed motivated to score not only because of the potential contract bonus, but also because it symbolized his "return" and due to Keenan's radically different coaching style. As we have acknowledged, Pavel returned to his two-way game when he joined the Rangers. The 1997-98 season may have been an anomaly, except he continued to prioritize goal scoring over anything else in Florida. Coaching may have influenced this.

When Pavel was traded to Florida, analysts still used the word "dynamic" to describe him. Here's an excerpt from an interview with Bob McKenzie:

http://www.purplelion.com/palace/paveltrade2.shtml
Quote:
Interviewer: You get the impression there's alot of bitterness going on between Pavel Bure and Brian Burke and the Vancouver Canucks team in general. I think what it comes down to is the fact in essence the team did not stand behind him... if anything, they went against him saying, 'You know what, he wasn't as hurt as badly as he was making out, did not want to come back and play in the play-offs.' It seems that that was the thing that really pushed Pavel Bure out of Vancouver.

BOB: "I have no idea. And you know what, I frankly get tired of thinking what it is. Pavel Bure can come on back from Russia now. He's got a deal to play this season. And he can answer for the fans in Vancouver and elsewhere as to why he didn't want to play for the Vancouver Canucks. The important thing for him and for the Florida Panthers is the Florida Panthers suddenly have some personality on this team now, a team that went to the Stanley Cup final on the basis of John Vanbiesbrouck and a bunch of guys that work hard now have one of the most dynamic players in the National Hockey League. It's going to be very interesting. They should be able to weather the loss of Jovanovski on the blue line. They'll look to other guys: Svehla, and Warrener and some other guys to step it up, what they've got now in a market that really needs a boost is the dynamics of Pavel Bure. So it's a good deal, a great deal for the Florida Panthers.
Pavel Bure's final season in Vancouver is often criticized and lumped together with his seasons in Florida when it was much less like Florida Bure than many tend to believe. He adopted tendencies that would be carried over into his Florida days, but he still retained some of his pre-1997 game as well.


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 07-25-2013 at 08:33 PM.
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07-25-2013, 08:28 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I thought it was his last season in Vancouver (97-98), when he came back after a contract dispute and was very obviously only playing to get 50 goals and hit his contract bonus.

Then it continued in Florida, but I think it was much worse in 00-01 than 99-00. I think 00-01 is when the phrase "feeding the cat" was coined, but I'm not sure.
Coulda been started in Vancouver, but ESPN2 didn't show a lot of their games, so damned if I noticed. But yeah, his other "almost 60" year in Florida was even worse. Blatant basket-hanging all day every day.

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07-25-2013, 10:41 PM
  #29
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smart, I never looked at it like that. I think you're right, and a puck-moving dman would suit his game the best. Lidstrom, even, or Niedermayer would have done wonders.

As far as centers, I always thought Lafontaine would suit his game the most.

As far as your comment on nobody seeing much out of Florida except for highlights - I agree. I would go one step further, at least as a BC boy, that much of Hasek's 'unorthodox' rep came the same way. You saw 3 Hasek highlights a night, and well-positioned chest saves don't 'sell tickets'. I think people misproportion how often he sprawled, and likely do the same with Bure's cherry-picking.

I also think that you're right in suggesting his presence alone took 2 defensemen a little bit out of attack mode.
thanks. though i'll add that it's not like bure wouldn't have benefited from an elite center. he and lindros were absolutely magic for a stretch when both were healthy. he had 13 goals in 11 games right after he was traded to florida, and 12 goals in 12 games right after he was traded to new york. the real difference between playing with robert svehla and jaro spacek, and playing with lindros and leetch? 8 assists in new york vs. just 3 in florida.

i just rewatched a couple of jetsalternate's excellent videos to refresh my memories and, wow, even i'd forgotten just what a force bure was in terms of pressuring guys in the defensive zone. it's not just the ridiculous first step, but his anticipation was so good. and once he'd knocked the puck away, he was so strong on it that he would circle back, look like he'd lost it two or three times, and still be the guy skating out of the zone with it. much respect to jetsalternate's work to show us that bure wasn't just a rich man's gaborik, the kind of in-game minutia you'd never see in highlight reels.

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07-26-2013, 01:01 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
I'd find it more impressive if he had bothered to go back into his own zone, like, once that season.
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Horribly overrated. Maybe not even his best.

First of all, only 49 of them actually went past a goalie, as 9 of them were into an empty net. Compare that to (shock, awe) Teemu Selanne in 1998, who scored 50+2 goals in 73 GP two years earlier in an even lower-scoring league. And Selanne had a better pace without Kariya, so there's no guarantee that Bure would have done better with different linemates, since isolation from quality teammates has its benefits, because you can be a whole lot more selfish.

Bure's raw gigantic leads over Tony Amonte and Owen Nolan mean a whole lot less than the fact that Jagr (who missed 19 games) was cutting a pace that would have seen him score 47 in the same amount of games as Bure (again, not counting empty netters, because seriously, that's the only reason this thread and the continued fascination on HOH with Bure's 2000 exist...).

I mean, your entire pro-rated theory has him scoring 15 empty-net goals in 1981-82.
At least he played regularly on the PK, and if you're regularly on the PK you spend a whole lot of time in your own zone. Bure have 49 SH points in 702 regular season games. Selšnne|Jagr have 24 SH points in 2778 combined regular season games. But somehow only Bure is a selfish floater who's never in his own zone.

There's probably a reason why Bure scored a whole bunch of EN goals in 99–00. It's because you could put him out there in the last minute to defend a lead and he wasn't liability. He also scored 14 GW goals that season, but let's hush about that.

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07-26-2013, 01:41 AM
  #31
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At least he played regularly on the PK, and if you're regularly on the PK you spend a whole lot of time in your own zone. Bure have 49 SH points in 702 regular season games. Selšnne|Jagr have 24 SH points in 2778 combined regular season games. But somehow only Bure is a selfish floater who's never in his own zone.

There's probably a reason why Bure scored a whole bunch of EN goals in 99–00. It's because you could put him out there in the last minute to defend a lead and he wasn't liability. He also scored 14 GW goals that season, but let's hush about that.
Absolutely. Here's one such empty-net goal from the 2001-02 season. Mike Keenan places him on the ice for a defensive zone faceoff; the opponent wins the draw, he rushes towards the puck, and the pressure caused by the wingers at the point results in the Panthers gaining the puck for the empty-net goal. As soon as Bure has the puck, his corresponding opposition point man (Mike Peca?) just glides off to the side and watches.

Bure, as commentator Jeff Rimer mentions, picks up three points that night. Hockey-Reference's box score states Bure had one goal, two assists that night -- and just one shot. He helped the team score each goal, and capitalized at the end of the night on a lost defensive zone faceoff with 19 seconds remaining in the game. At this point, Bure is nowhere near as explosive as he was earlier in his career, yet he rushes toward the opposing point man rapidly and closes off the distance before the point man can decide what to do. Pre-1997 Bure would have swiped the puck away relentlessly and then circled back quickly if he missed, though here Olli Jokinen pokes it free; one can't say whether Pavel would have swiped at it regardless, but he turns a defensive zone faceoff loss with 19 seconds remaining into an empty-net goal. Ultimately, critical defensive zone draw = goal.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxs...112150NYI.html

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...ed-share-video


Last edited by JetsAlternate: 07-26-2013 at 02:02 AM.
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07-26-2013, 10:26 AM
  #32
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Absolutely. Here's one such empty-net goal from the 2001-02 season. Mike Keenan places him on the ice for a defensive zone faceoff; the opponent wins the draw, he rushes towards the puck, and the pressure caused by the wingers at the point results in the Panthers gaining the puck for the empty-net goal. As soon as Bure has the puck, his corresponding opposition point man (Mike Peca?) just glides off to the side and watches.

Bure, as commentator Jeff Rimer mentions, picks up three points that night. Hockey-Reference's box score states Bure had one goal, two assists that night -- and just one shot. He helped the team score each goal, and capitalized at the end of the night on a lost defensive zone faceoff with 19 seconds remaining in the game. At this point, Bure is nowhere near as explosive as he was earlier in his career, yet he rushes toward the opposing point man rapidly and closes off the distance before the point man can decide what to do. Pre-1997 Bure would have swiped the puck away relentlessly and then circled back quickly if he missed, though here Olli Jokinen pokes it free; one can't say whether Pavel would have swiped at it regardless, but he turns a defensive zone faceoff loss with 19 seconds remaining into an empty-net goal. Ultimately, critical defensive zone draw = goal.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxs...112150NYI.html

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/con...ed-share-video


Watching that video I was stunned when I saw Jokinen playing while defending a lead. Or was he the best faceoff man in Florida. To me he epitomizes lazyness in his own zone (although he did learn to play defence in Calgary although he sucked at both ends in the games I saw him play for Winnipeg this season.)

Why I point this out is that I think there was something really akward in that Florida team.

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07-26-2013, 10:27 AM
  #33
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Selanne is mostly a goal-scorer, yes. But I never saw him as a pure sniper like Bure or Hull.
He was (is?) a sniper on powerplay.

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07-26-2013, 10:32 AM
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I think his 2000-01 season was even more impressive considering how bad the rest of his team was.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...002342001.html
45 more goals and 56 more pts than anybody else on the team. That's incredible in that era.

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07-26-2013, 11:23 AM
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45 more goals and 56 more pts than anybody else on the team. That's incredible in that era.
Ray Whitney, Mike Sillinger, and Viktor Kozlov didn't play full 82-game schedules in Florida because of trades and injuries. If they had, the gap would be closer to 30 points or so... about the same size as the gap between Jagr/Sakic and Bure.

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07-26-2013, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Ray Whitney, Mike Sillinger, and Viktor Kozlov didn't play full 82-game schedules in Florida because of trades and injuries. If they had, the gap would be closer to 30 points or so... about the same size as the gap between Jagr/Sakic and Bure.
maybe. but the spirit of SJR's amazement is that bure played with such little offensive support that year, playing without kozlov, sillinger, and whitney for 32, 27, and 39 games respectively.

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07-26-2013, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Ray Whitney, Mike Sillinger, and Viktor Kozlov didn't play full 82-game schedules in Florida because of trades and injuries. If they had, the gap would be closer to 30 points or so... about the same size as the gap between Jagr/Sakic and Bure.
True, but considering the team only scored a total of 200 goals, Bure accounted for 29.5% percent of that total (nearly a third). Ovi's 65 goal season works out to be 27.3% of the total goals his team scored (238 goals), so slightly less than Bure's.

If those players you mentioned played a full schedule, maybe Bure would have had more goals? All speculation...

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07-26-2013, 04:26 PM
  #38
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So 100 goals in the American Hockey League would be better than Gretzky's 92 goals, then? It's eight more.
...I didn't think I needed to specify we were talking about the NHL.

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07-26-2013, 04:31 PM
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...I didn't think I needed to specify we were talking about the NHL.
So you acknowledge that context is important when evaluating goal totals?

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07-26-2013, 05:30 PM
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So you acknowledge that context is important when evaluating goal totals?
Most definitely. I don't disagree with adjusting points for purposes of discussion, I do think it's one of the only ways to compare eras. I just think that it is not an exact science. It takes one flat metric and applies it to all players on an equal basis. I think that just adjusting everyone based on that metric with no other considerations and then taking it as the gospel truth is a poor measure.

Context is important, but so are raw numbers. I guess I don't know what I'm trying to say here It's been a very long week at work, forgive any poorly thought out comments I've made in the thread.

Edit: I know what I'm trying to say. Many things other than just the goals/game have changed over time in hockey, but we have no way to quantify those. Sure, Gretz score a ton of goals in what was a high scoring era, but many other things have changed since then - no red line, less obstruction/hooking, more quality players from an international base and so on. There is no way to say how any of those changes would impact the scoring of a player from a different era.


Last edited by LoPan: 07-26-2013 at 05:35 PM. Reason: Brain kicked in. A tiny bit at least.
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07-26-2013, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by LoPan View Post
Most definitely. I don't disagree with adjusting points for purposes of discussion, I do think it's one of the only ways to compare eras. I just think that it is not an exact science. It takes one flat metric and applies it to all players on an equal basis. I think that just adjusting everyone based on that metric with no other considerations and then taking it as the gospel truth is a poor measure.

Context is important, but so are raw numbers. I guess I don't know what I'm trying to say here It's been a very long week at work, forgive any poorly thought out comments I've made in the thread.
No worries - I see what you're saying now.

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07-26-2013, 05:37 PM
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No worries - I see what you're saying now.
Good The last thing I want on this board is the History of Hockey posters to think I'm some sort of idiot. This is by far the most knowledgable and well thought out discussion board for hockey that I've ever read.

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07-26-2013, 06:31 PM
  #43
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Good The last thing I want on this board is the History of Hockey posters to think I'm some sort of idiot.
No worries there LoPan. That Awards all mine. Own it 3yrs running.

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07-26-2013, 07:06 PM
  #44
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Code:
Rank	Year	Player	Era Adjusted Goals
1	1970-71	Phil Esposito	100.184
2	1990-91	Brett Hull	99.671
3	1952-53	Gordie Howe	93.567
4	1981-82	Wayne Gretzky	92.000
5	2007-08	Alex Ovechkin	91.472
6	1988-89	Mario Lemieux	91.136
7	1983-84	Wayne Gretzky	88.546
8	1971-72	Phil Esposito	88.419
9	1973-74	Phil Esposito	87.397
10	2011-12	Steven Stamkos	85.982
11	1995-96	Mario Lemieux	85.969
12	1955-56	Gordie Howe	85.136
13	1992-93	Mogilny/Selanne	83.956
14	1951-52	Gordie Howe	82.844
15	1999-00	Pavel Bure	82.512
16	2000-01	Pavel Bure	82.213
17	1968-69	Bobby Hull	82.155
18	1965-66	Bobby Hull	81.406
19	1991-92	Brett Hull	80.661
20	1966-67	Bobby Hull	79.969
#15 when era adjusted.

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07-26-2013, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Where does it rank all-time? Could it be considered as the greatest individual "goal scoring" season ever?

Considering he scored 58:

a) in 74 games
b) in a very low scoring era
c) with poor linemates on a crappy Panthers team

pro-rated:

82/74 gp x 58 goals = 64.3 goals

GPG ratio (81-82/99-00 season) = 6.952/4.505 x 64.3 goals = 99.2 goals


Just imagine if he had Oates at centre in the early 90s.
Nice season but doesn't compare to Bobby Hull's 54 goals in 65-66.

-in 65 games
-first time anybody scored over 50
-Record 97 pts to win the AR
-Average line mates
-low scoring era
-original 6

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07-27-2013, 01:21 AM
  #46
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I somehow doubt Oates and Bure would be a good match on the ice.

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07-27-2013, 02:02 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Averick View Post
Code:
Rank	Year	Player	Era Adjusted Goals
1	1970-71	Phil Esposito	100.184
2	1990-91	Brett Hull	99.671
3	1952-53	Gordie Howe	93.567
4	1981-82	Wayne Gretzky	92.000
5	2007-08	Alex Ovechkin	91.472
6	1988-89	Mario Lemieux	91.136
7	1983-84	Wayne Gretzky	88.546
8	1971-72	Phil Esposito	88.419
9	1973-74	Phil Esposito	87.397
10	2011-12	Steven Stamkos	85.982
11	1995-96	Mario Lemieux	85.969
12	1955-56	Gordie Howe	85.136
13	1992-93	Mogilny/Selanne	83.956
14	1951-52	Gordie Howe	82.844
15	1999-00	Pavel Bure	82.512
16	2000-01	Pavel Bure	82.213
17	1968-69	Bobby Hull	82.155
18	1965-66	Bobby Hull	81.406
19	1991-92	Brett Hull	80.661
20	1966-67	Bobby Hull	79.969
#15 when era adjusted.
91.4 when considering pace/82 games.

(I know you specifically didn't do that in your calc's, but .... well, it was a hell of a goalscoring season!)

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07-27-2013, 02:04 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
I somehow doubt Oates and Bure would be a good match on the ice.
I agree with you. I mean, it sure wouldn't have hurt, let's be honest - Pav could ring a hard one-timer, or snapper from point blank, too... he didn't score every goal on a breakout.... but ya, Oates wouldn't be my first pick for center to play with Bure.

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07-27-2013, 03:22 AM
  #49
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Averick View Post
Code:
Rank	Year	Player	Era Adjusted Goals
1	1970-71	Phil Esposito	100.184
2	1990-91	Brett Hull	99.671
3	1952-53	Gordie Howe	93.567
4	1981-82	Wayne Gretzky	92.000
5	2007-08	Alex Ovechkin	91.472
6	1988-89	Mario Lemieux	91.136
7	1983-84	Wayne Gretzky	88.546
8	1971-72	Phil Esposito	88.419
9	1973-74	Phil Esposito	87.397
10	2011-12	Steven Stamkos	85.982
11	1995-96	Mario Lemieux	85.969
12	1955-56	Gordie Howe	85.136
13	1992-93	Mogilny/Selanne	83.956
14	1951-52	Gordie Howe	82.844
15	1999-00	Pavel Bure	82.512
16	2000-01	Pavel Bure	82.213
17	1968-69	Bobby Hull	82.155
18	1965-66	Bobby Hull	81.406
19	1991-92	Brett Hull	80.661
20	1966-67	Bobby Hull	79.969
#15 when era adjusted.
I'm going to make this more of a point on the "on the numbers" board, but whatever calculation is used here HAS to be missing a factor related to expansion. There is no way that only 1 of the top 14 seasons of all time (you have 2 players at "#13) happened before the 1967 expansion.

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07-27-2013, 11:32 PM
  #50
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I hate this myth that Bure would have been better if he had an elite center. Bure would likely have suffered with an elite center. Bure relied on outlet passes and rushing the puck with his speed. Having Oates bring the puck up the ice and cycle it around would not have fit Bure's game.

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