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Bure's 58 goals in 99-2000

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07-27-2013, 11:46 PM
  #51
Fish on The Sand
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I think his 2000-01 season was even more impressive considering how bad the rest of his team was.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/l...002342001.html
the 2001 season to me is what proves that Bure's production actually had little impact on his team's success. In 2000 they had Whitney, Kozlov, and Kidd all have really good seasons, in the next season they all came back to earth, Bure's production stayed the same, but the team sucked the big one.

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07-28-2013, 12:30 AM
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the 2001 season to me is what proves that Bure's production actually had little impact on his team's success. In 2000 they had Whitney, Kozlov, and Kidd all have really good seasons, in the next season they all came back to earth, Bure's production stayed the same, but the team sucked the big one.
If nothing else, 2000-01 seems to have been when his Florida teammates got sick of him.

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07-28-2013, 02:53 AM
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I hate this myth that Bure would have been better if he had an elite center. Bure would likely have suffered with an elite center. Bure relied on outlet passes and rushing the puck with his speed. Having Oates bring the puck up the ice and cycle it around would not have fit Bure's game.
It could have depended on what kind of elite center. Perhaps he wouldn't have worked magic with the Oates kind of type because he wasn't a Brett Hull kind of player, but he could have worked it with a Fedorov or a Lindros or a Forsberg.

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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
the 2001 season to me is what proves that Bure's production actually had little impact on his team's success. In 2000 they had Whitney, Kozlov, and Kidd all have really good seasons, in the next season they all came back to earth, Bure's production stayed the same, but the team sucked the big one.
Trevor Kidd played 28 games in 99–00 as a back up kind of goalie and had a worser GAA than all Vernon, Shtalenkov and Burke. He even spent a game in the AHL with the Louisville Panthers. If that's a "really good season" by his own standars, then fine, but come on. Whitney and Kozlov had good seasons, but it wasn't anything spectacular. And Kozlov benefitted a lot more from Bure than Bure did from Kozlov.

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07-28-2013, 02:57 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
I hate this myth that Bure would have been better if he had an elite center. Bure would likely have suffered with an elite center. Bure relied on outlet passes and rushing the puck with his speed. Having Oates bring the puck up the ice and cycle it around would not have fit Bure's game.
I disagree. Especially in his early years in Vancouver, Bure was excellent at moving the puck in the offensive zone, especially on the powerplay. He would gain entry for his teammates, then would often distribute the puck and allow his teammates to establish an attack. He was very strong along the boards and forechecked tenaciously; in his first NHL season, he and Igor Larionov worked very well together. Pavel scored 22 goals in his last 23 regular season games in his rookie year.

One regret many Canucks fans had was the release of Igor Larionov after his contract had expired. For the remainder of his time in Vancouver afterward, the Canucks were looking for a centerman for him. That top-line centerman never arrived, although Bure and Gretzky had always expressed an interest in playing together. The Canucks could have acquired Gretzky in the 1996 off-season had Pat Quinn not provided him with an inappropriate, infamous ultimatum in the midst of negotiations.

I think the myth here is the assumption from some that Bure could not play with a centerman. While he was clearly tremendous on the rush, many times he was responsible for leading the powerplay as well and roaming the offensive zone -- much like Patrick Kane does today. I've made that comparison many times, as Kane's game in the offensive zone reminds me incredibly of Bure's.

I illustrated Bure's offensive zone game in my third video, titled Anticipation. After becoming more familiar with Kane's game recently, I've witnessed so many similarities in the way they both operate in the offensive zone. They way they roam, the way they anticipate where to be, and even their method of backhanding the puck down the boards is very similar. Pavel was always watching the play and positioning himself to support the puck, whether it be down low or at the point.



The shift featured at 18:06 is just one of many shifts demonstrating Bure's patience with the puck on the powerplay and ability to work very intelligently with his team established in the offensive zone. 22:08 is another example. 24:10 is one instance of Bure looking like Patrick Kane, as is 13:50. They both roam the zone very well. 5:35 provides a few examples of his strength along the boards and his explosiveness in the offensive zone. There are many offensive zone shifts featured here, all available to study. There are also many defensive zone shifts for those skeptical about his two-way play. If you have some time to analyze his game, I invite you to watch.



Last edited by JetsAlternate: 07-28-2013 at 03:33 AM.
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07-28-2013, 03:10 AM
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the 2001 season to me is what proves that Bure's production actually had little impact on his team's success.
Also, if you don't think Bure's production made an impact on his team's success then I don't even know what to say. I guess watch the 94 playoffs? The Dallas series for example. And he scored 14 GW goals for the Panthers in 99–00. But no, those goals probably didn't help his team to win at all.

When Bure came to Florida in the 98–99 season and scored 13 goals in 11 games the team started to win games immediately, then he went injured. Next season when he was back Florida suddenly was a playoff team. But oh well.

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07-28-2013, 03:39 AM
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Also, if you don't think Bure's production made an impact on his team's success then I don't even know what to say. I guess watch the 94 playoffs? The Dallas series for example. And he scored 14 GW goals for the Panthers in 99–00. But no, those goals probably didn't help his team to win at all.

When Bure came to Florida in the 98–99 season and scored 13 goals in 11 games the team started to win games immediately, then he went injured. Next season when he was back Florida suddenly was a playoff team. But oh well.
The most unfortunate thing to happen to Bure career-wise was his chronic right-knee problem. Most of his time playing in Florida happened after his second ACL tear on the same knee:

http://www.pbfc.org/oldnews.html
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Bure undergoes reconstructive surgery to repair ACL
Monday, March 29th, 1999

By JEFF SHAIN -- AP Sports Writer

MIAMI (AP) -- Pavel Bure's star-crossed season came to a premature end Monday when the Florida Panthers superstar underwent reconstructive surgery for a torn right knee ligament.

Bure, who came to Florida two months ago in a trade with Vancouver, opted for surgery on the anterior cruciate ligament following an examination by Dr. James Andrews in Birmingham, Ala.

The high-scoring Russian will miss the rest of the season and might not be ready when training camp starts in September.

``It'll be a hard summer for him,'' Panthers general manager Bryan Murray said in a conference call late Monday night.

The knee is the same one on which Bure had reconstructive surgery more than three years ago. He played just 11 games this season, getting 13 goals and three assists.

``He came to the conclusion to just get the operation done now,'' Murray said. ``We'll sacrifice him for the balance of year to have him for balance of his career, which we hope will be a long one.''
Intriguingly enough, Bure's injury also exposed how terrible the Panthers might have been. After he left the game in which he was injured, the Panthers relinquished a 5-1 lead with just over one period remaining against the Avalanche to lose 7-5.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...5310/index.htm
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March 15, 1999
The Nhl
Kostya Kennedy

Done in the Sun?
Pavel Bure's injury imperils Florida's chances for a postseason berth

The second half of the headline in last Thursday's Sun-Sentinel—BURE HURT; PANTHERS FOLD—referred to the five-goal lead Florida squandered in the final 22 minutes of a 7-5 loss to the Avalanche. It was the worst collapse by an NHL team in seven years, but Panthers fans fear that headline might also presage the rest of the season.

Pavel Bure, who'd scored a hat trick before pain in his right knee forced him out of the game after two periods with Florida leading 5-1, underwent arthroscopic surgery last Friday to repair a torn meniscus, and he's expected to miss the next two to three weeks. (He had already missed eight games in February because of pain in that knee.) Without their new star the Panthers (61 points at week's end) seem certain to lose ground in the battle for the eighth and final playoff spot in the Eastern Conference with the Bruins (64), Rangers (62), Canadiens (59) and Capitals (59).

Not since Mark Messier's 1991 arrival in New York has a team been as immediately defined by a new player as the Panthers have by the Russian Rocket, a holdout who was acquired from the Canucks on Jan. 17 for a package that included defenseman Ed Jovanovski and a No. 1 draft pick. Since landing in South Florida, the 27-year-old Bure has transformed a dull franchise known primarily for rubber rats and the suffocating neutral-zone trap into one of the most explosive teams in the league. ( Florida had gone 5-4-2 with Bure in the lineup and 17-19-15 without him.)

Despite not having the benefit of an offensive defenseman or a topflight center to dish him the puck, Bure, using pure speed to generate opportunities, scored 13 goals in his first 11 games with the Panthers. That pace, while almost certainly unsustainable, computes to 97 goals over an 82-game season. In his brief time in Florida, Bure has had two hat tricks, one shorthanded goal, the first penalty-shot goal in Panthers history and five power-play goals, which tied him for the club lead. "He gives our team a completely different look," says Florida general manager Brian Murray, who signed Bure to a five-year, $48 million extension last month. "He's a threat every time he's on the ice."

His impact has been felt off it, too. Local TV ratings have jumped some 20%, and any merchandise with Bure's name has rocketed off the shelves in Miami-area stores. Panthers coach Terry Murray, Brian's brother, credits Bure's presence with energizing Florida. "It's an intangible, a buzz you can feel in the locker room," he says.

So what happens when the guy who brings the buzz goes down with an injury? "You can get by the first two or three games on emotion" Terry says, "but the longer a star player is out, the more it wears down your team."
I have a few 2000-01 Panthers games archived in my collection. Having watched a few recently, I've noticed a trend in which the team simply could not maintain a lead. They would score several goals early in the game, then would allow the opposition to make a comeback. The team was dreadful defensively. If there are any boxscores available, it would be interesting to see how many leads the team gave up. If Pavel hadn't been scoring for them, they would have won even fewer games. The team already struggled to score goals.

In the 2000-01 season, the Panthers gave up 5 or more goals in 17 games, and 4 or more in 33 games. In comparison, the 1999-2000 Panthers gave up 5 or more goals in only eight games, and 4 or more in 19 games. One can point at team defense as one of the team's weakest points and the greatest difference between the 1999-2000 and 2000-01 seasons; nearly all of the major forwards except Bure finished with an abysmal +/-. Trevor Kidd's GAA increased dramatically as well. Not only were they worse offensively -- they were much, much worse defensively.


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07-28-2013, 03:51 AM
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Also, if you don't think Bure's production made an impact on his team's success then I don't even know what to say. I guess watch the 94 playoffs? The Dallas series for example. And he scored 14 GW goals for the Panthers in 99–00. But no, those goals probably didn't help his team to win at all.

When Bure came to Florida in the 98–99 season and scored 13 goals in 11 games the team started to win games immediately, then he went injured. Next season when he was back Florida suddenly was a playoff team. But oh well.
There's an argument that by 2000-01 in particular, Bure's selfishness and cherrypicking counteracted any positive impact his scoring was having on his team. I know his teammates in Florida were not at all sad that he left.

I watched a handful of Florida games in both 1999-00 and 2000-01 and watched highlights, paid attention to the stats and media narratives. And remember thinking in 1999-00 that Bure was a legit contender to actually win the Hart, not just be a finalist (in a weak year at the top but still).

But in 2000-01, he really was a huge liability. It's like he went too far into lazy cherrypicking or something. I dunno. Maybe his teammates got sick of it, or maybe they were able to excuse the cherrypicking when the team was winning games (the previous season).

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07-28-2013, 04:16 AM
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There's an argument that by 2000-01 in particular, Bure's selfishness and cherrypicking counteracted any positive impact his scoring was having on his team. I know his teammates in Florida were not at all sad that he left.

I watched a handful of Florida games in both 1999-00 and 2000-01 and watched highlights, paid attention to the stats and media narratives. And remember thinking in 1999-00 that Bure was a legit contender to actually win the Hart, not just be a finalist (in a weak year at the top but still).

But in 2000-01, he really was a huge liability. It's like he went too far into lazy cherrypicking or something. I dunno. Maybe his teammates got sick of it, or maybe they were able to excuse the cherrypicking when the team was winning games (the previous season).
I don't think he was cherrypicking in the 1999-2000 as much as he allegedly did in the 2000-01 season. He led his team in +/- and was tied for twelfth in the NHL at +25. The team, as I pointed out earlier, let in substantially fewer goals that year. I've seen 2000-01 Panthers games in which Pavel has scored two or three goals only for his team to let several goals in afterward whether or not he was on the ice, though often not.

Two discrepancies I see between the two years are Trevor Kidd's performance and the lack of team defense; the team suddenly more than doubled the number of games in which they let in five or more goals. In 1999-2000, the Panthers were ninth in goals against average; in 2000-01, they were 23rd. I also gave an example of the team falling apart when Pavel was not in the lineup, indicating there was something wrong with the team well before the 2000-01 season and regardless of Bure's presence. If Bure was an issue that year for the Panthers, he certainly wasn't the biggest issue. He was not the same player at all that he was in Vancouver and I am puzzled at the changes in his game while was in Florida, but I don't think he can be blamed solely for the Panthers' lack of success. I think they would have been a worse team without him. One can't rationally say Pavel is to blame for the 33 games in which 4 or more goals were scored against the team or the 17 in which 5 or more were scored; the entire team seemed to struggle. I will analyze his game in Florida when I have the chance to.

As soon as he left Florida and joined the Rangers, he became a strong two-way player again. I wonder why, in Florida, he deviated from his game as much as he did. It's as if he hit an off switch in Florida then turned it back on in New York. Someone or something must have influenced him to play that way in Florida, as I believe he was capable of much more. What I can say, and what I will continue to say, is that the short period of time he spent in Florida is not at all representative of the game he played at all other times during his career. That's why I believe his best years were in Vancouver -- when he played a complete, intelligent game, competed ferociously and proudly, and was extremely effective in all three zones -- not to mention before his ACL had been destroyed twice. In Vancouver, he was loved and admired by his teammates for his hard work and loyalty. Especially in his first few years, the naive player that he was, he would have done anything to help his team. I can't say for certain whether the ways in which Canucks management manipulated him had any effect on his approach to hockey when he finally left Vancouver. That bitter saga definitely tested him as an individual.


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07-28-2013, 11:48 AM
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There's an argument that by 2000-01 in particular, Bure's selfishness and cherrypicking counteracted any positive impact his scoring was having on his team. I know his teammates in Florida were not at all sad that he left.

I watched a handful of Florida games in both 1999-00 and 2000-01 and watched highlights, paid attention to the stats and media narratives. And remember thinking in 1999-00 that Bure was a legit contender to actually win the Hart, not just be a finalist (in a weak year at the top but still).

But in 2000-01, he really was a huge liability. It's like he went too far into lazy cherrypicking or something. I dunno. Maybe his teammates got sick of it, or maybe they were able to excuse the cherrypicking when the team was winning games (the previous season).
Bure in 0001 wasn't as good as Bure in 9900 but it's ridiculous to say he was a huge liability or that he held his team back. That team was a mess yes but it was hardly Bure's fault. Marcus Nilson finished third in points. Is that Bure's fault? Except Bure and Svehla not a single decent player played more than 70 games. Someone had to carry the load. Even if he stole ice time from Denis Shvidki and Ivan Novoseltsev it's hard to see how the team would have been much better if he did not.

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07-28-2013, 11:48 AM
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If nothing else, 2000-01 seems to have been when his Florida teammates got sick of him.
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
There's an argument that by 2000-01 in particular, Bure's selfishness and cherrypicking counteracted any positive impact his scoring was having on his team. I know his teammates in Florida were not at all sad that he left.

I watched a handful of Florida games in both 1999-00 and 2000-01 and watched highlights, paid attention to the stats and media narratives. And remember thinking in 1999-00 that Bure was a legit contender to actually win the Hart, not just be a finalist (in a weak year at the top but still).

But in 2000-01, he really was a huge liability. It's like he went too far into lazy cherrypicking or something. I dunno. Maybe his teammates got sick of it, or maybe they were able to excuse the cherrypicking when the team was winning games (the previous season).
was it all, or most, or even more than two of his florida teammates? or was it just trevor kidd and bill lindsay? i.e., one of the most bitter, entitled and disliked goalies of the era and a guy who had just been picked up on waivers?

none of this is to defend that '01 season, which was probably his worst full season after '98, but you've got a situation where the team is actively bottoming out, neglected to retain the starting goalie who was a revelation the previous year (vernon), traded away its only other top-six calibre forward for a song (whitney), traded away one of two defensemen on the team who could stickhandle with his head up (spacek), handed the goaltending reins to a kid with 24 games of NHL experience (21 year old luongo). it's also a situation where the team is awful, stripping itself after a surprise run to the playoffs the year before, and the best player is being asked to keep scoring goals to keep any butts in the seats, asked to be basically a sideshow to tide the organization over until the luongo/jokinen/bouwmeester (yes, they already knew it would be bouwmeester) era begins.

can you imagine being bure in that room, coming off an MVP year and then watching your team stripped? or any number of grizzled bottom six-ers at the end of your career? or trevor kidd watching himself get phased out for luongo? it was an ugly atmosphere and, to two players at least, it looks like bure was their scapegoat-- you know, the guy who won the scoring title and makes five-to-ten times what you do.

here's that original article where those two "break the code," so to speak: http://web.archive.org/web/200303090...rioch-sun.html

note that bill lindsay wasn't even there for the '01 season; he signed with florida in the '01 off-season. note that trevor kidd had previously whined his way out of calgary and carolina when he had lost his starting jobs there. and i also note that googling "bure" and "feed the panther" yields only hfboards posts by TDMM. which is not to call you out, TDMM, but, i wonder, as jetsalternate has worked so hard to show re: bure's cherry picking, whether over the years two disgruntled guys at the ends of their careers mouthing off in the press becomes the entire team, and then becomes general wisdom.

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07-28-2013, 11:59 AM
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As soon as he left Florida and joined the Rangers, he became a strong two-way player again..
He absolutely was not a strong two-way player with the Rangers. Maybe he wasn't an outright cherrypicker like he was in Florida, but he was definitely not a strong defensive player.

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07-28-2013, 12:02 PM
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was it all, or most, or even more than two of his florida teammates? or was it just trevor kidd and bill lindsay? i.e., one of the most bitter, entitled and disliked goalies of the era and a guy who had just been picked up on waivers?

none of this is to defend that '01 season, which was probably his worst full season after '98, but you've got a situation where the team is actively bottoming out, neglected to retain the starting goalie who was a revelation the previous year (vernon), traded away its only other top-six calibre forward for a song (whitney), traded away one of two defensemen on the team who could stickhandle with his head up (spacek), handed the goaltending reins to a kid with 24 games of NHL experience (21 year old luongo). it's also a situation where the team is awful, stripping itself after a surprise run to the playoffs the year before, and the best player is being asked to keep scoring goals to keep any butts in the seats, asked to be basically a sideshow to tide the organization over until the luongo/jokinen/bouwmeester (yes, they already knew it would be bouwmeester) era begins.

can you imagine being bure in that room, coming off an MVP year and then watching your team stripped? or any number of grizzled bottom six-ers at the end of your career? or trevor kidd watching himself get phased out for luongo? it was an ugly atmosphere and, to two players at least, it looks like bure was their scapegoat-- you know, the guy who won the scoring title and makes five-to-ten times what you do.

here's that original article where those two "break the code," so to speak: http://web.archive.org/web/200303090...rioch-sun.html

note that bill lindsay wasn't even there for the '01 season; he signed with florida in the '01 off-season. note that trevor kidd had previously whined his way out of calgary and carolina when he had lost his starting jobs there. and i also note that googling "bure" and "feed the panther" yields only hfboards posts by TDMM. which is not to call you out, TDMM, but, i wonder, as jetsalternate has worked so hard to show re: bure's cherry picking, whether over the years two disgruntled guys at the ends of their careers mouthing off in the press becomes the entire team, and then becomes general wisdom.
I've posted what I think was a NY Times article here before with the "feeding the cat" quote - it was fairly well reported in the NY area shortly after he became a Ranger

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07-28-2013, 12:16 PM
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here's that original article where those two "break the code," so to speak: http://web.archive.org/web/200303090...rioch-sun.html
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Originally Posted by Trevor Kidd
"When we (had) our 100-point season two years ago, he was a non-factor."
Wow. That Trevor Kidd quote is absolutely hilarious. With "100 point season" I guess he means the 99–00 season when the Panthers had 98 points and made the playoffs and Bure led the league in goals, led the league with 14 GW goals, was second in the league in points and a Hart Trophy finalist. But also somehow a "non-factor" to the success of his team. Yeah, OK.

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07-28-2013, 12:38 PM
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He absolutely was not a strong two-way player with the Rangers. Maybe he wasn't an outright cherrypicker like he was in Florida, but he was definitely not a strong defensive player.
You suggest he was still a cherrypicker in New York, yet people who watched him at the time -- even those who expected his game from Florida to carry over into New York -- reported that his game had undergone a drastic makeover as soon as he dressed for the Rangers:

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Originally Posted by JetsAlternate View Post
I was curious what some fans might have thought about Bure back in 2003, so I checked the last few pages of HF's National Hockey League section just now for any comments about Bure. Fortunately, on the last page, there was a thread called "Who do you think is the most one-dimensional player in the NHL?"

The thread is two pages long with most comments pointing at Kovalchuk, Sergei Berezin, and Andy Delmore as the most one-dimensional players at the time. Some current HF posters contributed to that thread. One post mentioned Bure, but that poster was criticized by two others:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ad.php?t=12928

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=20

09-20-2003, 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan.
Anyone who mentions Pavel Bure and doesn't bother to exclude his playing time with the Rangers is a downright fool. He played a SOLID two-way game and actually hit people.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...2&postcount=38

09-20-2003, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oiler94
Pavel Bure when he was playing...

Ilya Kovulchuk?
That's ridiculous

Pavel Bure was tremendous on the Rangers, probably our best back checker and was effective on the PK


can't just pick one, here are my nominees: Tom Poti, Andy Delmore, Pavel Brendl, Sergei Berezin, Mariuz Chow
People watching him at the time judged him as someone who was reliable defensively for New York. Throughout the entire thread, only one poster, of the 46 posts, mentioned Bure on any shortlist. Two other posters shut him down, asserting that he was a good two-way player for the Rangers. This is another indication that his current reputation simply is not accurate.

Perhaps the "less-than-stellar" defensive play some have reported may have only been an issue when he played for the Panthers. If he was fine before and after, it would have been an issue in Florida only. How those years defined his career is absurd.
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Below is more testimony I've uncovered from 2003, during the period when fans were uncertain whether Pavel would ever play again. This was shortly after Pavel's final NHL game. In response to one user's criticism of Bure, five made sure it was known that Bure was very reliable defensively as a Ranger:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=22

12-12-2003, 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnaby
Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
I know full well that Pavel played well with the Rangers, in fact he along with Rucinsky are the only 2 players in recent years that have played better here than expected.

Pavel scored 30 goals in 50 games.

This team doesn't need the scoring, they need a player that can help keep the puck out of the net. They need stability, they need to know that all 5 guys on the ice will get back into their own zone to help play defence.

Pavel cannot provide them with that knowledge because he doesn't backcheck into his own defensive zone.

Additionally Pavel Bure today is to fragile to play any significant minutes and he's to talented to play 3rd line minutes there's no fit on this team for him.

Hopefully he plays in the NHL again, just not with the Rangers.
I realize what your going for, but thats an ignorant statement if Iv'e ever seen one. Pavel Bure is one of the most gifted goal scorers in the last twenty years. When Bure was healthy he was easily one of our top 5 players in any game he played in, and usually he was one of the top 2-3 players. Saying he would hurt the team is a joke. Assuming he is healthy he can kill penalties and is a constant threat on the PP and PK. As much as I like Kovalev he's a borderline All star on the Rangers. Bure is a superstar. Just knowing hes on the ice hurts the other teams offense because they have to be aware of him at all times. Very few offensive players command the respect of Bure. Will he ever win the Selke trophy? No. But, when he was here he was usually solid defensively, and I even remember him chasing people down from behind. If the guy gives you 40 goals, and makes the players around him better you dont complain, you celebrate. And oh yea, here is a guy that works his @ss off. Let's not forget he loves to play in NY and he wanted to come here for the longest time. Unlike, Bobby "I wish I was still a Devil" Holik and Eric "I want Toronto" Lindros. Here is a guy that wants to be here and is electrifyng. If his knee is even decent and he skates on the ice tomorrow for the NYR then watch as they finally make the playoffs.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=24

12-13-2003, 04:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theoren Fan
Pavel Bure was not a defensive liability for the New York Rangers.

Pavel Bure backchecked for the New York Rangers.

Pavel Bure helps win games for the New York Rangers.

The New York Ranger's chances drasticly improve with Pavel Bure in the lineup.

Suggesting anything else is simply incorrect or a product of somebody who did not watch or remember any Ranger's hockey with Pavel Bure.

I hope this help clears things up for anybody who may still be confused about the situation
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...3&postcount=20

12-12-2003, 07:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowrunner
Bure, despite his injuries, has been the Rangers' most consistent forward over probably the last decade. He played well defensively, he hussled, and he scored goals against other teams' top lines when his own linemates were emulating hybernation.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...8&postcount=15

12-12-2003, 07:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathbear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
As a player I want to see him healthy again, but not until the summer after his contratc runs out.

I don't want to see Pavel Bure anywhere near this team.

the last thing we need on this team is a one-legged cherry picker that doesn't play dfefence.
im sorry, but from what i saw, he was anything but a defencive liability on this team.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...0&postcount=18

12-12-2003, 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueBlue4life
uh pavel bure played very good for us, he always hussled and he was not a liabillity by any means... he had like what 31 goals in 50 games?? i'd take him over half the guys that are on the team right now.
The more I look at this, the more it seems Pavel's "defensive issues" were limited to his time in Florida. Suffice to say, Duane Sutter coached the Panthers during Pavel's first full season there, while Mike Keenan coached the remainder of Pavel's tenure there. One must wonder if Keenan had anything to do with the temporary changes in Pavel's game. He also coached Bure in his final year in Vancouver. It might not be such a coincidence. While we can speculate the reasons, we can see the issue only pertained to his time in Florida.

Pavel suddenly returned to playing solid defensively upon joining the Rangers. They were coached by Bryan Trottier, whose coaching resume consists of only one season behind the Rangers' bench. I highly doubt Trottier was responsible for teaching Pavel anything defensively, especially considering Pavel had proven he could play smart hockey at both ends of the ice in Vancouver. I still have yet to actually look at his years in Florida, but we have established he was solid defensively in New York. Pavel was always capable of smart defensive play, and does not receive credit for playing strong defensively for the majority of his career.

At the end of his career, despite playing on one leg, Pavel was still a fierce competitor at both ends of the ice. He certainly deserves credit for that.

This was posted a few months after Pavel's last game. When asked whether Pavel would ever play again, this was one poster's response:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ad.php?t=14040

09-24-2003, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27*
Quote:
Originally Posted by OILFAN
Is Pavel going to play at all this year? Does it look like his knees will force him to retire?
He failed his physical at the start of training camp and was named to be inelligable to play by team doctors.

He's not going to play. He has pain when he walks let alone skates.
This post, written in 2004, describes just what condition Pavel was in during mid-2002:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1&postcount=16

01-04-2004, 05:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Orr's Knees
A couple of years ago I waited for Bure after a game, hoping to get his autograph. He was nice enough to stop by; but I noticed he was limping. I asked if he was injured, and he said "No, it's always like that. I'll just ice the knee for a few hours and will be good to go tomorrow." I think the moral of this story is that he should have retired after his second torn ACL.
He continued to play well defensively (and offensively) for the Rangers despite the complete deterioration of his body. That says more about his character than any of the baseless criticisms we've heard these past few years.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...25&postcount=4

Quote:
Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27*
I think all of us are pulling for a return, the guy was our best player and PRODUCTIVE every game he played for us. We always get screwed like this though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomcatNYR View Post
Nice finds. A lot of people were positively surprised in NY back in the day. Many - if not all - thought Bure would be gliding around the opposing blue line, waiting for a breakaway pass, but he actually did anything but that. The guy was very solid for the Rangers and it's a shame his knees couldn't hold up anymore.
The change was drastic and immediate. As soon as he left the Panthers, his two-way game returned -- even with his worn-down knee. Many here called him one of the best players defensively for the Rangers at the time.


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07-28-2013, 12:42 PM
  #65
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You suggest he was still a cherrypicker in New York, yet people who watched him at the time -- even those who expected his game from Florida to carry over into New York -- reported that his game had undergone a drastic makeover as soon as he dressed for the Rangers:
Next time, try actually reading the post you are quoting. It was all of two sentences long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He absolutely was not a strong two-way player with the Rangers. Maybe he wasn't an outright cherrypicker like he was in Florida, but he was definitely not a strong defensive player.

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07-28-2013, 12:59 PM
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Here's a Tony Gallagher article from 2002 in which Bryan Trottier and Pavel Bure specifically address his changes in style from Florida to New York. Gallagher provides his own assessment. If it was coaching, one can blame Pavel's coaches and maybe management in Florida for changing his game -- not coincidentally, Mike Keenan was Bure's coach in both 1997-98 and 2001-02. I doubt Trottier had any more authority than Keenan did -- Pavel would have played whichever way Keenan had asked him to. Bure's two-way game had been strong in Vancouver as well as in New York; the difference is Bure, in New York, could no longer skate the way he used to on the rush as Glen Sather indicates, reducing his number of breakaways, mellowing his transition game, and forcing him to score by different means. Fortunately, he produced at a pretty decent rate still -- relying on his offensive zone roaming and intelligent positioning:
Quote:
Works Cited:

Campbell, Ken. "Defensive Blunders Sink Leafs ; Bure, Lindros Allowed to Roam Unmolested in Front of Schwab." Toronto Star: 0. Apr 05 2002. ProQuest. Web. 28 July 2013 .

Fitz-Gerald, Sean. "Roaming Rocket Signals Loss to Leafs: Bure Tallies Twice: Blue and White all Black and Blue with Injuries." National Post: 0. Apr 05 2002. ProQuest. Web. 28 July 2013 .

Gallagher, Tony. "Defence Grounds Bure: Trottier's System Keeps Russian Rocket from Breakaway Launch Pad." The Province: 0. Nov 17 2002. ProQuest. Web. 28 July 2013.

Pap, Elliott. "Losers Crack Up Over Crackdown: Slumping Teams Find Obstruction Rule an Easy Target in Hard Times." The Vancouver Sun: 0. Nov 30 2002. ProQuest. Web. 28 July 2013 .
Quote:
Defence grounds Bure: Trottier's system keeps Russian Rocket from breakaway launch pad: [Final Edition]
Gallagher, Tony. The Province [Vancouver, B.C] 17 Nov 2002: A83.


When Rangers head coach Bryan Trottier played with Mike Bossy in Long Island, they formed one of the great dynamic duos in the history of the game.

He should know as well as anyone how two great players who have chemistry together need to be freed up to find their own style to be effective with one another. But going into last night's game with the Canucks, it certainly wasn't happening for Eric Lindros and Pavel Bure.

There are all kinds of explanations for why the two haven't been lighting it up the way they did at the end of last season, not the least of which is the fact Bure is recovering from early-season knee surgery and he's been sick to boot, although he says now he's gained all his weight back.

Rangers GM Glen Sather says simply: "He isn't skating. It's asking a lot for a guy to go through surgery like that and then get sick and be great. It just doesn't happen. It takes time."

These are all good observations. But when you ask Bure how many breakaways he's had this season in the 16 games he'd played before last night, he responded instantly right off the top of his head.

"One."

...

"I have no more individual goals," he says. "All I care is the team wins. I've scored five times 50 goals and I don't need any of that stuff any more. Look at the way Detroit did it last year with all those great players all getting 25 or 30 goals. And Dallas this year. And we're seeing all the checking lines too. Maybe if we're getting all the attention, maybe Petr's (Nedved) line is going to do it. It doesn't matter if I do it. And if I get seven goals in the next five games, maybe nobody will be talking about it any more."

"From Al Arbour and Scotty Bowman and Badger Bob Johnson and all the successful coaches I've been with over the years, that's the way they've had success," says Trottier. "It's not a new turn of the coaching wheel or anything. If you pay attention to defence with fortitude and care, things will eventually happen for you offensively."

...

(Gallagher can be heard weekdays one hour before Canuck games on the Team, Sports radio AM1040.)

tgallagher@pacpress.southam.ca

...

Word count: 695

(Copyright The Province 2002)
Pavel still managed to score 19 goals and 11 assists in 39 games in 2002-03 despite being injured (he was in the final moments in his career) and focusing primarily on defense. That's still not bad production for a player whose knee was buckling every time he skated up the ice.

Here's a brief description of a game in which Bure and Lindros dominated together:
Quote:
Defensive blunders sink Leafs ; Bure, Lindros allowed to roam unmolested in front of Schwab: [Ontario Edition]
Campbell, Ken. Toronto Star [Toronto, Ont] 05 Apr 2002: C02.


...

Rangers 4, Leafs 2

...

Bure scored two on the evening, including the winner at 10: 55 of the third, and Lindros added a single for the Rangers, who remained five points behind the Montreal Canadiens for the final playoff spot in the Eastern Conference. Toronto, meanwhile, squandered another opportunity to gain ground on the Boston Bruins, who lost 2-1 to the New York Islanders in OT, for first in the East. The Leafs are still five points in arrears of the Bruins with five games to go for both teams.

Alexander Mogilny and Mikael Renberg scored for the Leafs, who fell behind 2-0 in the first before tying the score early in the third period.

For the second straight contest, the Leafs surrendered a goal on the first shot of the game. Just 54 seconds in, Lindros muscled Leaf defenceman Cory Cross off the puck behind the net. Lindros' pass out front hit a stick and Bure knocked the puck out of the air past Toronto netminder Corey Schwab.

The Rangers opened a two-goal lead midway through the period when Lindros notched his 34th of the season. The Leafs got caught running around their end and were the picture of confusion when Tom Poti sent the puck to the front of the net. Lindros simply stepped out from behind Schwab and directed it past the goalie with the back of his blade.

...

Word count: 604

Copyright 2002 Toronto Star, All Rights Reserved.
Another article about the same game, and specifically about Bure's ability to roam the offensive zone. He was the first star that night:
Quote:
Roaming Rocket signals loss to Leafs: Bure tallies twice: Blue and white all black and blue with injuries: [Toronto / Late Edition]
Fitz-Gerald, Sean. National Post [Don Mills, Ont] 05 Apr 2002: B3.


sfitzgerald@nationalpost.com

RANGERS 4 MAPLE LEAFS 2

TORONTO - Not long after his game against the Toronto Maple Leafs, Pavel Bure, the night's first star, was trying to get a signal on his cellphone from the depths of the Air Canada Centre.

"It says it is out of service here," the Russian Rocket said to teammate Theo Fleury.

"What is 'roaming?' "

Roaming, in a non-cellular sense, is what Bure did for three periods of hockey against the Maple Leafs.

...

Indeed, Bure and linemate Eric Lindros were both allowed free range around the Toronto net for most of the net.

...

And in the end, all it took was Bure -- big in name but small in stature -- to beat up and exploit the patchwork lineup the Maple Leafs have been forced to field.

...

Word count: 827

(Copyright National Post 2002)
Here's a very interesting quote from Carolina Hurricanes reporter Luke Decock, mentioned in the miscellaneous segment of Elliott Pap's 2002 article about obstruction:
Quote:
Losers crack up over crackdown: Slumping teams find obstruction rule an easy target in hard times: [Final C Edition]
Pap, Elliott. The Vancouver Sun [Vancouver, B.C] 30 Nov 2002: G3.


...

In the summer, everyone liked the obstruction crackdown. In the pre-season, when no points or jobs were at stake, everyone preached patience.

But now that certain teams aren't meeting expectations, the howling has begun in earnest.

Toronto Maple Leaf coach Pat Quinn, a lifelong referee-baiter, has a floundering crew on his hands so when captain Mats Sundin is thumbed for hooking Ottawa's 6-foot-9 Zdeno Chara, Quinn doesn't blame his leader, he blames the officials for not calling a dive.

"A 300-bloody-pound defenceman and he's laying down on the ice," blusters Quinn. "It was a dive. It's unbelievable. However, that's what you get in this business."

...


QUOTABLE: "I'm only getting worried if they want to send me back to Philly." -- Under-achieving Ranger Eric Lindros on talk he might be traded.

"That's what happens when you play a hot hockey team. They get all the breaks and all the calls." -- Hurricane blueliner Bret Hedican after losing 3-2 to the Canucks.

"When Pavel Bure made a hustling, defensive play, it became clear that this was the wrong night to be playing the New York Rangers." - - Raleigh News & Observer reporter Luke Decock goes to the heart of a Carolina loss.

Word count: 1152

(Copyright Vancouver Sun 2002)
When Pavel was at the top of his game defensively, he made his team that much more difficult to play against. Many viewers who had heard about his game in Florida were shocked at the sudden change in Bure's game, though of course we know that the Florida era was an anomaly in a career full of consistent, intelligent two-way play. Reporters from outside of New York saw an occasional glimpse at Pavel's two-way contributions to his new team, hence Decock's reaction. Pavel was one of the most consistent forwards for the Rangers both offensively and defensively as many have attested to above.


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07-28-2013, 01:02 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Next time, try actually reading the post you are quoting. It was all of two sentences long.
I saw the word 'outright' and thought you might have been suggesting he was a more 'subtle' cherrypicker in New York. He was, in fact, the exact opposite of a cherrypicker. Your posts regarding this era have been mostly negative, so I suspected you might have been criticizing him here as well. I was also addressing your assertion that he was "not a strong defensive player." The testimony provided in my response to your post suggests he was a very strong defensive player, and the articles above indicate it was a conscious decision. The changes in his game were addressed publicly in interviews and through observation.

I read your post correctly.


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07-28-2013, 02:43 PM
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Here's a brief glimpse at his knee injuries in the 2002-03 season to give a strong sense of what he was fighting against. Take a look at the dates:
Quote:
Works Cited:

"Bure Injures Knee." Nanaimo Daily News: 0. Sep 25 2002. ProQuest. Web. 28 July 2013 .

"Bure's Injured Knee Fails Rangers Exam." The Globe and Mail: 0. Sep 12 2003. ProQuest. Web. 28 July 2013 .

"Doctor Says Bure was Destined for further Knee Injuries." Nanaimo Daily News: 0. Apr 01 1999. ProQuest. Web. 28 July 2013 .

"Pavel Bure Agent Says Russian Rocket is `facing a very Uncertain Future'." Daily Bulletin: 7. Aug 28 2003. ProQuest. Web. 28 July 2013 .

"Pavel Bure Misses Key Rangers Game Against Arch-Rival Islanders." Whitehorse Star: 21. Mar 18 2003. ProQuest. Web. 28 July 2013 .

"Pavel Bure Undergoes Knee Surgery, should be Back in Two Weeks." Daily Townsman: 6. Sep 27 2002. ProQuest. Web. 28 July 2013 .

Star, News S. "NHL NOTES: Bure Awaits Injury News; Rangers Star Sidelined by Cartilage, Ligament Damage." The Windsor Star: 0. Dec 09 2002. ProQuest. Web. 28 July 2013 .
Quote:
Bure injures knee: [Final Edition]
Nanaimo Daily News [Nanaimo, B.C] 25 Sep 2002: B2.


NEW YORK (AP) -- Pavel Bure hurt his twice rebuilt right knee Tuesday night and the speedy New York Rangers forward is expected to undergo tests to determine the severity of the injury.

Bure, 31, doesn't know how or when he was injured but said the knee started bothering him between the second and third periods of New York's 2-1 overtime exhibition loss to the New Jersey Devils.

"I can't really explain it, it's just sore," Bure said. "Pretty much my whole knee is sore. I just want to make sure everything's fine and we'll find out tomorrow."

The Russian Rocket, whose high-flying offensive game centres around his quickness, didn't have the knee wrapped, nor was ice applied as he spoke to reporters. He had a slight limp as he walked.

"Usually after something happens to your knee you have to wait a few hours," he said.

...

Word count: 214

(Copyright The Daily News (Nanaimo) 2002)
Quote:
Pavel Bure undergoes knee surgery, should be back in two weeks: [Final Edition]
Daily Townsman [Cranbrook, B.C] 27 Sep 2002: 6.


NEW YORK (CP) -- There was good news on Pavel Bure Thursday,

The star winger underwent successful arthroscopic knee Thursday and the New York Rangers learned that the Russian Rocket should only be out two weeks.

Bure, 31, had the surgery to repair a posterior tear of the medial meniscus in his right knee.

...

Word count: 155

(Copyright THE DAILY TOWNSMAN (CRANBROOK) 2002)
Quote:
NHL NOTES: Bure awaits injury news; Rangers star sidelined by cartilage, ligament damage: [Final Edition]
Star News Services. The Windsor Star [Windsor, Ont] 09 Dec 2002

New York Rangers star Pavel Bure will have arthroscopic surgery this week to determine the extent of the injury to his left knee.

The 31-year-old right-winger, one of the NHL's most prolific scorers, does not know how long he will be out.

"They have to wait until my knee settles down a little and the swelling goes down," he said after Boston beat New York 4-1 Sunday.

"After that, they will schedule the surgery."

Bure underwent an MRI exam Saturday and the Rangers placed him on injured reserve.

Team spokesman John Rosasco said Sunday the test showed torn cartilage and a sprain of the medial collateral ligament.

The test for damage to the anterior cruciate ligament was inconclusive.

Bure was hurt Friday night in a 4-1 loss to Buffalo.

...

Word count: 230

(Copyright Windsor Star 2002)
Quote:
Pavel Bure misses key Rangers game against arch-rival Islanders: [Final Edition]
Whitehorse Star [Whitehorse, Y.T] 18 Mar 2003: 21.


NEW YORK (AP) -- Rangers forward Pavel Bure didn't play Monday night because of recurring problems with his oft-injured knees.

The decision that Bure would stay off the ice was made Sunday when the speedy right wing met with coach-general manager Glen Sather. Sather said after the Rangers defeated the New York Islanders 1-0 that he and Bure mutually decided to scratch the right wing from the game.

"He had no swelling in the knee," Sather said. "It's bothering him. It could be psychosomatic -- he's had three operations in that knee this year."

Bure has been limited to just 39 games this season. He has five goals and four assists in 12 games since he returned from a 31-game absence following simultaneous operations on each knee.

...

Sather asked Bure during practice on Sunday if his knee hurt. Sather was concerned with Bure's recent play and Bure responded that he was troubled by his knee.

"There are a lot of things that happen to people that you can't put a finger on," Sather said. "Mentally you feel it's not 100 per cent so it becomes a problem. Whether it's physically or not, it's still a problem. He could be fine in the next couple of days."

Bure had torn cartilage in his left knee repaired on Dec. 16, 10 days after being injured in a loss at Buffalo. He also had exploratory surgery on his right knee then.

Bure, who has played in six NHL all-star games, missed the first three games of the season because of illness. He also had arthroscopic surgery on his right knee on Sept. 26 after injuring it during a preseason game.

The league's leading goal scorer in 2000 and 2001, Bure has 19 goals -- including one on a penalty shot Thursday at Ottawa -- and 30 points this season. He had a team-leading 14 goals at the time of his injury.

...

Word count: 455

(Copyright THE WHITEHORSE DAILY STAR 2003)
Shockingly, the knee issues were mishandled entirely after he was traded from Vancouver. Here's an article from 1999:

Quote:
Doctor says Bure was destined for further knee injuries: [Final Edition]
Nanaimo Daily News [Nanaimo, B.C] 01 Apr 1999: B2.

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. -- Pavel Bure's reconstructed right knee was destined for a series of injuries when he joined the Florida Panthers Jan. 17, according to the team orthopedist.

Since the trade, Bure twice injured his knee, and Monday had a second reconstructive surgery in Birmingham, Ala. His first reconstruction was in 1995, after he tore his anterior cruciate ligament with Vancouver.

Dr. David Attarian told the Palm Beach Post there were problems with the knee when he first examined Bure -- three games after the goal-scoring threat arrived from the Canucks.

"That's all news to me," Panthers general manager Bryan Murray said when told of Attarian's comments.

Attarian said his examination revealed Bure's first reconstruction was already stretching when the Panthers signed him, and "that set him up for a series of injuries."

Bure, who was in Moscow when the Panthers made the trade, joined the team on a road trip in New York. The team asked New Jersey Devils physicians to look at Bure's knee and they said he was fine. Attarian examined Bure when the team returned to Florida.

Bryan Murray said there was little difference in Bure's healthy and reconstructed knee when the Panthers first examined him.

"He was fit and healthy enough to play," Murray said.


...

Word count: 336

(Copyright The Daily News (Nanaimo) 1999)
Quote:
Pavel Bure agent says Russian Rocket is `facing a very uncertain future': [Final Edition]
Daily Bulletin [Kimberley, B.C] 28 Aug 2003: 7.


...

Mike Gillis, the Kingston, Ont., agent for Bure, has confirmed that his New York Rangers client is having all kinds of difficulty with his knees despite an extensive workout regime and weeks of physiotherapy since he stopped playing last season.

Bure will report to the Rangers training camp for physicals but playing at any time this year is extremely unlikely.

"Pavel is facing a very uncertain future right now," said Gillis, who became Bure's agent when he was still a Canuck and worked out the player's present contract which still has this year to run at $10 million US.

"He's worked extremely hard and he's in phenomenal shape, as always, but skating is a real problem. He's having all kinds of problems pushing off, he can't pivot on his right knee at all, and skating and turning right now make it pretty difficult."

...

Word count: 632

(Copyright THE DAILY BULLETIN (KIMBERLEY) 2003)
Quote:
Bure's injured knee fails Rangers exam
The Globe and Mail [Toronto, Ont] 12 Sep 2003: S.3.


Right winger Pavel Bure's injured right knee failed a team physical examination yesterday, and the New York Rangers declared him medically unable to play.

"I have been through surgeries so many times and I always want to come back and play, and I still want to come back and play right now," the 32-year-old Bure said.

...

Word count: 90

All material copyright Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. or its licensors. All rights reserved.
Throughout his time in Florida and New York, Pavel played with a mangled knee. By the time he was in New York, his knee had been nearly destroyed. He deserves a ton of credit for battling through his injuries and working hard in New York to be the best player he could possibly be in all three zones. He was enormously driven and team-oriented, and his time in New York and Vancouver reflect that.


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07-28-2013, 03:06 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Wrath View Post
Not accounting for era at all is even more ridiculous than blindly taking adjusted stats/goals.

If Ovechkin or Stamkos scored 80 goals in one of the 2010-2012 years when scoring was flirting with DPE levels (i exclude most recent season because it was a half season, and future seasons due to possible future rule changes) I would consider that the most impressive goalscoring season ever.


That said I'd still take Gretzky's 92 goal season over Bure's 58 goal season, partially because I think Bure's season is overrated and partially because I think adjusted stats unfairly hits the most offensively productive players of "high scoring eras".
All this proves really is that you cant compare or measure players from different eras. Too many variables. Bure was a damn good goal scorer in his time, Gretzky in his....Jagr in his, Richard in his.

Leave it at that people.

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07-28-2013, 03:44 PM
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All this proves really is that you cant compare or measure players from different eras. Too many variables. Bure was a damn good goal scorer in his time, Gretzky in his....Jagr in his, Richard in his.

Leave it at that people.
Of course you can - and everyone does.

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07-29-2013, 10:07 AM
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As always the Bure as cherrypicker meme is wildly overstated.

He wasn't that bad for much of his career, and as for Florida.. who could blame him?

That was a terrible, terrible, hockey team.

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08-03-2013, 01:20 AM
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weak defence or not, I found his play in Florida a great one man show!

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08-03-2013, 07:10 PM
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Im not gonna lie. I like Gretzky in the 80s, but then he was traded. And shortly thereafter brought the Russians. I was a big fan of Mogilny and then this guy came along. The speed dynamic was a big game changer. But let's be honest. This isn't about pure speed. It's about marrying high end speed with high end skill. And that's what the Russians, and Bure in particular, represented. Have we see this marraige since?

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08-04-2013, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
It could have depended on what kind of elite center. Perhaps he wouldn't have worked magic with the Oates kind of type because he wasn't a Brett Hull kind of player, but he could have worked it with a Fedorov or a Lindros or a Forsberg.
As history proved, Bure was better off having a strong passing dman. In Vancouver for example he and Lumme were a match made in heaven.



Quote:
Trevor Kidd played 28 games in 9900 as a back up kind of goalie and had a worser GAA than all Vernon, Shtalenkov and Burke. He even spent a game in the AHL with the Louisville Panthers. If that's a "really good season" by his own standars, then fine, but come on. Whitney and Kozlov had good seasons, but it wasn't anything spectacular. And Kozlov benefitted a lot more from Bure than Bure did from Kozlov.
Kidd was their starter for the first quarter of the season and got hurt, forcing the Panthers to trade for Vernon. That game in the AHL was most likely a conditioning stint. It was Kidd at that point who was the team MVP, not Bure. In fact, Kidd was the best goaltender in the NHL and the Vezina frontrunner at the time of the injury. Your failure to know this really calls into your question you knowledge of the team. You also missed my point about Whitney and Kozlov so much it hardly warrants a response. Bure's production basically happened in a vacuum. Whitney and Kozlov had a much greater impact on the team's fortunes than Bure's did. The evidence is the very next season when they both regressed, Bure improved, and the team as a whole was terrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the edler View Post
Also, if you don't think Bure's production made an impact on his team's success then I don't even know what to say. I guess watch the 94 playoffs? The Dallas series for example. And he scored 14 GW goals for the Panthers in 9900. But no, those goals probably didn't help his team to win at all.

When Bure came to Florida in the 9899 season and scored 13 goals in 11 games the team started to win games immediately, then he went injured. Next season when he was back Florida suddenly was a playoff team. But oh well.
I do not disagree about his Vancouver years, but those are so far out of the scope of the topic that it is not worth mentioning. The topic is the 2000 season, I hardly see how your contribution has any relevance. The Panthers made the playoffs in 2000 in part because of Bure, but mostly because of Kidd and then when he got injured, Vernon.

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08-04-2013, 07:58 AM
  #75
tombombadil
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Man oh man, repeat it until it becomes truth! This is the HOH version of, "Dylan? Can't sing, good songwriter, though." I've heard that from people who haven't listened to anything aside from radio play/soundtrack'ers... Knocking on Heaven's Door, Times, etc. Truth is, he sings just fine, tone is spot on, decent range in his youth..... wrote some silly-assed ****, too!

Anyways, Bure....

Let's look at those two Panther's seasons as what they are - consecutive. 117 goals in 156 games in one of the lowest scoring sets of years since wayyyyy back when. With sub par linemates. Just adjusting this to era alone, these two years are up there with ANYONE's best two. Give this little Russian Paul Coffey to play with, or Stan Mikita, or St. Louis, or Trottier, or Lafontaine, and he'd be a clear step ahead, in a two year peak sense.

This little peak of Bure's, on knees that were ready to fall apart, is arguably the greatest pure goalscoring peak there is.

So, he didn't backcheck. Fine. It sure gets said a lot, even with the same phrasings. As though Goebbels was involved somewhere.

I won't say he backchecked a lot. But how come this doesn't get said, as though its an asterisk with a disclaimer beside the season print out saying, "doesn't really count, didn't backcheck", for guys like Ovie, the young Hull, Stamkos, Mario, Bossy? I think you have to go back to the old Hull to find an elite, ELITE, goalscoring period in a ELITE goalscorer's career, where that goalscorer was at all noted for his backchecking.

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