HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Bure's 58 goals in 99-2000

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-04-2013, 04:08 PM
  #76
the edler
Inimitable
 
the edler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,412
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
The evidence is the very next season when they both regressed, Bure improved, and the team as a whole was terrible.
I'm curious to know how a 0.72 GPG and a 1.12 PPG is an improvement over a 0.78 GPG and a 1.27 PPG?

Quote:
The Panthers made the playoffs in 2000 in part because of Bure, but mostly because of Kidd and then when he got injured, Vernon.
Yeah sure. That era made any decent goalie look good. Fact is Floridas defense was much better and much more consistent in 99–00 than in 00–01. In 99–00 Svehla, Spacek, Hedican, Laus and Simpson all played 76+ games. Svehla, Spacek and Simpson played all 82. In 00–01 Spacek was gone and Laus and Simpson played 25 games each. Those guys were replaced by Anders Eriksson, Lance Pitlick and John Jakopin...

the edler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-04-2013, 05:13 PM
  #77
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,333
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Where does it rank all-time? Could it be considered as the greatest individual "goal scoring" season ever?

Considering he scored 58:

a) in 74 games
b) in a very low scoring era
c) with poor linemates on a crappy Panthers team

pro-rated:

82/74 gp x 58 goals = 64.3 goals

GPG ratio (81-82/99-00 season) = 6.952/4.505 x 64.3 goals = 99.2 goals


Just imagine if he had Oates at centre in the early 90s.
I think it's impressive, and made more so that Florida finished well in the regular season. I think it is better than 59 in 2001 when the Panthers were a horrible team. Scoring a ton of goals on a team that's good is always more impressive than when the team is bad. But you have to remember, he had Viktor Kozlov as his center, who was no slouch at that time.

What makes it more impressive as well was the fact that he nearly won the Art Ross too. Yes, Jagr missed 1/4 of the season, but still, you are going against the rest of the NHL field. It may well be his best goal scoring season although 1994 he also led the NHL in goals with 60 and this was prior to his knee surgery where I think he was more dangerous and diverse with how he scored.

The fact that the 2nd best player that year had 44 goals also makes this season stand out like a sore thumb. Had he played a more two-way game it would be even more impressive, or even similar to what Stamkos is doing (not GREAT defensively, but not bad either).

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-04-2013, 06:13 PM
  #78
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,943
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think it's impressive, and made more so that Florida finished well in the regular season. I think it is better than 59 in 2001 when the Panthers were a horrible team. Scoring a ton of goals on a team that's good is always more impressive than when the team is bad. But you have to remember, he had Viktor Kozlov as his center, who was no slouch at that time.

What makes it more impressive as well was the fact that he nearly won the Art Ross too. Yes, Jagr missed 1/4 of the season, but still, you are going against the rest of the NHL field. It may well be his best goal scoring season although 1994 he also led the NHL in goals with 60 and this was prior to his knee surgery where I think he was more dangerous and diverse with how he scored.

The fact that the 2nd best player that year had 44 goals also makes this season stand out like a sore thumb. Had he played a more two-way game it would be even more impressive, or even similar to what Stamkos is doing (not GREAT defensively, but not bad either).
i don't know about that. to my recollection, viktor kozlov was, had been, and always would be a passenger.

kozlov put up 70 points the year he was bure's center. in no other season did he ever score more than 56 points. the year he was bure's center, he had 53 assists, which he only surpassed in total points twice in his entire career-- and, not coincidentally, one of them was a year he was on ovechkin and backstrom's RW.

svehla, jaro spacek, ray whitney, all legitimately useful players. bure made kozlov though.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-04-2013, 07:42 PM
  #79
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,333
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i don't know about that. to my recollection, viktor kozlov was, had been, and always would be a passenger.

kozlov put up 70 points the year he was bure's center. in no other season did he ever score more than 56 points. the year he was bure's center, he had 53 assists, which he only surpassed in total points twice in his entire career-- and, not coincidentally, one of them was a year he was on ovechkin and backstrom's RW.

svehla, jaro spacek, ray whitney, all legitimately useful players. bure made kozlov though.
They did call Kozlov the "fiddler" for a reason though. Marvelous stick handler and a guy who was very much like a poor man's version of even Alexei Kovalev. Meaning, he was even more inconsistent and erratic than him. That year he was good though. The supporting cast for Florida that year was decent. But Bure wasn't a guy who needed a strong center. I don't think an Oates or a Gretzky make a whole lot of difference. He carried the puck a lot - a LOT. He skated with the puck and held onto for long periods of time. I don't think a supreme playmaker gives him even more gaudy stats. He wasn't a Brett Hull type who got in the open slot and waited for the pass to one-time it.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-06-2013, 08:48 AM
  #80
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,526
vCash: 500
Bure seemed to do well with dispatchers like Kozlov and Zhamnov, although a power forward like Lindros was also a good option.

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-07-2013, 12:51 PM
  #81
Mulletman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 638
vCash: 500
How about Brett Hull in 1990-91 for most dominant goal scoring season ever? 35 goals more than the 2nd guy. Gretzky "only" had 28 more than the 2nd guy when he scored 92...

Mulletman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 01:01 PM
  #82
coldsteelonice84
Registered User
 
coldsteelonice84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 25,253
vCash: 10592
I loved Bure with the Panthers, but let's be honest, he cherry picked all the time and a ton of those goals were breakaways, which is fine because he was a one man offense on a bad team, but it doesn't compare to some of the other great scoring seasons.

coldsteelonice84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 01:52 PM
  #83
billybudd
5 Mike Rupps
 
billybudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 9,884
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i don't know about that. to my recollection, viktor kozlov was, had been, and always would be a passenger.

kozlov put up 70 points the year he was bure's center. in no other season did he ever score more than 56 points. the year he was bure's center, he had 53 assists, which he only surpassed in total points twice in his entire career-- and, not coincidentally, one of them was a year he was on ovechkin and backstrom's RW.

svehla, jaro spacek, ray whitney, all legitimately useful players. bure made kozlov though.
Kozlov? No. Kozlov had a very specific problem: he didn't give a crap much of the time. I know I'm playing into the "lazy Russian" stereotype here, but Kozlov was as good as he wanted to be, as frequently as he wanted to be, which was seldom.

But if he felt like it, Kozlov was perfectly capable of creating offense on his own. The guy should have been an 80 point player year in year out. It's not out of the question that he just worked harder than usual in the year in question, particularly if that was a contract year, which I think it was.

billybudd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 02:15 PM
  #84
Gardner McKay
Hey Hey...
 
Gardner McKay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Atlanta
Country: United States
Posts: 9,748
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
So 100 goals in the American Hockey League would be better than Gretzky's 92 goals, then? It's eight more.
An oversimplification of things doesn't prove a point.

__________________
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear or a fool from any direction."
Gardner McKay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 03:28 PM
  #85
Rorschach
Fearful Symmetry
 
Rorschach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Country: United States
Posts: 6,224
vCash: 500
How about 90-91 Tomas Sandstrom's 45 goals in 68 games?

Rorschach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 04:19 PM
  #86
the edler
Inimitable
 
the edler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,412
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
How about 90-91 Tomas Sandstrom's 45 goals in 68 games?
That's being on pace for about 54 goals in 82 games. How is that better than 58 goals in 74 games? Sandström also played with Gretzky in a run and gun league. Bure played with Kozlov in DPE.

the edler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 05:14 PM
  #87
Ishdul
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Country: Lithuania
Posts: 2,617
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clowe Me Maybe View Post
An oversimplification of things doesn't prove a point.
The point is that going off unadjusted numbers is super dumb, and I think he did a fair job in proving it with that example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Kidd was their starter for the first quarter of the season and got hurt, forcing the Panthers to trade for Vernon. That game in the AHL was most likely a conditioning stint. It was Kidd at that point who was the team MVP, not Bure. In fact, Kidd was the best goaltender in the NHL and the Vezina frontrunner at the time of the injury. Your failure to know this really calls into your question you knowledge of the team. You also missed my point about Whitney and Kozlov so much it hardly warrants a response. Bure's production basically happened in a vacuum. Whitney and Kozlov had a much greater impact on the team's fortunes than Bure's did. The evidence is the very next season when they both regressed, Bure improved, and the team as a whole was terrible.
It's not exactly surprising that a team with a superstar and a very respectable supporting cast does well and then a team with the same superstar and a very weak supporting cast does poorly. That is not something specific to Bure (it's true with every superstar, really) and it is ridiculous to claim that therefore Kozlov or Whitney had a greater impact on the Panthers. And of course claiming that Bure improved from 2000 to 2001 is pretty suspect. I also don't think the parts about Kidd are particularly meaningful. He had very good stats in a very small sample size that he was incredibly unlikely to maintain, those kinds of guys get MVP talks every year until they inevitably fall off and it really does not hold much relevance to their relation with the other candidates.

Ishdul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-08-2013, 05:17 PM
  #88
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,675
vCash: 500
If I recall correctly, at the half way mark of this said 1999-00 season, Jagr was head of Bure in goals. In fact Jagr already had 32 goals at mid-mark and was on pace for 60 + and 140 + points. In fact he had 32 goals in his first 39 games which extrapolated to the 74 games Bure played and Jagr would have scored 60 goals (all on goalies).

I think Bure only playing 74 games and scoring 58 goals was impressive but he scored 9 empty net goals to Jagr's 0 that season and Jagr himself really slowed down due to injuries when he came back as he only scored 12 goals in his last 24 games back.

Then again a player cannot be credited for the games he didn't play and Bure really had a hot finish that season and almost won the Art Ross despite missing 8 games.

livewell68 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-09-2013, 03:53 AM
  #89
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,943
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
If I recall correctly, at the half way mark of this said 1999-00 season, Jagr was head of Bure in goals. In fact Jagr already had 32 goals at mid-mark and was on pace for 60 + and 140 + points. In fact he had 32 goals in his first 39 games which extrapolated to the 74 games Bure played and Jagr would have scored 60 goals (all on goalies).

I think Bure only playing 74 games and scoring 58 goals was impressive but he scored 9 empty net goals to Jagr's 0 that season and Jagr himself really slowed down due to injuries when he came back as he only scored 12 goals in his last 24 games back.

Then again a player cannot be credited for the games he didn't play and Bure really had a hot finish that season and almost won the Art Ross despite missing 8 games.
it may not be here nor there, but other than the '93 season, all of bure's big scoring years were slow starts but had him going at or near GPG in the second half.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-09-2013, 09:35 AM
  #90
the edler
Inimitable
 
the edler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,412
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Kozlov? No. Kozlov had a very specific problem: he didn't give a crap much of the time. I know I'm playing into the "lazy Russian" stereotype here, but Kozlov was as good as he wanted to be, as frequently as he wanted to be, which was seldom.

But if he felt like it, Kozlov was perfectly capable of creating offense on his own. The guy should have been an 80 point player year in year out. It's not out of the question that he just worked harder than usual in the year in question, particularly if that was a contract year, which I think it was.
Please. Viktor Kozlov was a good player with nice hands and some nice moves and with decent vision, but he had serious limitations as a player. He had no footspeed, played soft with no hustle and had a weak shot. Never ever did he come close to carry a teams offense as a first line player in the NHL. Only because a player is a talented stickhandler doesn't make him a should have been 80 point player every year. Then Kristian Huselius should have been a 90 point player every year, beacause that guy sure could stickhandle and even had some speed to back it up. It's this Kovalev myth all over again. That he was so insanely skilled and would have been one of the best players in the game every year only if he cared.

the edler is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:38 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.