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Who hasn't yet, but will make the HoF as a builder?

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Old
09-02-2013, 07:30 PM
  #26
Killion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Forget builder, Brewer should be in as a player.
Either or (Player or Builder) but ya, he deserves a spot in the HHOF for sure.

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09-02-2013, 08:20 PM
  #27
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Coaches

Pete Green and Cecil Hart.

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09-02-2013, 09:43 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Forget builder, Brewer should be in as a player.
Very arguable, since he left the game right in his prime. If there was a way to combine player and builder he would easily be in there, as would Doug Wilson, but they can't do it that way. Might be a little short on the player end for me though.

But as a builder, for sure. The only thing is Brewer made some powerful enemies. Ironic how the guy who drove him away from the game (Punch Imlach) is in the HHOF but he isn't. But that's how it is with the union guys. You can bet if Ted Lindsay had a borderline HHOF career he would still be sitting on the outside looking in based on his "troublemaking". But Lindsay's career is too good for even the most bias voter to pass up. Unfortunately, you can't say that about Brewer.

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09-04-2013, 01:47 PM
  #29
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I agree, both Keenan and Cherry should get in at one point. Well, it's hall of fame, isn't it?


Last edited by begbeee: 09-04-2013 at 02:08 PM.
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09-04-2013, 08:22 PM
  #30
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Don Cherry should be in.

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09-04-2013, 10:04 PM
  #31
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Lloyd Percival

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09-04-2013, 10:08 PM
  #32
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There is no way Cherry is a "builder". Coaching a strong team for a few years with no success outside of that has never been looked at as being a builder by the HoF committee, nor should it. And Cherry's only attempt to "build" a team (at the junior level, not even professional) was one of he biggest disasters in CHL history.

Appealing to the lowest common denominator on television is not worthy of induction into the Hall of Fame.

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09-04-2013, 10:13 PM
  #33
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Don Cherry

Don Cherry as a media contributor.

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09-04-2013, 10:15 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
There is no way Cherry is a "builder". Coaching a strong team for a few years with no success outside of that has never been looked at as being a builder by the HoF committee, nor should it. And Cherry's only attempt to "build" a team (at the junior level, not even professional) was one of he biggest disasters in CHL history.

Appealing to the lowest common denominator on television is not worthy of induction into the Hall of Fame.
I can see Cherry getting in as a media member, but not as a builder

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09-04-2013, 10:15 PM
  #35
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When hundreds of canadian soldiers gave Don Cherry a standing ovation to the numerous times he went to Afganistan.To many hes an icon to the troops he is appreciated a lot.Don went to Afganistan in his mid 70 yrs old.Even the Division that represented Quebec gave him a loud ovation.You dont have to agree or like him but to working class canadians he is a respected hockey man

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09-04-2013, 10:17 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by thom View Post
When hundreds of canadian soldiers gave Don Cherry a standing ovation to the numerous times he went to Afganistan.To many hes an icon to the troops he is appreciated a lot.Don went to Afganistan in his mid 70 yrs old.Even the Division that represented Quebec gave him a loud ovation.You dont have to agree or like him but to working class canadians he is a respected hockey man
How does this have anything to do with hockey?


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-04-2013 at 10:32 PM. Reason: Politics
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09-04-2013, 10:25 PM
  #37
Canadiens1958
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Bridge

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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
How does this have anything to do with hockey?
Has everything to do with hockey and the role of a media personality acting as a bridge between the game and the core fans.

Like him or not, Don Cherry has been the bridge better than any media personality in the last 30+ years. This has to be recognized.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 09-04-2013 at 10:33 PM. Reason: Qep
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09-04-2013, 10:28 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Has everything to do with hockey and the role of a media personality acting as a bridge between the game and the core fans.

Like him or not, Don Cherry has been the bridge better than any media personality in the last 30+ years. This has to be recognized.
This is making an incredibly biased assumption that the "core fans" all fit some self-similar demographic and have the same viewpoints on complex issues that have nothing to do with the sport of hockey itself.

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09-04-2013, 10:38 PM
  #39
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Don been a tv commentator for 32 yrs in canada and has had a radio program for 20 yrs.Don was a minor pro for nearly 2 decades.His winning percentage as a hc is well over 600.He won championships in all levels in canada including the memorial cup hesbig mouth caused many problems after his firing in Colorado.But its simple to understand he will be in Hall to his decades of broadcasting hockey in canada.You might not like his politics or his values but one thing is he is no hypocrite

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09-04-2013, 11:01 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
This is making an incredibly biased assumption that the "core fans" all fit some self-similar demographic and have the same viewpoints on complex issues that have nothing to do with the sport of hockey itself.
Nope, not really reading that in the op's post there Epsilon. No bias, nor any whitewashing his often times politically incorrect opinions with a broad brimmed brush. Don Cherry I think is deserving of the Foster Hewitt Memorial Award as selected by the NHL Broadcasters Association & presented by the HHOF to sports broadcasters who have made contributions to the game of hockey & broadcasting over their careers. Guys like Mickey Redmond, Harry Neale, Howie Meeker etc.

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09-04-2013, 11:37 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
This is making an incredibly biased assumption that the "core fans" all fit some self-similar demographic ...
This part is obviously correct. Outside of HF, I've never met anyone who's heard of Cherry and I've asked many hockey fans including people at AHL games. Not all hockey fans are HF posters, hockey historians, or live in Canada.

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09-05-2013, 06:32 AM
  #42
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The most recent NHL lockout reinforced for me the impact Brewer had as a builder. Though cast as a negotiation almost solely about revenue sharing and player contract length, I suspect that many years from now the 2012-13 collective bargaining agreement will be seen as one where the players, not the owners, made the single most significant gain. The words "Pension Reform" made most media pundits and fans raise a dubious Spockian eyebrow last winter, but the new, fully superannuated defined benefit plan that ultimately emerged must have made Brewer's ghost raise a triumphant fist. I don't want to exaggerate his impact, but the man's fight many years ago exposed not only the flaws in the pension plan but also the need to keep the issue on the front burner in the future. To me, that's a real legacy that should not be forgotten and the Hall should acknowledge.
Inducting Brewer as a player, IMHO, would be little more than a calculated half-measure intended to divert posterity's gaze from the REAL story.

And while I'm at it, if Eagleson is out, Russ Conway should be in. But that's a discussion for another thread on another day.

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09-05-2013, 07:47 AM
  #43
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Lloyd Percival

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Lloyd Percival
Lloyd Percival is an honoured member of Canada's Sports Hall of Fame:

http://www.sportshall.ca/honoured-me...oured-members/

This reflects his career as an athlete, coach and contributor to sports in general. Hockey was only a limited part of the overall picture. Not sure that it was sufficient.

Basic question would be is simply being futuristic enough or should this attribute be coupled with the ability to convince contemporaries in the Canadian hockey establishment?

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09-05-2013, 07:50 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
There is no way Cherry is a "builder". Coaching a strong team for a few years with no success outside of that has never been looked at as being a builder by the HoF committee, nor should it. And Cherry's only attempt to "build" a team (at the junior level, not even professional) was one of he biggest disasters in CHL history.

Appealing to the lowest common denominator on television is not worthy of induction into the Hall of Fame.
I know he "built" my interest in hockey through the Rock Em Sock Em videos.

A unique contribution, but I think any Canadian born between 1980-1990 that loves hockey at least watched one of them.

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09-05-2013, 07:58 AM
  #45
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Russ Conway and Carl Brewer

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadgerBruce View Post
The most recent NHL lockout reinforced for me the impact Brewer had as a builder. Though cast as a negotiation almost solely about revenue sharing and player contract length, I suspect that many years from now the 2012-13 collective bargaining agreement will be seen as one where the players, not the owners, made the single most significant gain. The words "Pension Reform" made most media pundits and fans raise a dubious Spockian eyebrow last winter, but the new, fully superannuated defined benefit plan that ultimately emerged must have made Brewer's ghost raise a triumphant fist. I don't want to exaggerate his impact, but the man's fight many years ago exposed not only the flaws in the pension plan but also the need to keep the issue on the front burner in the future. To me, that's a real legacy that should not be forgotten and the Hall should acknowledge.
Inducting Brewer as a player, IMHO, would be little more than a calculated half-measure intended to divert posterity's gaze from the REAL story.

And while I'm at it, if Eagleson is out, Russ Conway should be in. But that's a discussion for another thread on another day.
Russ Conway was recognized for his work - 1999 Elmer Ferguson Award.

Carl Brewer. Definitely but how and when? The original Player / Builder dichotomy whether given the original or recent guidelines does not fit Carl Brewer's situation well. This you recognize in your post.

I've felt for a long time that a Founders or Contributors level of recognition should be considered by the HHOF. The Hewitt, Ferguson and Women's recognition is a start but could be expanded a bit.

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09-05-2013, 11:05 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Carl Brewer. Definitely but how and when? The original Player / Builder dichotomy whether given the original or recent guidelines does not fit Carl Brewer's situation well.
Seriously problematical. The optics, how his induction would hold a mirror up to the NHL & previous inductee's in the Builders Category in reflecting badly upon many of them, I just dont see the league wishing to re-visit their pension pension shenanigans with a constant reminder of a Carl Brewer plaque in the Hall of Fame. I mean, they'd really have to dance around that one wouldnt they? Can you imagine what his bio would read? Absolutely casting shame on everyone from Campbell to Smythe, Jack Adams, the Norris clan, Wirtz etc. Remember as well that even after the initial win by the players the NHL appealed the ruling, then several years later found themselves back in court being sued yet again for refusing to pay the widows & orphans of deceased players the benefits they were entitled to and that was just what, 15yrs or so ago? I dont know that Carl Brewer would even want to be included in that company and in fact if he was alive could very well be leading efforts to have a great many of them expelled.

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09-05-2013, 11:16 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Has everything to do with hockey and the role of a media personality acting as a bridge between the game and the core fans.

Like him or not, Don Cherry has been the bridge better than any media personality in the last 30+ years. This has to be recognized.
There are no core fans in europe?

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09-05-2013, 11:20 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Russ Conway was recognized for his work - 1999 Elmer Ferguson Award.

Carl Brewer. Definitely but how and when? The original Player / Builder dichotomy whether given the original or recent guidelines does not fit Carl Brewer's situation well. This you recognize in your post.

I've felt for a long time that a Founders or Contributors level of recognition should be considered by the HHOF. The Hewitt, Ferguson and Women's recognition is a start but could be expanded a bit.
I agree – there are policy issues at play here, though I think they can be dealt with. Let’s look at some facts and possibilities.
Brewer was inducted into the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame, as a builder, in 2002.
http://www.sportshall.ca/honoured-me...carl-brewer-2/
He was inducted into the Finnish Hockey Hall of Fame in 2004. He spent one season in Finland (1968-69) as a Player-Coach, but given he personally played just 20 games, one can surmise that his induction was due largely to his contributions as a builder, though there is no official, category-based designation.
http://vapriikki.fi/jaakiekkomuseo/e...d/brewer_e.htm
In general, I have more respect for halls of fame possessing clear rules, eligibility criteria, and a history of saying “No” rather than “Yes” to popular candidates whose contributions do not stand up to genuine scrutiny. Exclusivity is a virtue often in need of steadfast champions.
But when the exclusion of an individual creates a gaping hole in the linear integrity of the game’s history, I believe an exception to the rules is required. Call it the Hall of Fame “notwithstanding clause” or “extraordinary circumstances policy” or any such similar thing, but every now and again there is compelling reason to essentially “waive the rules.” Such circumstances are very rare, of course.
Interestingly, I found the following information on the Hall’s website:
The Hockey Hall of Fame Board of Directors eliminated the right of the Selection Committee to waive the mandatory three-year waiting period for Induction in the Player Category (except under certain humanitarian circumstances) in 1999, after Wayne Gretzky received such an honour. http://www.hhof.com/htmlinduct/ind02facts.shtml

I can find nothing similar to deal with other (non-player) categories, but the Hall is filled with living, active hockey “builders” who have never really retired at all.

There is another possibility here that might have some merit. The NHLPA, which already presents the Ted Lindsay Award (formerly the Pearson) on an annual basis, could look deeply into its organized labour heart and recognize Brewer by naming after him an award recognizing outstanding service/contributions to the advancement of player rights. The criteria would need some fleshing out, but this might be something worthy of pursuit.

Just a thought.

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09-05-2013, 11:36 AM
  #49
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I know he "built" my interest in hockey through the Rock Em Sock Em videos.

A unique contribution, but I think any Canadian born between 1980-1990 that loves hockey at least watched one of them.
I own #17 and a few others on VHS I found at thrift store. I should watch the VHS ones (I haven't). Mind you, I found all the VHS tapes in Michigan. People here know who he is (but maybe only because most people in SE Michigan also get the CBC).

But Don Cherry is like that slightly bigoted grandparent, except he dresses better, therefore he deserves to be in. I'm sure a lot of people outside of the CBC's range who watch hockey don't know who Foster Hewitt is either.

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09-05-2013, 12:23 PM
  #50
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Good Points

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Seriously problematical. The optics, how his induction would hold a mirror up to the NHL & previous inductee's in the Builders Category in reflecting badly upon many of them, I just dont see the league wishing to re-visit their pension pension shenanigans with a constant reminder of a Carl Brewer plaque in the Hall of Fame. I mean, they'd really have to dance around that one wouldnt they? Can you imagine what his bio would read? Absolutely casting shame on everyone from Campbell to Smythe, Jack Adams, the Norris clan, Wirtz etc. Remember as well that even after the initial win by the players the NHL appealed the ruling, then several years later found themselves back in court being sued yet again for refusing to pay the widows & orphans of deceased players the benefits they were entitled to and that was just what, 15yrs or so ago? I dont know that Carl Brewer would even want to be included in that company and in fact if he was alive could very well be leading efforts to have a great many of them expelled.
Appreciate your points.

Still Russ Conway was honoured with the Elmer Ferguson Award in 1999 and he did not cast the owners and other insiders in a favourable light. Others who gave Carl Brewer a voice either are or will be honoured in a similar fashion.

Similarly greats like Ted Lindsay, Doug Harvey and others who started the players movement are in. Granted in some instances it would have impossible to keep them out. Jim Thomson's exclusion could be viewed as being linked to his role with Lindsay and Harvey.

Carl Brewer leading efforts to have certain members expelled? Perhaps but Carl brewer was a realist as well. Multiple expulsions will not happen. Carl Brewer being in the Hall and thumbing his nose at his adversaies being might have a greater impact.

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