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MLD 2013 Line-up Assassination Thread

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Old
08-11-2013, 01:14 PM
  #101
Wrigley
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Sure Tanti sucked as a fighter but he was 5'9" and game taking on heavyweights Phil Housley and Marty McSorley in the same year, how many other guys can say that eh?
"heavyweights Phil Housley" was a skill player who had 1232 points and only had 822 Pims in almost 1500 (1495) games. He was not a heavyweight.

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08-11-2013, 01:48 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Hawkman View Post
"heavyweights Phil Housley" was a skill player who had 1232 points and only had 822 Pims in almost 1500 (1495) games. He was not a heavyweight.
I was being totally sarcastic.

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08-11-2013, 02:13 PM
  #103
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Sure Tanti sucked as a fighter but he was 5'9" and game taking on heavyweights Phil Housley and Marty McSorley in the same year, how many other guys can say that eh?
....so he was no catalyst goon then?

See.....two can play this stupid argument forever.

Shack was a wingnut with better than average offensive skills and Tanti was a gunner who would stand up for himself.

WHHHHOOOOOOPPPP

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08-11-2013, 02:28 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
....so he was no catalyst goon then?

See.....two can play this stupid argument forever.

Shack was a wingnut with better than average offensive skills and Tanti was a gunner who would stand up for himself.

WHHHHOOOOOOPPPP
Well i won't hold Boston's SC win over my Canucks when I do the rankings and Shack will make up less than 1% of my decision on your team anyways.

Face it, you wouldn't have won without Vancouver's own Milan Lucic.

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08-11-2013, 04:32 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
4. Crocodiles' 4th line of Moose Goheen - Ted Hampson - Bob MacMillan
That is a really good one.

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Old
08-11-2013, 04:34 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Rob Scuderi View Post
Here's the vsX scores for wingers based on six best seasons, the same disclaimers apply. Let me know if anyone's missing.

1. Herb Cain - 75.7
2. Eddie Wiseman - 75.1
3. Johnny Gagnon - 73.65
4. Steve Sullivan - 71.15
5. Joe Carveth - 69.04
6. Doc Romnes - 67.94
7. Alex Semin - 67.75
8. Cory Stillman - 67.66
9. Petr Sykora - 67.58
10. Thomas Vanek - 67.56
11. Vinny Prospal - 67.45
12. Alex Shibicky - 67.27
13. Grant Warwick - 66.72
14. Slava Kozlov - 66.22
15. Mud Bruneteau - 66.21
16. Jason Pominville - 65.45
17. Andre Boudrias - 63.99
18. Bob MacMillan - 61.02
19. Anton Stastny - 60.82
20. Steve Vickers - 60.2
21. Dimitri Khristich - 60.04
22. Bob Gracie - 59.94
23. Loui Eriksson - 59.82
24. Joe Lamb - 59.26
25. Tony Tanti - 58.64
26. Mac Colville - 58.59
27. Valeri Kamensky - 58.58
28. Jeff Friesen - 58.09
29. Jimmy Peters - 57.9
30. Charlie Sands - 56.37
31. Blaine Stoughton - 56.28
32. Hakan Loob - 56.21
33. Carson Cooper - 55.85
34. Scott Young - 55.57
35. Nick Mickoski - 55.3
36. Dutch Hiller - 55.29
37. Murray Craven - 54.29
38. Ron Duguay - 54.37
39. Baldy Cotton - 54.35
40. Craig Simpson - 54.34
41. Ulf Dahlen - 54.09
42. Dustin Brown - 54.07
43. Mike Knuble - 53.72
44. Bill Fairbairn - 53.24
45. Mikael Renberg - 53.24
46. Steve Payne - 52.58
47. Don Lever - 52.47
48. Scott Mellanby - 51.96
49. Adam Deadmarsh - 51.88
50. Tony McKegney - 51.01
51. Shayne Corson - 50.96
52. Don Maloney - 50.92
53. Wally Hergesheimer - 50.32
54. Darcy Tucker - 50.18
55. Keith Crowder - 50.09
56. Claude Larose - 49.99
57. Wildor Larochelle - 49.72
58. Chico Maki - 49.56
59. David Backes - 49.52
60. Alex Burrows - 49.43
61. Petri Skriko - 48.77
62. Butch Keeling - 48.76
63. Cliff Koroll - 48.32
64. Wayne Babych - 48.28
65. Niklas Sundstrom - 46.08
66. Eddie Shack - 45.7
67. Nick Libett - 45.26
68. Milan Lucic - 44.4
69. Steve Konowalchuk - 42.87
70. Curt Fraser - 42.04
71. Pat Flatley - 40.55
72. Jim Peplinski - 40.43
73. Shawn Burr - 40.42
74. Marian Stastny - 39.0
75. Randy McKay - 38.93
76. Bill Collins - 35.18
77. Rich Preston - 33.7
78. Andre Pronovost - 33.56
79. Darren McCarty - 33.0
80. Duane Sutter - 32.18
81. Kelly Buchberger - 29.84
82. Anders Kallur - 28.47
83. Dave Reid - 28.08
84. Dave Tippett - 25.23
I think it's pretty clear from these numbers that Eddie Wiseman is the best offensive winger WHO PLAYED IN THE NHL in the MLD. (IMO, the two Euros on Regina might be the best two wingers in the draft, though there are what-ifs with both of them).

Herb Cain's numbers are obviously greatly inflated by having his two big seasons during the two worst War years. I was thinking of a crude way to normalize this. What would his numbers look like if you took his scores in 1944 and 1945 and arbitrarily gave him the score he got in his third best season? It's a way to cut the 1944 and 1945 explosions over garbage competition down to size... but you aren't overly cutting them down as you are still assuming they are as good as his best year that isn't completely tainted.

Gagnon has strong numbers, but of course, he's aided by being the third wheel of the Joliat-Morenz-Gagnon line, so it's hard to tell how good he actually is.

The VS-X numbers (like all percentile scores) tend to hurt second tier pre-expansion players compared to second tier post-expansion players - and by the time you get to the MLD, basically everyone is "second tier." So I think the gap between Wiseman and Sullivan is at least a little bit larger than these numbers show.

While we're at it - look at the Vs-X numbers of Grant Warwick! He's a glue guy, but his numbers are as good as a lot of offense-only wingers here. And he played during the Original 6 - the period most brutal to percentile scores of second tier scorers. Looking at this, the man absolutely deserves a permanent spot on ATD 4th lines, and should never fall to the MLD again.

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08-11-2013, 04:55 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
While we're at it - look at the Vs-X numbers of Grant Warwick! He's a glue guy, but his numbers are as good as a lot of offense-only wingers here. And he played during the Original 6 - the period most brutal to percentile scores of second tier scorers. Looking at this, the man absolutely deserves a permanent spot on ATD 4th lines, and should never fall to the MLD again.
I'm surprised at how good he looks. Bob Gracie is another guy that looks better than I expected, and fits in that category of being a secondary pre-expansion scorer. He also brings decent defensive play to the table. I would switch him and Scanlan as 4th line LW if I was Velo(although I'm a big hater of Scanlan).

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08-11-2013, 05:03 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I'm surprised at how good he looks. Bob Gracie is another guy that looks better than I expected, and fits in that category of being a secondary pre-expansion scorer. He also brings decent defensive play to the table. I would switch him and Scanlan as 4th line LW if I was Velo(although I'm a big hater of Scanlan).
I found the one article from the 1930s that was throwing out names of candidates for the "best player of all time," and Scanlan was one of the names they threw out as an "old-timer" candidate. But I've never seen anything else that would suggest he was anywhere close to that highly thought of, so I almost wonder if that article, written decades after he retired, confused him with someone else (perhaps his linemate Trihey?)

If you want a gritty 4th line, I think you take Scanlan over Gracie though, right? Gracie has some defensive chops, but in a gentlemanly/soft way I think. Gracie would be a good finesse third liner though.

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08-11-2013, 05:41 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think it's pretty clear from these numbers that Eddie Wiseman is the best offensive winger WHO PLAYED IN THE NHL in the MLD. (IMO, the two Euros on Regina might be the best two wingers in the draft, though there are what-ifs with both of them).

Herb Cain's numbers are obviously greatly inflated by having his two big seasons during the two worst War years. I was thinking of a crude way to normalize this. What would his numbers look like if you took his scores in 1944 and 1945 and arbitrarily gave him the score he got in his third best season? It's a way to cut the 1944 and 1945 explosions over garbage competition down to size... but you aren't overly cutting them down as you are still assuming they are as good as his best year that isn't completely tainted.

Gagnon has strong numbers, but of course, he's aided by being the third wheel of the Joliat-Morenz-Gagnon line, so it's hard to tell how good he actually is.

The VS-X numbers (like all percentile scores) tend to hurt second tier pre-expansion players compared to second tier post-expansion players - and by the time you get to the MLD, basically everyone is "second tier." So I think the gap between Wiseman and Sullivan is at least a little bit larger than these numbers show.

While we're at it - look at the Vs-X numbers of Grant Warwick! He's a glue guy, but his numbers are as good as a lot of offense-only wingers here. And he played during the Original 6 - the period most brutal to percentile scores of second tier scorers. Looking at this, the man absolutely deserves a permanent spot on ATD 4th lines, and should never fall to the MLD again.
How so, at first glance the small numbers of games and smaller numbers of teams seems to help the older guys a bit here, at least when assists were just starting out and keeping overall scoring numbers down a bit.

Also while the vsX in overall scoring is one metric some of the wingers here were known more as pure goal scorers, ie Tanti and would show much better in a vsX goal scoring metric.

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08-11-2013, 05:52 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
While we're at it - look at the Vs-X numbers of Grant Warwick! He's a glue guy, but his numbers are as good as a lot of offense-only wingers here. And he played during the Original 6 - the period most brutal to percentile scores of second tier scorers. Looking at this, the man absolutely deserves a permanent spot on ATD 4th lines, and should never fall to the MLD again.
Keep in mind, Warwick played during the war, so his numbers would be a little inflated. You're still right that he should probably be an ATD 4th liner, but his offense isn't that impressive.

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Old
08-11-2013, 06:45 PM
  #111
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Well i won't hold Boston's SC win over my Canucks when I do the rankings and Shack will make up less than 1% of my decision on your team anyways.

Face it, you wouldn't have won without Vancouver's own Milan Lucic.
What the.....? Dude, that was 3 SC's ago, let it go.....

But if you really want to know, it was because of Thomas that we won the Cup. Period.

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08-11-2013, 06:49 PM
  #112
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What the.....? Dude, that was 3 SC's ago, let it go.....

But if you really want to know, it was because of Thomas that we won the Cup. Period.
I know, I was just ribbing you, Thomas was the difference in that series but if we had some grit like Lucic it sure would have helped our cause, something we have still yet to address.

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08-11-2013, 11:01 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think it's pretty clear from these numbers that Eddie Wiseman is the best offensive winger WHO PLAYED IN THE NHL in the MLD. (IMO, the two Euros on Regina might be the best two wingers in the draft, though there are what-ifs with both of them).
The only thing about Wiseman is, the spots he ranked in scoring on his own team are pretty weak compared to a lot of players whose percentages VsX are worse than his. And VsX is just a piece of the puzzle. One of the other pieces is how much the player carried or was carried by other players.

Quote:
Herb Cain's numbers are obviously greatly inflated by having his two big seasons during the two worst War years. I was thinking of a crude way to normalize this. What would his numbers look like if you took his scores in 1944 and 1945 and arbitrarily gave him the score he got in his third best season? It's a way to cut the 1944 and 1945 explosions over garbage competition down to size... but you aren't overly cutting them down as you are still assuming they are as good as his best year that isn't completely tainted.
I had a system for this already. I looked at the players who were gone for the war, and calculated what percentage players like Cain, Carr, etc typically scored in relation to them. Then I simply simulated "grossed up" point totals for the Bentleys, Schmidt, etc, and determined what the 2nd place scorer likely would have scored, considering Cain scored 94, for example. Then all scores were based on that score instead of the actual #2.

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Gagnon has strong numbers, but of course, he's aided by being the third wheel of the Joliat-Morenz-Gagnon line, so it's hard to tell how good he actually is.
Only in his best and 4th-best seasons (among his best 6).

Quote:
While we're at it - look at the Vs-X numbers of Grant Warwick! He's a glue guy, but his numbers are as good as a lot of offense-only wingers here. And he played during the Original 6 - the period most brutal to percentile scores of second tier scorers. Looking at this, the man absolutely deserves a permanent spot on ATD 4th lines, and should never fall to the MLD again.
You're forgetting he played during the war.

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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I'm surprised at how good he looks. Bob Gracie is another guy that looks better than I expected, and fits in that category of being a secondary pre-expansion scorer. He also brings decent defensive play to the table. I would switch him and Scanlan as 4th line LW if I was Velo(although I'm a big hater of Scanlan).
Gracie was a guy who seemed to surprise a few people two MLDs ago. Thanks to TDMM for calling him "the worst first liner offensively" back then

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Old
08-12-2013, 08:42 AM
  #114
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I know, I was just ribbing you, Thomas was the difference in that series but if we had some grit like Lucic it sure would have helped our cause, something we have still yet to address.
Got that right.....every team needs a guy or two like him.

But Looch, when he's on,(ie....skating HARD .....whenever he really uses his unheralded speed he hits like a locomotive....seriously, it doesn't happen enough but when he's on his game he really can skate), is like Neely, where he's more valuable on the ice than off, which is why you have a glue guy like Shawn Thornton, who'll stick up for anyone on his team, step into the fracas, but also won't hurt his team with stupid penalties either. (Thornton actually has a good head for the game and just enough negligible hockey skills to hurt you if he's taken for granted by the opposition).

Vancouver has neither, although Dale Weise came close in the Thornton department. Believe it or not he gained some respect from the Bruins announcers, (yes, even Jack Edwards), when he dropped them a couple of years ago....and then blew it when he tried to goad Thornton into a penalty when he was trash talking for a go and then didn't drop them. He can't fight that well but at least he's willing....most of the time.

Say what you want in these un-PC times but every team needs a Lucic or Thornton to stave off the cheap shot crap artists....and yes, I know the B's have Marchand but he was almost angelic-like last season, (except for some of the playoffs) and responded with what could've been his best season. (Seriously, is there anyone out there back in 2010 who would've thought the Bruins would trade Seguin before they would Marchand?)

But I digress....yes, when Lucic in on, he's nearly unstoppable, even if he's not on the score sheet. When he can get some good body licks in it makes even the toughest opponent hesitate just a split second long enough to screw up a play sequence.

It's kind of funny, I watched a lot of the playofffs with a long time pal of mine who's originally from Chicago.....he was torn between the two teams in the Finals and was lauding and critical of both whenever he deemed it necessary, especially during the Toronto series. He doesn't know the game as well as me or everyone else on these boards but does watch on a regular basis. He was lambasting the Bruins 1st line and thought that Lucic was useless on the first line, especially when I mentioned that Lucic's best asset was his hitting and skating. He felt that it was a waste having him on that line and the B's should have a more skill oriented player on the line instead and was lambasting Julien for not switching it up.

I said maybe, but Julien is true to his regulars and knows when they are clicking, they are unstoppable. Lo and behold, it was a Lucic shift at the end of the game that sported a turnover leading to a goal and his presence in front of the net that lead to his goal.

Gestalt I say.....you have the parts, they are different but when they are meshing it is a beauty to behold. Lucic will never be a Howe, Messier or Neely.....hell, he may never be a Tocchett, Nolan or Verbeek, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't provide a valuable asset that is rare and often overlooked.


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08-12-2013, 03:01 PM
  #115
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I may not think much of Milan as an all-time player (yet) but today, if you're asking me who can play on a top line and, not just play physically but actually scare the opposition, that list starts and ends with his name.

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08-12-2013, 03:22 PM
  #116
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I think those VsX really highlight how good Semin is and how much he's somewhat forgotten at this level.

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08-12-2013, 08:14 PM
  #117
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I think those VsX really highlight how good Semin is and how much he's somewhat forgotten at this level.
Semin really is the modern day version of Kent Nilsson, great fantasy guy if he is on, not so great for real NHL teams though.

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08-12-2013, 11:01 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Only in his best and 4th-best seasons (among his best 6).
How can you downplay the fact that he regularly played on a line with two top 100 players of all time? Among his teammates:

30-31: 3rd, 26 and 10 points behind Morenz & Joliat
31-32: 3rd, 12 and 2 points behind Morenz & Joliat
32-33: t-2nd, 4 points behind Joliat and tied with Morenz(Morenz played 2 less games)
33-34: 3rd, 13 and 3 points behind Joliat and Larochelle(3 points ahead of Morenz in 9 more games)
36-37: 1st, 4 points ahead of Joliat(Morenz had moved on to another team)
37-38: 5th
38-39: 3rd

And in that time, I have to think Gagnon was receiving top PP time. Wiseman was playing behind another notable RW for basically his entire career, either Bobby Bauer or Lorne Carr. I would think it's very unlikely Wiseman received as much(and it wasn't nearly as high a quality) PP time as Gagnon. And he was playing with worse linemates at ES.

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08-13-2013, 12:17 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
How can you downplay the fact that he regularly played on a line with two top 100 players of all time? Among his teammates:

30-31: 3rd, 26 and 10 points behind Morenz & Joliat
31-32: 3rd, 12 and 2 points behind Morenz & Joliat
32-33: t-2nd, 4 points behind Joliat and tied with Morenz(Morenz played 2 less games)
33-34: 3rd, 13 and 3 points behind Joliat and Larochelle(3 points ahead of Morenz in 9 more games)
36-37: 1st, 4 points ahead of Joliat(Morenz had moved on to another team)
37-38: 5th
38-39: 3rd

And in that time, I have to think Gagnon was receiving top PP time. Wiseman was playing behind another notable RW for basically his entire career, either Bobby Bauer or Lorne Carr. I would think it's very unlikely Wiseman received as much(and it wasn't nearly as high a quality) PP time as Gagnon. And he was playing with worse linemates at ES.
The PP argument is pure speculation. And how strong is the evidence that he was always playing on 2nd lines?

Like I said, in his best and 4th-best seasons (1933 and 1932) he was a 3rd wheel. You could focus on how far he was behind a top-15 player if you like, but you could also focus on how close he was to a top-100 player.

His 2nd best season, 1937, was outstanding without Morenz and like you said, he outscored Joliat.

His 3rd and 5th-best seasons, 1938 and 1939, were very typical Gagnon/Wiseman seasons. And no Morenz.

Anyway, I don't know where this turned into a Gagnon/Wiseman thing, as I was never comparing the two. But here are their rankings in scoring within their teams in their best 7 seasons:

2-3-3-4-4-4-5
1-3-3-3-3-3-5

The percentages favour Wiseman... but not by a lot. And they're not the only thing to look at. For example, he never led a team in scoring and Gagnon did... and they were a good team, too.

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