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Dave Nonis early criticism..

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08-08-2013, 01:25 AM
  #901
mr grieves
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
No wonder people are stunned when he tells them Kessel is 24 . He will be 26 on October 2nd haaa. That awsome i think lol. The stunned look is most likely because they think he is a liar or stupid.
And now that the confusion's been cleared up... it sounds like management is looking to bring in contributors who are 23 to 29 or so, i.e. not rebuilding the defense with youngsters who are a year or two away from breaking into the league.

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08-08-2013, 01:44 AM
  #902
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Maybe Bernier will turn out to be elite, and the trade will be looked on as a steal, and not an overpayment for something we didn't really need. But I'd question whether elite goaltending is really the hardest thing to get. Maybe Roy or Brodeur level goaltending... but team's haven't really needed that to win a Cup lately. Just guys who get hot, have a great season. And they don't seem that hard to get -- you just need luck.

Harder, it seems to me, is the franchise 1C.
you look at the last 15 years, probably about 8-9 of those stanley cup winners had an elite or near-elite goaltender.

If they didnt, they had an amazing team in front of them(I.e Chicago with Niemi or say crawford) but I dont think I'd call any of the winning goaltenders average.


On another note i think it's proven that in the NHL, unlike IMO say the NBA, that there are multiple ways to win and not just through pure drafting stars and getting lucky through UFA.

IMO we are a 1c(which sounds like a big thing to get) from contention, with a few other minor holes to really come out on top.

overall we're looking like a middle-of-the-pack playoff team right now, getting better each year.

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08-08-2013, 01:44 AM
  #903
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Reimer's never been great for more than 40 games, so getting someone who can be as good for the other half season seems like sensible move, I agree. It was a fine trade. Even if adding $3.5m in salary to the crease, while moving out good price performers, wasn't ideal in a year when the cap was falling.

But I wasn't arguing the trade. I was disagreeing with the idea that Cup-worthy goaltending is the hardest thing to get. My point was: Goalies seem to vary a bit from year to year, more than skaters. Some goalies seem to become "elite" the year their team makes it deep into the playoffs without really striking anyone that way before or after (or maybe not 'as elite'). The really elite centers on recent contenders, on the other hand, have never taken anyone by surprise. We know who they are. Their performances don't seem to vary as much year to year. And no team lucks into having one. They don't move by trade and usually aren't available as UFAs until they're past their prime. So, they do seem harder to acquire -- even if a hot goaltender is, in the end, more crucial to the success of a team.
Well we disagree....to me getting an elite goaltender is the hardest piece to get...However there just is not that many of them....never had been.

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08-08-2013, 02:02 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
Today i read it not over a year ago and it quoted as poulin said it (well i;m thinkin today) lol.

Who wants to read what and when isn't dictated by you either ok. Over looking something i wouldn't neccessarily call ignorant either.

Thats all.
I sounded harsh, my bad. All I meant was criticism based on unknown facts is a little ignorant.

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08-08-2013, 06:27 AM
  #905
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
you look at the last 15 years, probably about 8-9 of those stanley cup winners had an elite or near-elite goaltender.

If they didnt, they had an amazing team in front of them(I.e Chicago with Niemi or say crawford) but I dont think I'd call any of the winning goaltenders average.


On another note i think it's proven that in the NHL, unlike IMO say the NBA, that there are multiple ways to win and not just through pure drafting stars and getting lucky through UFA.

IMO we are a 1c(which sounds like a big thing to get) from contention, with a few other minor holes to really come out on top.

overall we're looking like a middle-of-the-pack playoff team right now, getting better each year.
Agreed. We're a lot closer than people think. One main tweak and a few small ones but with lots of pieces to play with.

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08-08-2013, 08:55 AM
  #906
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
On another note i think it's proven that in the NHL, unlike IMO say the NBA, that there are multiple ways to win and not just through pure drafting stars and getting lucky through UFA.

IMO we are a 1c(which sounds like a big thing to get) from contention, with a few other minor holes to really come out on top.

overall we're looking like a middle-of-the-pack playoff team right now, getting better each year.
Nonis has brought in a G (Bernier), a D (Ranger) a C (Bolland) and Winger in Clarkson.

A new player at every position this summer hoping on improving on the last season. Nonis is still in year 1 of his team building process but so far the results on the ice and off have been positive.

Leafs have a weak prospect pool, but that is going to take some time to build up, as Nonis has very little in the system that he can count on outside of Rielly really to make any impact on his NHL team.

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08-08-2013, 09:03 AM
  #907
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A new player at every position this summer hoping on improving on the last season. Nonis is still in year 1 of his team building process but so far the results on the ice and off have been positive.
Yes, the roster that Brian Burke provided for coach Carlyle to select his team from produced positive results. Lets hope Nonis' moves (now that he has actually made some) improve upon the Brian Burke roster that qualified for the playoffs which Nonis inherited.

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08-08-2013, 01:58 PM
  #908
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Agreed. We're a lot closer than people think. One main tweak and a few small ones but with lots of pieces to play with.
i believe like maybe 10 other teams in the league, the leafs are good enough to win the stanley cup, the pieces are there, the chemistry appears to be there, the goaltending appears to have good healthy competition , the coaching is certainley there, just need some luck along the way with regards to injuries and bounces

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08-08-2013, 02:13 PM
  #909
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i believe like maybe 10 other teams in the league, the leafs are good enough to win the stanley cup, the pieces are there, the chemistry appears to be there, the goaltending appears to have good healthy competition , the coaching is certainley there, just need some luck along the way with regards to injuries and bounces
The formula for success is strength down the middle with strong defense and outstanding goaltending.

The Leafs have over 1/3 their cap invested in their top 4 forwards all wingers. A situation that will get worse after Kessel's $2-3 mil raise in added. No team is built like this with the least important position using so much team resources.

I believe Nonis is going focus on this and move cap and resources through trade to strengthen the middle and improve the defense over time when the right trade present themselves. Until this happens however I don't see us as contenders.

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08-08-2013, 02:19 PM
  #910
Joey Hoser
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The formula for success is strength down the middle with strong defense and outstanding goaltending.

The Leafs have over 1/3 their cap invested in their top 4 forwards all wingers. A situation that will get worse after Kessel's $2-3 mil raise in added. No team is built like this with the least important position using so much team resources.

I believe Nonis is going focus on this and move cap and resources through trade to strengthen the middle and improve the defense over time when the right trade present themselves. Until this happens however I don't see us as contenders.
Until a #1 center becomes available to us, we might as well spend the money on the wings. If we get the chance to bring someone in to build that strength up the middle, those wingers can be moved. Clarkson's contract is questionable, but the rest(JVR, Lupul & Kessel) are movable and for hefty returns.

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08-08-2013, 02:30 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
The formula for success is strength down the middle with strong defense and outstanding goaltending.

The Leafs have over 1/3 their cap invested in their top 4 forwards all wingers. A situation that will get worse after Kessel's $2-3 mil raise in added. No team is built like this with the least important position using so much team resources.

I believe Nonis is going focus on this and move cap and resources through trade to strengthen the middle and improve the defense over time when the right trade present themselves. Until this happens however I don't see us as contenders.
i believe the leafs have that kind of team that can get hot and go all the way, and then after thats done we can look back at our centers and say wow that kadri is pretty damn good, wow bozak really clicks with kessel and adds defensive stabilty, oh look wow bolland is a great fit under carlyle's system, and then theres mclement possibly the best 4th line center in the league..ok i will take off my blue goggles now but still i think i make somewhat of a point ..in some instances players are really nothing until they win

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08-08-2013, 02:42 PM
  #912
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Until a #1 center becomes available to us, we might as well spend the money on the wings. If we get the chance to bring someone in to build that strength up the middle, those wingers can be moved. Clarkson's contract is questionable, but the rest(JVR, Lupul & Kessel) are movable and for hefty returns.
IMO if a deal comes up a strong package to build around would be JvR + Gardiner, both young players with upside on cheap deals. With multiple teams having a plethora of centers and other positions in need of an upgrade I definitely see the possibility of something coming up, and that would be a good return as well.

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08-08-2013, 02:48 PM
  #913
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i believe the leafs have that kind of team that can get hot and go all the way, and then after thats done we can look back at our centers and say wow that kadri is pretty damn good, wow bozak really clicks with kessel and adds defensive stabilty, oh look wow bolland is a great fit under carlyle's system, and then theres mclement possibly the best 4th line center in the league..ok i will take off my blue goggles now but still i think i make somewhat of a point ..in some instances players are really nothing until they win
Except that all of Chicago/Boston/LA/Pittsburgh/Detroit/Anaheim/etc were heralded going into their respective SC winning seasons as ~Top 5 SC contenders from around the league.

On paper, all of those teams looked like they could realistically be a SC winner. The same does not apply to us. We're a projected bubble team, not a projected contender.

We also have a below average prospect pool, and probably NEGATIVE capspace once you factor in raises to Kadri/Franson. Something has to give. We're right at the cap with a relatively weak prospect pool, and still lack the top-end talent needed to win the SC, especially down the middle.

Great, we have Kessel. But all those SC winning teams had 2-3 guys or more of similar or great value than Kessel.

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08-08-2013, 04:20 PM
  #914
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Except that all of Chicago/Boston/LA/Pittsburgh/Detroit/Anaheim/etc were heralded going into their respective SC winning seasons as ~Top 5 SC contenders from around the league.

On paper, all of those teams looked like they could realistically be a SC winner. The same does not apply to us. We're a projected bubble team, not a projected contender.

We also have a below average prospect pool, and probably NEGATIVE capspace once you factor in raises to Kadri/Franson. Something has to give. We're right at the cap with a relatively weak prospect pool, and still lack the top-end talent needed to win the SC, especially down the middle.

Great, we have Kessel. But all those SC winning teams had 2-3 guys or more of similar or great value than Kessel.
Indeed. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the Leafs have a dogfight making the playoffs this year. They could finish anywhere between 6 and 11 I believe. They are definitely not ready to be considered SC contenders. That's just ridiculous. They haven't won a playoff series in a decade and now they are true contenders? Wow. Just wow....I don't understand why it isn't fair to call such biased nonsense delusional. Its not a realistic goal...its not an educated guess...I doubt even Leafs management believes it. They are hockey people. They understand where they place in the NHL. At this point..I'm pretty sure a successful year in management's eyes would be another playoff appearance with perhaps a second round visit.

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08-08-2013, 06:06 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by mr grieves View Post
Maybe Bernier will turn out to be elite, and the trade will be looked on as a steal, and not an overpayment for something we didn't really need. But I'd question whether elite goaltending is really the hardest thing to get. Maybe Roy or Brodeur level goaltending... but team's haven't really needed that to win a Cup lately. Just guys who get hot, have a great season. And they don't seem that hard to get -- you just need luck.

Harder, it seems to me, is the franchise 1C.
i'm hoping that both rimer and bernier play amazing hockey this season. then maybe another team will have an injured goalie or a goalie who is playing really badly.

then we can trade one of rimer or bernier and maybe get a #1 centre in return.

maybe trade reimer/bernier for Datsyuk or something like that. young elite goalie for an ageing elite centre.

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