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Dave Nonis early criticism..

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Old
07-29-2013, 12:21 AM
  #126
zeke
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Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
Perfectly manageable though.
Well, thanks to lupul's bargain deal at least.

But it's already put us in a crunch, and it's gonna be pretty damn annoying carrying that money when he's 33+.

It's not killer, but it's pretty dang bad.

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Old
07-29-2013, 12:26 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
Trade Liles (retain 26% -- $1M -- of yearly salary)
Demote Smith, Holzer
Sign Kadri for $3.2M
Sign Franson for $3.75M
Sign Fraser for $1.2M
Recall Rielly

Lupul - Bozak - Kessel
JVR - Kadri - Clarkson
McClement - Bolland - Kulemin
McLaren - Colborne - Orr

Phaneuf - Gunnarsson
Gardiner - Franson
Rielly - Ranger
Fraser

Reimer
Bernier

21 man roster - $1.3M in cap space.
Not bad.

And you could even save money by going with brennan/holzer/granberg instead of rielly.

But even then, eating capspace for three years would just mean nonis screwed up by not compliancing liles instead of komi, and just using a regular buyout on komi instead.

Not a huge difference but still an extra year of ~$1m dead capspace for no good reason.

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07-29-2013, 01:19 AM
  #128
Duke Silver
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Originally Posted by zeke View Post
But even then, eating capspace for three years would just mean nonis screwed up by not compliancing liles instead of komi, and just using a regular buyout on komi instead.
No doubt. If Nonis is unable to offload Liles, it was a mistake to use a compliance buyout on Komi instead of Liles.

I feel that Nonis would have thought about this, though, before going through with it. In all likelihood he felt, and still feels, that Liles is tradeable.

Edit: How's this for depressing? If we had used compliance buyout on Liles, and a regular buyout on Komisarek, we would have an addition $2.375M to play with this off-season.


Last edited by Duke Silver: 07-29-2013 at 02:59 AM.
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07-29-2013, 01:49 AM
  #129
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Cap going up will give space for Dion and Kessel to be resigned. Non-issue.

On the other hand, Canuck fans warned us that Nonis sucks at negotiating contracts, guess they were correct on that.

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07-29-2013, 08:58 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
What if Clarkson is boughtout after 5 years?

http://www.capgeek.com/buyout-calcul...07&buyout_d=28

David Clarkson buyout from CapGeek.com

2018-19: $1,833,333
2019-20: $3,333,333
2020-21: $1,333,333
2021-22: $1,333,333
Imagine we had $2M in extra cap space this year that we lost due to previous bad signings. Would we be wondering how we get everyone signed, or deciding how much term is right for each player?

Does it make $7,833,333 in wasted cap space look less bad if you spread it out over a few seasons?

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07-29-2013, 09:07 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by GreatestLeafsFanEVER View Post
This is nice, but our biggest problems were weak defense and weakness at 1/2c...he didn't do anything to fix these problems.

Overall team defence is better and they were 6th in the league in team scoring last season and 9th or 10th the season before so how big of an issue is the #1 center spot? Yes, it would be nice to have one but they are doing well without one so I think that 'issue' tends to be blown out of proportion a bit.

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07-29-2013, 09:11 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Swervin81 View Post
Cap going up will give space for Dion and Kessel to be resigned. Non-issue.

On the other hand, Canuck fans warned us that Nonis sucks at negotiating contracts, guess they were correct on that.
Do you expect the cap to go up by like 4 mil?

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07-29-2013, 09:14 AM
  #133
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Leafs Nation is so big that, our G.M. will always make 50% of us ecstatic, but, will completely piss off the other 50% with every move he makes.

This is what this board reflects most of the time.

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07-29-2013, 09:17 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Swervin81 View Post
Cap going up will give space for Dion and Kessel to be resigned. Non-issue.

On the other hand, Canuck fans warned us that Nonis sucks at negotiating contracts, guess they were correct on that.
Nonis doesn't sit all alone in his office with no one to help him out! I'm sure most contract decisions are made by committee.

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07-29-2013, 09:21 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
No doubt. If Nonis is unable to offload Liles, it was a mistake to use a compliance buyout on Komi instead of Liles.

I feel that Nonis would have thought about this, though, before going through with it. In all likelihood he felt, and still feels, that Liles is tradeable.

Edit: How's this for depressing? If we had used compliance buyout on Liles, and a regular buyout on Komisarek, we would have an addition $2.375M to play with this off-season.
This is the point I was trying to make with my friends for the past two weeks.

With how much BS the media spins and all the talk about Nonis, I don't understand how this isn't brought up more often.

This in my opinion is his biggest mistake so far...and a pretty obvious one.

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07-29-2013, 09:23 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by WestCoastLeafs View Post
Imagine we had $2M in extra cap space this year that we lost due to previous bad signings. Would we be wondering how we get everyone signed, or deciding how much term is right for each player?

Does it make $7,833,333 in wasted cap space look less bad if you spread it out over a few seasons?
Many of the previous long-term contracts signed by Owners are done with the intention that the player will never fulfill the full obligation.

The way Clarkson plays the game physically it wears on the body faster than skilled non contact players. Clarkson may be forced into early retirement due to failing health with age before completing all 7 years of his current deal.

Yes, spreading out costs over multiple years has less impact on a team's cap and spending. If you're taking a $1.3 mil cap hit in a single year as opposed to $7.8 mil over one year it makes a world of difference. MLSE may consider the Clarkson future buyout potentially as a cost of doing business in today's market.

Clarkson only came with a 7 year option, and to get the player the organization wanted it was a necessary evil or he would have gotten it from another team and strengthened the opposition.

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07-29-2013, 09:29 AM
  #137
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I haven't read through the thread but there are two talking heads on Twitter that lead the charge against nearly every move that Dave Nonis has made this summer: @felixpotvin and the rest of the PPP guys and James Mirtle, who usually piggybacks onto PPP opinion.

The fact of the matter is that the Leafs have improved on paper. It remains to be seen if these improvements translate into success on the ice, but to criticize blindly is pretty ridiculous.

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07-29-2013, 09:29 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Anth93 View Post
What a terrible display of cap management by the Maple Leafs.
I don't know if it was "terrible... cap management" but I certainly haven't been impressed with the contracts signed thus far.

This and next off-season are critical for this club. The team is leaving the rebuilding phase and entering one where the aim is to compete. With a good cap position and contracts for nearly every player coming due, the opportunity is there for management to shape what this team will look like going forward. Overpayments today are going to cost us down the line.

With all that said, not "being impressed" is different from calling for pink slips. I think the Bozak contract is just terrible but am not too unhappy with the rest of the signings. I just think that many of those contracts could have been cheaper. Gunnarsson probably could have been signed at $350,000 less. Bernier maybe $900,000. That's $1.25 million, good enough to retain Fraser or even Franson (which we look like we may not be able to do). Clarkson, is a difficult one, just because you don't know what other teams were offering and whether he would have gone elsewhere.

Hopefully Nonis can improve in this aspect when signing Kadri and Franson and especially, any Kessel or Phaneuf extension.

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07-29-2013, 09:36 AM
  #139
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I think Nonis has done a good job making the necessary moves to make the Leafs a better Carlyle team for next season, which will propel them forward and not backward .. Tough moves such as buying out Grabo, getting Bozak at a reasonable cap hit (considering the market), solidifying goaltending depth

Simply put, the Leafs have replaced MacArthur, Grabo, and Komarov with Clarkson, Bolland, and room (so far) left for one of the kids to get on the roster (Colborne, D'Amigo, Ashton) ... The amount of character and grit added with Clarkson and Bolland will be amount to a huge impact .. Make no doubts, the will be one of the top (if not the most) annoying teams to play against

The defence still remains suspect, but Nonis hasn't handcuffed himself to any long term veteran UFA contracts on the back end allowing for more flexibility. With the depth of d prospects the Leafs have coming up, this will be beneficial

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07-29-2013, 09:39 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeke View Post
If he doesn't figure out a way to keep both kadri and franson, then this offseason could be pretty disastrous.

Clarkson is one of the worst contracts in hockey.

We sacrificed scoring depth and capspace to add a luxury in bernier, even though we had some of the best goaltending in the league last year, and definitely the most cap efficient.

Bolland may or may not be a good move - ge's definitely not cheap for a third li er.

Getting rid of grabo and komi were the right moves, and getting ranger was a great move (though likely handed to nonis on a silver platter) but if we end up losing a guy like franson, then this offseason will have been a miserable failure.
I love.... I mean absolutely love the Bernier trade....it was also required to get an upgrade in the nets....Scrivens was not ever going to be a solution...we now have two young goalies moving forward and a trade option to upgrade us in prospects or draft picks moving forward.

We will if we want resign both Franson and Kadri without a worry.

The Clarkson contract may be an over payment....but i think it is at value....however we saved money by buying out Grabo and signing him...so I see no issue at all.

Bolland gives us added dimensions that we did not have last year....a very good defensive center who can also slide up in the lineup if required...the line juggling we did last year was required as we lacked options...I can see a more stability in our lines moving forward....

Nonis did not sign or trade for some scrubs....like Connelly, Komisarek etc...he traded for and signed for three players who will help move us forward. Great job thus far....and I see no reason why he can not sign both Franson and Kadri....if he does move Franson it will only because he wants to not because he has to..

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07-29-2013, 09:41 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by BertCorbeau View Post
I think Nonis has done a good job making the necessary moves to make the Leafs a better Carlyle team for next season, which will propel them forward and not backward .. Tough moves such as buying out Grabo, getting Bozak at a reasonable cap hit (considering the market), solidifying goaltending depth

Simply put, the Leafs have replaced MacArthur, Grabo, and Komarov with Clarkson, Bolland, and room (so far) left for one of the kids to get on the roster (Colborne, D'Amigo, Ashton) ... The amount of character and grit added with Clarkson and Bolland will be amount to a huge impact .. Make no doubts, the will be one of the top (if not the most) annoying teams to play against

The defence still remains suspect, but Nonis hasn't handcuffed himself to any long term veteran UFA contracts on the back end allowing for more flexibility. With the depth of d prospects the Leafs have coming up, this will be beneficial
It really is too bad that we couldn't afford to keep Leo Komarov. A line of Leo Komarov - David Bolland - Nikolai Kulemin would have been fantastic defensively and physically. He has an out clause in his current KHL deal next summer and I hope the Leafs find the room to sign him to a fair deal.

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07-29-2013, 10:00 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
This and next off-season are critical for this club. The team is leaving the rebuilding phase and entering one where the aim is to compete. With a good cap position and contracts for nearly every player coming due, the opportunity is there for management to shape what this team will look like going forward. Overpayments today are going to cost us down the line.

With all that said, not "being impressed" is different from calling for pink slips. I think the Bozak contract is just terrible but am not too unhappy with the rest of the signings. I just think that many of those contracts could have been cheaper. Gunnarsson probably could have been signed at $350,000 less. Bernier maybe $900,000. That's $1.25 million, good enough to retain Fraser or even Franson (which we look like we may not be able to do). Clarkson, is a difficult one, just because you don't know what other teams were offering and whether he would have gone elsewhere.

Hopefully Nonis can improve in this aspect when signing Kadri and Franson and especially, any Kessel or Phaneuf extension.
My GM playing hardball on contracts trying to get the lowest possible price is in the best interest of the team and the cap.

A GM that overspends simply to get deals done is not good for cap management .. see Grabovski for example of overpaying resulting in buyout to correct.

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07-29-2013, 10:17 AM
  #143
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A GM that overspends simply to get deals done is not good for cap management .. see Grabovski for example of overpaying resulting in buyout to correct.
Isn't that what Nonis did for Clarkson?

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07-29-2013, 10:28 AM
  #144
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Isn't that what Nonis did for Clarkson?
Not at all ... It's been already cleared up that Clarkson left money on the table from other teams and elected to sign for less to play in Toronto

It's still a high dollar value but that's the UFA market for you ... If you're going to dip into it you should expect to pay more than what you think fair value is

The biggest thing I dislike about the Clarkson deal is the term .. 7 years is a long time for a physical player .. In fairness he has stayed healthy throughout his career so far but it is a risk

I still think $5.25 over 7 years for a guy who scored 30 goals once is too much, but the market said otherwise when looking at the offers he got ... While I doubt he can hit 30 again, if he puts in 20-25 with 50-55 points while providing physical, pain-in-the-ass play .. It's worth it .. Basically if he becomes a Darcy Tucker type player I'm happy

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07-29-2013, 10:41 AM
  #145
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who said they cant score?? did they have a 5% shooting percentage? no. Use logic man please for your sake
You just claimed we have no one to put the puck in the back of the net. Now you're trying to say "who said they can't score?" Unbelievable , stick to one statement and not flip flop when someone calls you out on something

Funny how you couldn't dispute what was said though, but I guess thats what happens when people say ridiculous things

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07-29-2013, 11:07 AM
  #146
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My GM playing hardball on contracts trying to get the lowest possible price is in the best interest of the team and the cap.

A GM that overspends simply to get deals done is not good for cap management .. see Grabovski for example of overpaying resulting in buyout to correct.
...but Clarkson is good cap management or doing as you suggest and having close to $12 M on the 3rd line is good cap management?

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07-29-2013, 11:09 AM
  #147
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I love.... I mean absolutely love the Bernier trade....it was also required to get an upgrade in the nets....Scrivens was not ever going to be a solution...we now have two young goalies moving forward and a trade option to upgrade us in prospects or draft picks moving forward.

We will if we want resign both Franson and Kadri without a worry.

The Clarkson contract may be an over payment....but i think it is at value....however we saved money by buying out Grabo and signing him...so I see no issue at all.

Bolland gives us added dimensions that we did not have last year....a very good defensive center who can also slide up in the lineup if required...the line juggling we did last year was required as we lacked options...I can see a more stability in our lines moving forward....

Nonis did not sign or trade for some scrubs....like Connelly, Komisarek etc...he traded for and signed for three players who will help move us forward. Great job thus far....and I see no reason why he can not sign both Franson and Kadri....if he does move Franson it will only because he wants to not because he has to..
Komisarek was one of the more highly sought after UFA at the time and supposedly took less to sign here. Sound familiar to anyone else?

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07-29-2013, 11:22 AM
  #148
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...but Clarkson is good cap management or doing as you suggest and having close to $12 M on the 3rd line is good cap management?
I don't believe Clarkson was obtained for 3rd line duty and expect he will likely appear beside Kadri and Lupul, while JVR - Bozak- Kessel trio remain intact as the other top 6 line.

He brings much needed grit to an otherwise soft top 6 to help offset other teams like Boston who have a Lucic similar type in their top 6.

I expect Bolland and Kulemin to form 2/3rd of a 3rd checking line with the duo seeing additional time on specialty teams.

Clarkson was considered the top available UFA this summer and Nonis landed him for our Leafs, where in the past we had to settle for 2nd and 3rd rate players while the desired players went elsewhere.

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07-29-2013, 11:25 AM
  #149
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Damn...I bet the same guys criticizing Nonis and Co. for these contracts would have been the same ones crying if they hadn't signed a free agent.

Signing Clarkson to that ridiculous term and over-paying by $500K-$1M per is the cost of obtaining UFAs in this league. Picked up Bernier and Bolland as well.

I don't think it would be tough to move a guy like Liles if it came down to it. He's still a very serviceable D and his cap hit isn't that bad

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07-29-2013, 11:29 AM
  #150
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I am so tired of the incessant whining about this subject. With the exception of Gunnarsson, the players Nonis has chosen to sign thus far have been the ones that could've walked because they were unrestricted.

We have, according to cap geek, $6,170,833 in remaining cap space. The problem with those numbers is that they are still counting Smith and Holzer, neither of them likely to make this team. Beyond that, Colborne as well is anything but a lock to be on this squad. So, in reality, we have somewhere between 7.5 and 8.1 million in remaining cap space to sign 3 RFAs.

The problem from this point is that 90% of the people on this website seem to have absolutely no idea how to research comparables and determine value. Even IF Franson is making 4 million this season, we are likely to be fine, assuming we want to pay him that. And this is assuming that Liles is still here, which I don't expect to be the case come October.

Fraser isn't likely to get much, if any, more than a million. I'm thinking he tops out around 1.25 million. Kadri should be getting signed to bridge deal somewhere in the ballpark of what PK Subban signed, perhaps slightly less. This puts him in the 2.75-3 range for probably 2 years. IF he performs, than he gets his money, with term. I think it's fair to assume that Franson will get more money than Gunnarsson, but I really don't expect it to be much. Gunnarsson has played a significantly larger role on this team for 2-3 years and was paid accordingly. Franson has the offense that Gunnarsson doesn't, but that shouldn't see him paid excessively more. 3.5-4 is my best guess.

This is a very manageable cap situation. People just have to have something to complain about this time of year.

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