HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Teemu Selanne and Steve Yzerman offensively

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-31-2013, 04:48 PM
  #26
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Who here is doing that? I provided their scoring finishes with raw stats just to start this thread. I clearly asked about other people's opinions about the similarities and differences in their offensive games.

The fact that they have nearly identical offensive numbers compared to their peers was interesting, since I believe most of us are easily throwing Yzerman in a class above Selanne. Why is that?

BTW, when has Selanne disappeared? He had reconstructive knee surgery in the -05 lockout. He wasn't contributin few years prior to that cause he just simply should have not been playing. To act like Yzerman was the only one injured is ********.
Injuries haven't really been discussed. But I think it's fair to say that Yzerman was more affected by his knee injury than Selanne was by his; Selanne was late in his prime when he was injured; Yzerman had just entered his prime. And even having just suffered the injury, Yzerman was still able to put up 155 points in 88-89 (with his speed having been notably decreased). The Steen hit in 1993 was also a major point. If you take the 1988 knee injury and the 1993 back injury away from Yzerman and Selanne's knee injury away from him, and Yzerman comes out way ahead IMHO.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2013, 04:53 PM
  #27
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,279
vCash: 931
How could Yzerman score a career high of 155 points if he was crippled Eva?

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2013, 05:23 PM
  #28
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
How could Yzerman score a career high of 155 points if he was crippled Eva?
Because he adapted well to the situation?

Yzerman's prime basically began at the very end of the 86-87 season and into that playoffs, and 87-88 was his first true "prime" season. He wrecked his knee in game 64, having scored 50-52-102. Part of the difference might have been the presence of MacLean instead of Probert. MacLean basically broke down 2/3 of the way through the season and was useless the rest of the way, but was still more of a scoring presence overall than Probert. Gallant also had a better year, although that was obviously influenced by Yzerman's better season and more games played.

Yzerman's offensive effectiveness was certainly hampered by his loss of speed. Consider Sergei Fedorov before he had injury issues with Columbus post-lockout. He was still scoring at the same rate he did with Detroit in the 90s, and playing the same level of defense. He was able to maintain that level of defensive play through his retirement, but his offensive performance dropped off largely due to the injuries. Pat LaFontaine, Eric Lindros, Paul Kariya, Pavel Bure, Jonathan Cheechoo, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, John LeClair, these are all guys who scored at a high level and suffered one or more significant injuries that are largely responsible for reducing their output notably.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2013, 05:28 PM
  #29
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,279
vCash: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
YPat LaFontaine, Eric Lindros, Paul Kariya, Pavel Bure, Jonathan Cheechoo, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, John LeClair, these are all guys who scored at a high level and suffered one or more significant injuries that are largely responsible for reducing their output notably.
Or it in some cases was becouse of some other reason, at least when it comes to Yzerman since he kept scoring and even more than before. Ovechkin lost his groove. Has perhaps gotten it back.

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2013, 06:03 PM
  #30
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Because he adapted well to the situation?

Yzerman's prime basically began at the very end of the 86-87 season and into that playoffs, and 87-88 was his first true "prime" season. He wrecked his knee in game 64, having scored 50-52-102. Part of the difference might have been the presence of MacLean instead of Probert. MacLean basically broke down 2/3 of the way through the season and was useless the rest of the way, but was still more of a scoring presence overall than Probert. Gallant also had a better year, although that was obviously influenced by Yzerman's better season and more games played.

Yzerman's offensive effectiveness was certainly hampered by his loss of speed. Consider Sergei Fedorov before he had injury issues with Columbus post-lockout. He was still scoring at the same rate he did with Detroit in the 90s, and playing the same level of defense. He was able to maintain that level of defensive play through his retirement, but his offensive performance dropped off largely due to the injuries. Pat LaFontaine, Eric Lindros, Paul Kariya, Pavel Bure, Jonathan Cheechoo, Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, John LeClair, these are all guys who scored at a high level and suffered one or more significant injuries that are largely responsible for reducing their output notably.
Yzerman's knees took a lot of beating over the years and it definitely affected him later as they piled up. But after his arthroscopic surgery Surgery in 88 and the summer to recover, he returned and looked as good as new in 88-89. The wings in fact, were very relieved as it was a source of constant speculation.

Eventually as the knee injuries piled up and age began to show, you could see it. But that was not until later.

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-31-2013, 10:16 PM
  #31
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Yzerman's knees took a lot of beating over the years and it definitely affected him later as they piled up. But after his arthroscopic surgery Surgery in 88 and the summer to recover, he returned and looked as good as new in 88-89. The wings in fact, were very relieved as it was a source of constant speculation.

Eventually as the knee injuries piled up and age began to show, you could see it. But that was not until later.
He was back on the ice and healthy, but he had lost speed and agility.

Before the 88 knee injury, I would have said Yzerman's speed and agility were similar to Bure's or LaFontaine's. Afterwards, he was not nearly as agile and a step behind in speed; pun not intended.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 10:13 AM
  #32
Merya
Jokerit & Finland
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Helsinki
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,290
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Taylor View Post
I've always thought of them as on the same level offensively, scoring finishes illustrate that pretty well. I agree that Selanne is the slightly better goalscorer while Yzerman has the edge in playmaking.
This pretty much. Although Selšnne gets the age bonus.

Merya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 10:19 AM
  #33
Merya
Jokerit & Finland
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Helsinki
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,290
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Strictly from an offensive standpoint, it's still Yzerman. Just the way he could control the pace of the game with his offense alone is astounding. Selanne never reached an Yzerman 1989 level. A scarce amount of players in NHL history did.
Perhaps controversial, but I'd say that the rookie season was around that level. I'd also perhaps even more controversially posit the Kariya-less season as true offensive heroics on par with the best ever offensive seasons.

Merya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 10:28 AM
  #34
Merya
Jokerit & Finland
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Helsinki
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,290
vCash: 500
Jonathan Cheechoo? Really? One season wonder. You're better than that Extra-Vehicular Action Suit 0. (I hope)

Merya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 12:26 PM
  #35
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merya View Post
Perhaps controversial, but I'd say that the rookie season was around that level. I'd also perhaps even more controversially posit the Kariya-less season as true offensive heroics on par with the best ever offensive seasons.
It's arguable whether Selanne's 92-93 season was better than Yzerman's from a strictly OFFENSIVE standpoint. And that was arguably Yzerman's fourth-best season offensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merya View Post
Jonathan Cheechoo? Really? One season wonder. You're better than that Extra-Vehicular Action Suit 0. (I hope)
Cheechoo was a legit ~30 goal scorer pre-Thornton. He blew up into a 50+ scorer when Thornton came around. Cheechoo missed time in November 2006 (in his 37-goal post-Richard season) due to a leg injury, and then Scott Hartnell took out his knee in April of that same season. He also had a broken thumb during the playoffs that year that limited his effectiveness. Over the next two years with San Jose, Cheechoo's goal totals declined considerably; largely because he simply couldn't play the game he used to play and wasn't able to adapt. By the time he was traded, his skating pace had slowed to a crawl and he was completely ineffective if not used in a scoring role. He played one season in Ottawa, largely on the third and fourth lines, and didn't score much because he could no longer create his own offense. He no longer had the speed to do it, and he didn't have the hockey IQ to adapt his abilities.

Had Cheechoo not had his leg wrecked in 2006-07, he probably is close to 350-400 goals by now.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 03:05 PM
  #36
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
He was back on the ice and healthy, but he had lost speed and agility.

Before the 88 knee injury, I would have said Yzerman's speed and agility were similar to Bure's or LaFontaine's. Afterwards, he was not nearly as agile and a step behind in speed; pun not intended.
And I disagree. Yzerman came back shifty on his skates as ever. None the worse for wear.
At the time, it was being heralded as incredible that he had not lost a step.

I started noticing a wee bit of changes in his skating In 90-91 vs StLouis in the playoffs, he injured his knee but refused to sit. Then he injured his knee again early in the 91-92 season, but did not spend much time letting it heal. In 1995 when he sprained his knee again, that was where the cumulative effects began to show a bit more.

Players tended to tough out their injuries a bit more back then, and he was no exception. But it might not have been the best idea.

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 09:25 AM
  #37
tony d
Real Super Mario
 
tony d's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind A Tree
Country: Canada
Posts: 51,548
vCash: 500
Offensively speaking I don't think you can go wrong with either player. Selanne was a great goal scorer and Yzerman a great playmaker.

__________________
tony d is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 10:48 AM
  #38
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,774
vCash: 500
Torn Achilles Tendon

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Injuries haven't really been discussed. But I think it's fair to say that Yzerman was more affected by his knee injury than Selanne was by his; Selanne was late in his prime when he was injured; Yzerman had just entered his prime. And even having just suffered the injury, Yzerman was still able to put up 155 points in 88-89 (with his speed having been notably decreased). The Steen hit in 1993 was also a major point. If you take the 1988 knee injury and the 1993 back injury away from Yzerman and Selanne's knee injury away from him, and Yzerman comes out way ahead IMHO.
Overlooked fact - Teemu Selanne suffered a torn achilles tendon in his second NHL season.

Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 02:55 PM
  #39
Misleader
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 118
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Overlooked fact - Teemu Selanne suffered a torn achilles tendon in his second NHL season.
And this before NHL:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...05/2/index.htm

When he was 19 and playing for Jokerit, Selanne snapped the tibia and fibula in his left leg. Though he's had other serious injuries since, including a severed Achilles tendon in '93-94, he says, "To me, the broken leg was the worst time of my career. It took more than a year to heal. I was so worried. I was afraid I'd never know if I could've made it in the NHL."

Misleader is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 05:40 PM
  #40
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,279
vCash: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misleader View Post
And this before NHL:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...05/2/index.htm

When he was 19 and playing for Jokerit, Selanne snapped the tibia and fibula in his left leg. Though he's had other serious injuries since, including a severed Achilles tendon in '93-94, he says, "To me, the broken leg was the worst time of my career. It took more than a year to heal. I was so worried. I was afraid I'd never know if I could've made it in the NHL."
Yeah so what? He would have been the NHL all-time leading scorer without it? Sometimes it seems like people are trying to point to any serious injury ever that a player would have been Gordie Howe without it. Fact is, some injuries heal, and a player moves on unharmed. That's actually happened to Gordie himself early in his career.

Darth Yoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 05:53 PM
  #41
Dark Shadows
Registered User
 
Dark Shadows's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Japan
Posts: 7,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Yeah so what? He would have been the NHL all-time leading scorer without it? Sometimes it seems like people are trying to point to any serious injury ever that a player would have been Gordie Howe without it. Fact is, some injuries heal, and a player moves on unharmed. That's actually happened to Gordie himself early in his career.
Some players heal and do not miss a beat. Others do not(Serge Savard) but adapt and still have great careers.

Yzerman was fine after his first knee injury.
1988 November news article
Quote:
The Organization gasped when Yzerman was clipped by a knee injury that kept him out of the last 16 regular season games and all but 3 of their playoff games. but breathed a collective sigh of relief when he returned none the worse for wear.

Dark Shadows is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 05:56 PM
  #42
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,896
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merya View Post
Perhaps controversial, but I'd say that the rookie season was around that level. I'd also perhaps even more controversially posit the Kariya-less season as true offensive heroics on par with the best ever offensive seasons.
Yzerman had 155 points in 1989 while Gretzky had 168. We are talking about a comparable to Gretzky in a Hart winning season while Selanne in his rookie season was comparable to Pierre Turgeon's best year and still 5 points behind Yzerman that year. I think there is a difference there.

Plus you have to go further. Was Yzerman more dynamic and a better all around threat? I think Yzerman kept defenses guessing more and the thing with him was that you never knew what he was going to do, was he going to do that "Parting of the Red Sea" goal against Chicago or slap it top corner against Jon Casey in 1996? Yzerman just scared defenses more than Selanne did and that is no disrespect at all.

Also, late in the game I think you feared Yzerman being on the ice to tie it more than Selanne. Just little things other than stats - which I think favour Yzerman as well.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-05-2013, 12:12 PM
  #43
DisgruntledGoat
Registered User
 
DisgruntledGoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
And I disagree. Yzerman came back shifty on his skates as ever. None the worse for wear.
At the time, it was being heralded as incredible that he had not lost a step.

I started noticing a wee bit of changes in his skating In 90-91 vs StLouis in the playoffs, he injured his knee but refused to sit. Then he injured his knee again early in the 91-92 season, but did not spend much time letting it heal. In 1995 when he sprained his knee again, that was where the cumulative effects began to show a bit more.

Players tended to tough out their injuries a bit more back then, and he was no exception. But it might not have been the best idea.
No, you don't get it.

We saw the worse possible Yzerman ever. In every one of Eva's 'alternate realities', Yzerman is way better than what we saw.

DisgruntledGoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-05-2013, 12:16 PM
  #44
DisgruntledGoat
Registered User
 
DisgruntledGoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,020
vCash: 500
I pick Yzerman.

Stevie Y had one of the most impressive arrays of offensive skills I've ever seen. He could really do anything. Skate, stickhandle, deke, pass, and shoot all at elite levels.

Yzerman could beat you in any number of ways, whereas Selanne was more of a specialist, a guy with a couple of elite skills (speed, hands, shot) that the opposition rarely had an answer for. That's not to say that Selanne couldn't do other things, he just couldn't do them at the level Yzerman could.

DisgruntledGoat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:34 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.