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I'mma call BS on The RR Agenda...

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Old
08-01-2013, 06:30 AM
  #51
Holden Caulfield
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
RR is trying to get people to listen to his show. If you are just all "TNSE is the best" all the time, then people aren't going to tune in. It's not Rick Ralph's job to be correct, nor is it his duty to protect True North. His job is to get ratings. Food for thought. #provocative

As for the rest: We will see at the end of the contracts that Chevy has given out whether or not they were fair value. I am talking all of them, from Toby to Ondrej to Evander to Bryan.

For my money, he's done an excellent job with all but #31's deal. He has paid the players fairly, did not try to be a cheapskate, and showed that this organization will pay to win. But I guess that's a little OT.

PS. If we had league average goaltending last year we make the playoffs. You can't really put that on the guys who just signed deals.
I'd say the stupid ridiculous overpayment of Clitsome (which will burn us by the TD guaranteed) is also a misstep many people will see very soon. As well as releasing talented players like Machacek [who was nearly ppg with CBS AHL btw] and Kulda for plugs like Thorburn and Pardy (honestly I can't lose here since I don't see either Thorburn or Pardy as legit NHL talents unless they magically develop and I am a firm believer than Machacek and Kulda simply need the chance, even if they have to go KHL to get it).

The most important thing, IMO, is that he has done not NEARLY enough to bring in legit NHL talent to take this team to the next step. Being patient is nice, but we are in year #6 of this rebuild, it is time to start adding pieces to become a contender, ala Scuderi, Chara, Hossa, Khabibulin, Mitchell. these are guys added before the team is a contender that will be a huge presence on this team going forward that will help the team develop and eventually help them become legit SC contenders.


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Old
08-01-2013, 07:13 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I'd say the stupid ridiculous overpayment of Clitsome (which will burn us by the TD guaranteed) is also a misstep many people will see very soon. As well as releasing talented players like Machacek [who was nearly ppg with CBS AHL btw] and Kulda for plugs like Thorburn and Pardy (honestly I can't lose here since I don't see either Thorburn or Pardy as legit NHL talents unless they magically develop and I am a firm believer than Machacek and Kulda simply need the chance, even if they have to go KHL to get it).

The most important thing, IMO, is that he has done not NEARLY enough to bring in legit NHL talent to take this team to the next step. Being patient is nice, but we are in year #6 of this rebuild, it is time to start adding pieces to become a contender, ala Scuderi, Chara, Hossa, Khabibulin, Mitchell. these are guys added before the team is a contender that will be a huge presence on this team going forward that will help the team develop and eventually help them become legit SC contenders.
I don't think the vast majority of Jets fans see it this way. To most Winnipegers this is year 3 of Jets 2.0. Some may be vaguely aware of what happened in Atlanta but most couldn't give a rat's ***. People have bought into the evaluation period concept and this was culminated in signing the agreed upon core to long term deals. All the while filling the prospect cupboard. Most fans are happy now but this is the year people will start having raised expectations. Chevy will live and die by the core moving forward and his drafting prowess. To add the type of talent you listed would require not signing or trading away players. Chevy is a few years away before this needs to take more drastic measures like this. If guys like Scheifele and Trouba establish themselves as rising young stars and with guys like Lowry, Petan & Morrissey looking like they are on their way, this team will start having success all on their own. I can see a big move at some point but not now.

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08-01-2013, 07:23 AM
  #53
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Yeah I certainly don't consider years prior to the jets return under the current regime to be part of any "rebuild." We're at year 3, not year 6 afaic...

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08-01-2013, 07:54 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
I don't think the vast majority of Jets fans see it this way. To most Winnipegers this is year 3 of Jets 2.0. Some may be vaguely aware of what happened in Atlanta but most couldn't give a rat's ***. People have bought into the evaluation period concept and this was culminated in signing the agreed upon core to long term deals. All the while filling the prospect cupboard. Most fans are happy now but this is the year people will start having raised expectations. Chevy will live and die by the core moving forward and his drafting prowess. To add the type of talent you listed would require not signing or trading away players. Chevy is a few years away before this needs to take more drastic measures like this. If guys like Scheifele and Trouba establish themselves as rising young stars and with guys like Lowry, Petan & Morrissey looking like they are on their way, this team will start having success all on their own. I can see a big move at some point but not now.
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Originally Posted by SensibleGuy View Post
Yeah I certainly don't consider years prior to the jets return under the current regime to be part of any "rebuild." We're at year 3, not year 6 afaic...
I understand this mentality but disagree with it COMPELTELY.

If we are looking at historical (and I am talking last 10 years under cap with exception of Detroit who cannot count due to abnormal consistency) comparaisons, we MUST take the previous years in Atlanta under consideration. The process of building a team does NOT start with a change in management at all. It starts and ends with simply the talent on the roster.

Every single past cup winner in the past decade has added a solid veteran who helped stabilize the core BEFORE even becoming a contender. There is no empirical evidence to support the theory that we need to become a contender before adding that presence on the team, like many would suggest since we are only at year "3". In fact all the evidence we are already late bordering on starting a new rebuild before we make progress.

You all might consider this year 3, but in terms of ages and core development we are clearly at year 6 or beyond and time is QUICKLY running out to start taking that next step.

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08-01-2013, 07:57 AM
  #55
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Right now, the whole core came from Atlanta and whether some want to admit it or not, we wouldn't be where we are now without those players. Unless you want to give up Buff, Enstrom, Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Bogosian, and Kane???

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08-01-2013, 08:06 AM
  #56
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Holden I have to disagree with you on this one. When the team moved here the only parts that Atlanta controlled was our core and depth chart. Chevy has started trim the excess weight and replace them with hopefuls (looking at Tangradi), I do agree that we overpaid for Clitsome, BUT Clitty was showing vast improvement this past short season.

When players move to a brand new city not just as a single player but an entire team, it takes it's toll on everyone, you're basically back to square one, new coach, new gm, new owner, new city, new house, and so on and so on. Remember these guys are human. It takes time to jell and mould a team from nothing to something.

I would definitely say this is a defining year, should the team make the playoffs we are in the right direction, should they miss, well, bye bye Noel and it's time to take a step back and regroup.

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08-01-2013, 08:13 AM
  #57
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Afaic, when you bring in a new GM, coach, and in this case pretty much everything else (ownership, city), that's a starting point for a new build. That doesn't mean everything that came before gets thrown away of course but you re-evaluate what you have and you formulate your plan. You aren't continuing on with the plans of the previous regime.

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08-01-2013, 08:34 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by SensibleGuy View Post
Afaic, when you bring in a new GM, coach, and in this case pretty much everything else (ownership, city), that's a starting point for a new build. That doesn't mean everything that came before gets thrown away of course but you re-evaluate what you have and you formulate your plan. You aren't continuing on with the plans of the previous regime.
You are starting your own "build" but you use the blocks in place. For example Kings GM used blocks like Dustin Brown, Anze Kopitar, Jonathan Quick that were already in place however you still need to use somewhat the timeline that is already in place. In the cap world you build for a 4-7 year period where you are a legit Stanley Cup contender. But there is many steps to get to that level from a top 5 picking team. And if you pick up a team already 2-3 years into that build like Chevy inherited from Atlanta you must adhere to that timeline, in particular when you inherited an already aging core (Enstrom, Ladd, Byfuglien, Wheeler). People don't like to think of a mid-20's core as aging, but in these days of UFA they are. Many people are saying we are 2-3 years away from playoffs. In other words they are saying we not going to be SC contenders until Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Pavelec, Kane, Bogosian are UFA and due for huge raises, starting to decline and we will not even be able to build a consistant contender.

If Chevy wanted to completely rebuild, the time was 2 years ago. Now the core is aging. It's time to put up or shut up.

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08-01-2013, 09:03 AM
  #59
Edgar Halliwax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
If we are looking at historical (and I am talking last 10 years under cap with exception of Detroit who cannot count due to abnormal consistency) comparaisons, we MUST take the previous years in Atlanta under consideration. The process of building a team does NOT start with a change in management at all. It starts and ends with simply the talent on the roster.
Correction - YOU MUST take the previous years in Atlanta under consideration.

"We", on the other hand can decide for ourselves. For me, this is the start of year 3 of the "re-build".

And I expect to see progress. Time will tell how much progress. I will reserve any judgement until I see what transpires this year.

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08-01-2013, 09:17 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
You are starting your own "build" but you use the blocks in place. For example Kings GM used blocks like Dustin Brown, Anze Kopitar, Jonathan Quick that were already in place however you still need to use somewhat the timeline that is already in place. In the cap world you build for a 4-7 year period where you are a legit Stanley Cup contender. But there is many steps to get to that level from a top 5 picking team. And if you pick up a team already 2-3 years into that build like Chevy inherited from Atlanta you must adhere to that timeline, in particular when you inherited an already aging core (Enstrom, Ladd, Byfuglien, Wheeler). People don't like to think of a mid-20's core as aging, but in these days of UFA they are. Many people are saying we are 2-3 years away from playoffs. In other words they are saying we not going to be SC contenders until Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Pavelec, Kane, Bogosian are UFA and due for huge raises, starting to decline and we will not even be able to build a consistant contender.

If Chevy wanted to completely rebuild, the time was 2 years ago. Now the core is aging. It's time to put up or shut up.
If all of those names are in decline, and UFA - why on earth would we give them huge raises? I would think that contention should get to a level of continuous "cycles" where you have a so called core (I dislike the notion, but I understand it) of a certain number of guys, whatever that number may be (6 guys?) that every 2 or 3 years a guy or two should be moving off - replaced by another guy or two - hopefully that you draft and develop.

I actually like some of your points in regard to this topic, I am just not sure I am sold on definitive "windows of time" with a core. I think it is a cycle that needs continuous evaluation and refresh...e.g. Morrisey may be the refresh to Enstrom?

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08-01-2013, 09:44 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
Correction - YOU MUST take the previous years in Atlanta under consideration.

"We", on the other hand can decide for ourselves. For me, this is the start of year 3 of the "re-build".

And I expect to see progress. Time will tell how much progress. I will reserve any judgement until I see what transpires this year.
So you are content with 9th place indefinitely? I don't see the progress with the roster, unless we are depend hugely on rookies. Because right now that is what we are projecting at....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCsmyth View Post
If all of those names are in decline, and UFA - why on earth would we give them huge raises? I would think that contention should get to a level of continuous "cycles" where you have a so called core (I dislike the notion, but I understand it) of a certain number of guys, whatever that number may be (6 guys?) that every 2 or 3 years a guy or two should be moving off - replaced by another guy or two - hopefully that you draft and develop.

I actually like some of your points in regard to this topic, I am just not sure I am sold on definitive "windows of time" with a core. I think it is a cycle that needs continuous evaluation and refresh...e.g. Morrisey may be the refresh to Enstrom?
We give them raises since they are UFA eligible. Which is part of the process. However we have a ridiculous amount of players hitting that age considering the stage we are at (not even at the playoff stage yet). That's basically the point, these is MUCH easier to handle if we are already a playoff team.

We would all like to be a team that recycles a core and continues to develop while playing good hockey. You know how many team have been able to do that in the past 30 years? One. Detroit. For the past 20 years. We all want to strive towards that, but that's simply not a realistic goal. Very few team can do that replace the players with drafted players. In fact it's ONE team out of the 50 or SC contending teams in the past 20-30 teams in the past 20 years that have been able to do that. Let's set more realistic goals.

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08-01-2013, 09:48 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I understand this mentality but disagree with it COMPELTELY.

If we are looking at historical (and I am talking last 10 years under cap with exception of Detroit who cannot count due to abnormal consistency) comparaisons, we MUST take the previous years in Atlanta under consideration. The process of building a team does NOT start with a change in management at all. It starts and ends with simply the talent on the roster.

Every single past cup winner in the past decade has added a solid veteran who helped stabilize the core BEFORE even becoming a contender. There is no empirical evidence to support the theory that we need to become a contender before adding that presence on the team, like many would suggest since we are only at year "3". In fact all the evidence we are already late bordering on starting a new rebuild before we make progress.

You all might consider this year 3, but in terms of ages and core development we are clearly at year 6 or beyond and time is QUICKLY running out to start taking that next step.
It's an interesting debate

First and foremost if our goal is to win a cup in the next 3 to 5 years I think you are probably right and barring the playoff march starting "now" this core may be aging out before they can get it done. As far as adding a veteran goes to stabalize the core it is an interesting poing and maybe something we do still this summer or next off season.

Honestly the time for a full blown rebuild was probably when Kovy left. I don't begrudge Waddell for trying to get Kovy extended but when it blew up I think they missed an opportunity to let things bottom out. They had Bogosian and Kane in the fold and had they not reloaded (Ladd, Buff, Wheeler) they would have been legit lottery contenders for a couple of seasons and had a base of four or five elite "young" players to build around. I don't think Atlanta had the luxury of letting the team bottom out but in some ways Dudley might have gotten in the way by his slick moves as the new GM in 2010.

I would love for us to build a cup winner that you outline but I think there is a bigger short term goal. To me the first stage is establishing franchise credibility (Yes I mean including the Thrasher years). If you go back to 1990 Winnipeg Jets 1.0 were at best a bubble playoff team with some nice rookies coming into the fold in the early 90's but little hope due to the state of the NHL and it’s have and have not teams. Back then the Jets would make the playoffs every 2nd year but they were always punted in the 1st round. Then you take the Thrashers and their 1 playoff appearance in their history and that really needs no explanation. Move the team over the border to Winnipeg and despite the great story and the jam packed electrifying MTS centre it is largely still the same quarter century old story with new actors in our painfully long running production. NEVER A LEGIT SHOT

I believe the goal will be for TNSE to turn that state around. We need to move off the 25 year rut of being a lower bubble team that makes the playoffs once or twice in 10 years and is stuck in the death loop of sub-mediocrity (never drafting high enough to change things). I know that might seem like too modest a goal but I believe one of the keys was securing this core into long term deals. Now that doesn't mean they will all play out these contracts in Winnipeg but we secured assets and it has bought us time to allow the fruits of our draft and develop labor to be harvested while we make the playoffs. There is no reason this core can't begin a 3 year playoff run and move our organization up over the hump from bubble boys looking in from the outside to a team that can be a regular playoff team over the next 3 to 5 year period (well no reason other than that pesky goaltending challenge).

I think first things first......we need to start getting there and then we can worry about cups. Once we get there we need to continue to build on our "D & D" plan to fill the prospect cupboards and that is the ammunition any GM needs to make moves. You can always trade a key asset or two and add draft picks and prospects to keep it going but you need to do it out of a position of talent depth. You also need to be an organization players want to play for and believe in and anyone who thinks that part of Chevy's job was easy is really underselling it.

Do I think this core can win a cup.....probably not but it is not beyond the realm of possibility in 3 seasons with Conn Smythe goaltending. Do I think they can push us over the hump and get us into the playoffs for 3 or 4 consecutive years, I think we can do that and transform the culture of the Jets-Thrashers-Jets and if you get into the playoffs who knows.

I hear what you are saying about Detroit being alone at the top in ability to maintain..........that being said there is a mid ground for now where we need to stop living in the bottom 3rd of the league


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08-01-2013, 09:55 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
So you are content with 9th place indefinitely? I don't see the progress with the roster, unless we are depend hugely on rookies. Because right now that is what we are projecting at....



We give them raises since they are UFA eligible. Which is part of the process. However we have a ridiculous amount of players hitting that age considering the stage we are at (not even at the playoff stage yet). That's basically the point, these is MUCH easier to handle if we are already a playoff team.

We would all like to be a team that recycles a core and continues to develop while playing good hockey. You know how many team have been able to do that in the past 30 years? One. Detroit. For the past 20 years. We all want to strive towards that, but that's simply not a realistic goal. Very few team can do that replace the players with drafted players. In fact it's ONE team out of the 50 or SC contending teams in the past 20-30 teams in the past 20 years that have been able to do that. Let's set more realistic goals.
I understand where you are coming from, but I think that there are a few other variables to consider. Perhaps most important is an assessment of where the current core players are in their trajectory. I expect that the Jets believe that Kane can become a much more productive forward with another year of experience and some better linemates. They must be banking on Byfuglien improving his conditioning and effectiveness. If they are right about Buff and Kane, then this team will take a step forward, I think. Setoguchi and Frolik are improvements (in my opinion). I don't think we lose that much without Hainsey, but understand that others feel differently.

I think that this is a crucial year. If they are stuck in mediocrity or worse, then they need to consider some changes to the core. That should probably start with Buff and Pavs. If Scheifele and Trouba turn into upper echelon players, and some of the other draft picks pan out, they should be at least a playoff contender in the coming years.

The other issue that I think needs to be watched carefully is coaching. Chevy has made the bet that this group of players is good enough. If they don't have success on the ice, Noel will be the first to go.


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08-01-2013, 10:20 AM
  #64
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sigh

there is more to making the playoffs then 5 or even 6 core players

You need a supporting cast, which wasnt there, and some could even argue that still isnt.

As for one of the worst defences in the league.... be prepared to get burnt alive....
And when you pay these guys the money we did, it's hard to improve a supporting cast when you're near cap max.

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08-01-2013, 10:22 AM
  #65
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"Re-build". The most over used term by hockey fans today. I blame the pilons on tsn.

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08-01-2013, 10:26 AM
  #66
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It's an interesting debate

First and foremost if our goal is to win a cup in the next 3 to 5 years I think you are probably right and barring the playoff march starting "now" this core may be aging out before they can get it done. As far as adding a veteran goes to stabalize the core it is an interesting poing and maybe something we do still this summer or next off season.

Honestly the time for a full blown rebuild was probably when Kovy left. I don't begrudge Waddell for trying to get Kovy extended but when it blew up I think they missed an opportunity to let things bottom out. They had Bogosian and Kane in the fold and had they not reloaded (Ladd, Buff, Wheeler) they would have been legit lottery contenders for a couple of seasons and had a base of four or five elite "young" players to build around. I don't think Atlanta had the luxury of letting the team bottom out but in some ways Dudley might have gotten in the way by his slick moves as the new GM in 2010.

I would love for us to build a cup winner that you outline but I think there is a bigger short term goal. To me the first stage is establishing franchise credibility (Yes I mean including the Thrasher years). If you go back to 1990 Winnipeg Jets 1.0 were at best a bubble playoff team with some nice rookies coming into the fold in the early 90's but little hope due to the state of the NHL and itís have and have not teams. Back then the Jets would make the playoffs every 2nd year but they were always punted in the 1st round. Then you take the Thrashers and their 1 playoff appearance in their history and that really needs no explanation. Move the team over the border to Winnipeg and despite the great story and the jam packed electrifying MTS centre it is largely still the same quarter century old story with new actors in our painfully long running production. NEVER A LEGIT SHOT

I believe the goal will be for TNSE to turn that state around. We need to move off the 25 year rut of being a lower bubble team that makes the playoffs once or twice in 10 years and is stuck in the death loop of sub-mediocrity (never drafting high enough to change things). I know that might seem like too modest a goal but I believe one of the keys was securing this core into long term deals. Now that doesn't mean they will all play out these contracts in Winnipeg but we secured assets and it has bought us time to allow the fruits of our draft and develop labor to be harvested while we make the playoffs. There is no reason this core can't begin a 3 year playoff run and move our organization up over the hump from bubble boys looking in from the outside to a team that can be a regular playoff team over the next 3 to 5 year period.

I think first things first......we need to start getting there and then we can worry about cups. Once we get there we need to continue to build on our "D & D" plan to fill the prospect cupboards and that is the ammunition any GM needs to make moves. You can always trade a key asset or two and add draft picks and prospects to keep it going but you need to do it out of a position of talent depth. You also need to be an organization players want to play for and believe in and anyone who thinks that part of Chevy's job was easy is really underselling it.

Do I think this core can win a cup.....probably not but it is not beyond the realm of possibility in 3 seasons with Conn Smythe goaltending. Do I think they can push us over the hump and get us into the playoffs for 3 or 4 consecutive years, I think we can do that and transform the culture of the Jets-Thrashers-Jets and if you get into the playoffs who knows.

I hear what you are saying about Detroit being alone at the top in ability to maintain..........that being said there is a mid ground for now of just getting better for now.
I am confused ps241. Honestly I usually agree with you, but I am flat confused by this.

Yes we want to "change the culture". Sure. Whatever that means (second most overrated phrase after "asset management")

However your post seems to indicate that we want to squeak into playoffs for 4-5 years, never having a real shot, but just being there to indicate we are there.

Then later you seem to indicate that is not the goal. That is what I am confused about. It's one or the other. My problem that if this is the core we are going with it is time NOW to take the next step. If not, sure we can be that bubble team forever like Jets 1.0, but who in the **** wants that? Really? I want a Stanley Cup Champion, I don't want the 1/64 chance every year AFTER making playoffs.

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Originally Posted by Whileee View Post
I understand where you are coming from, but I think that there are a few other variables to consider. Perhaps most important is an assessment of where the current core players are in their trajectory. I expect that the Jets believe that Kane can become a much more productive forward with another year of experience and some better linemates. They must be banking on Byfuglien improving his conditioning and effectiveness. If they are right about Buff and Kane, then this team will take a step forward, I think. Setoguchi and Frolik are improvements (in my opinion).

I don't think we lose that much without Hainsey, but understand that others feel differently.

I think that this is a crucial year. If they are stuck in mediocrity or worse, then they need to consider some changes to the core. That should probably start with Buff and Pavs. If Scheifele and Trouba turn into upper echelon players, and some of the other draft picks pan out, they should be at least a playoff contender in the coming years.

The other issue that I think needs to be watched carefully is coaching. Chevy has made the bet that this group of players is good enough. If they don't have success on the ice, Noel will be the first to go.
If they are completely dependant on raw rookies like Scheifele and Trouba, this manahement core is abosulte ****! Are you kidding me?

You want rookies to come and make a difference, IF they are better than the existing core. Otherwise you are at square one ala when Burmi or Kane broke in with completely weak useless teams.

And if you are EXPECTING mid-age players like Pavelec, Ladd, Wheeler and yes ever Kane(as a goalscorer) and Bogosian (as a shutdown guy) then again you are a moron. You cannot DEPEND on development, that's what puts you over the top, not makes or break you.

TBH, with the loss of Hainsey and Antropov compared to acquistions of Setoguchi and Frolik I consider that a wash AT BEST. Antro and Hainsey haters feel different obviously, but I think most true hockey fans know that hockey smarts we have lost is significant.

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Old
08-01-2013, 10:34 AM
  #67
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The bottom line is this: We will never have any success if we are getting rid of budding superstars like Spencer Machacek. Seriously, ALMOST a ppg in the AHL and a bad attitude to boot? Sign me up!

I wouldn't call Clitsome an overpayment. He is a decent defenseman, and if we let him go we wouldn't have been able to replace him at anywhere near the same cost.

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08-01-2013, 10:37 AM
  #68
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And good lord... Antropov and Hainsey are better than Setoguchi and Frolik? I guess I'm not a true hockey fan, because I like my forwards to play at the top of their game more than 5 times in a season. Hainsey was in a downward spiral at the end of the season. I'm happy to never again see the softest defensive defenseman in NHL history.

Can someone tell me why our defense sucked so bad last year, but Hainsey was so great? Are we really blaming it all on the goalie, Clitsome, and Byfuglien, who didn't even play in a lot of games?

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08-01-2013, 10:40 AM
  #69
surixon
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I'd say the stupid ridiculous overpayment of Clitsome (which will burn us by the TD guaranteed) is also a misstep many people will see very soon. As well as releasing talented players like Machacek [who was nearly ppg with CBS AHL btw] and Kulda for plugs like Thorburn and Pardy (honestly I can't lose here since I don't see either Thorburn or Pardy as legit NHL talents unless they magically develop and I am a firm believer than Machacek and Kulda simply need the chance, even if they have to go KHL to get it).

The most important thing, IMO, is that he has done not NEARLY enough to bring in legit NHL talent to take this team to the next step. Being patient is nice, but we are in year #6 of this rebuild, it is time to start adding pieces to become a contender, ala Scuderi, Chara, Hossa, Khabibulin, Mitchell. these are guys added before the team is a contender that will be a huge presence on this team going forward that will help the team develop and eventually help them become legit SC contenders.
This again! You seem to be quite selective in your plug definition: mahachuk and kulda aren't plugs despite both being in their mid twenties and doing nothing in the show yet guys like Clitsome and other Chevy pick ups are when they have actually proven things in the NHL. Also 14 points in 18 games isn't close to a ppg, infact that .77 ppg is no different than his previous couple of years in the AHL. Mahachuk is pretty much the same player offensively that he was three years ago.

Its funny that you are critical of the lack of veteran playoff presence but you completely neglect to mention that Chevy brought in roughly 100 games of playoff experience this summer (could go to 150 ish if they sign Raymond). It looks like he has been addressing those issues but because you don't like the players in questions he hasn't done enough!

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08-01-2013, 10:44 AM
  #70
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You are starting your own "build" but you use the blocks in place. For example Kings GM used blocks like Dustin Brown, Anze Kopitar, Jonathan Quick that were already in place however you still need to use somewhat the timeline that is already in place. In the cap world you build for a 4-7 year period where you are a legit Stanley Cup contender. But there is many steps to get to that level from a top 5 picking team. And if you pick up a team already 2-3 years into that build like Chevy inherited from Atlanta you must adhere to that timeline, in particular when you inherited an already aging core (Enstrom, Ladd, Byfuglien, Wheeler). People don't like to think of a mid-20's core as aging, but in these days of UFA they are. Many people are saying we are 2-3 years away from playoffs. In other words they are saying we not going to be SC contenders until Ladd, Wheeler, Little, Enstrom, Byfuglien, Pavelec, Kane, Bogosian are UFA and due for huge raises, starting to decline and we will not even be able to build a consistant contender.

If Chevy wanted to completely rebuild, the time was 2 years ago. Now the core is aging. It's time to put up or shut up.
This is a pretty deep debate already going on, but the part in bold stands out to me like a sore thumb.

To me, we are NOT 2-3 years away from the playoffs. The playoffs are expectations upon this group in the now and today. Fact is, this team just missed out last season, this team is a playoff contender. Now with the designated "core" in place contractually, it's time to go to work.

With this core in place, the time is NOW for expectations to be firmly placed and results to be demanded. This is Chevy's team now, 100%. He locked up the "core", he drafted the prospects knocking on the door (Scheifele, Trouba), he put this supporting cast in place (Jokinen, Setoguchi, Frolik, Halischuk, Wright, Peluso, etc, even re-signed Slater to 3-years last summer).

Chevy also prevented this coming year from being a "lame duck" season for Noel, but in truth he gave him a "lame duck" extension. It's "playoffs" or "you're fired" now, as far as I am concerned.

You see, over the last 2 years, Chevy knew these key players had expiring contracts and he knew he would come to a point where he as the man in charge would have to decide whether or not to go long-term with each of them, he chose to do so. They are now his responsibility, his team, his vision, his fingerprints. How was he to "build a team" yet not truly know who or what his core was? or how long he could potentially sign them if he so chose to do so (and again, he did). You cannot build a home until your foundation is set. And again, I cannot say it enough, it takes INDIVIDUALS to form a team. If those individuals are not ready nor at a point where they are ready to be "the guy" in their role whether they are 20 or 24 years of age, then you cannot go full steam ahead "yet". Now, these players know who and what they are all about as hockey players, as the individuals that can now form this team.

The time is now for this team, or consequences will show itself, I have no doubt about that.

Truth is, there is now pressure to succeed, there is now expectations from the top with Ownership, Chevy, etc, down to Noel, down to the players.


I have just recently begun doing some writing for Arctic Ice Hockey for fun. I thoroughly enjoy writing. Here are two of my articles from the last couple days which touch on my view of this current team.

Why Jets core wasn't ready upon relocating to Winnipeg


Kevin Cheveldayoff, this is now your team, for better or worse



I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but that is my own personal opinion in those articles.


Last edited by Guerzy: 08-01-2013 at 10:53 AM.
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08-01-2013, 10:59 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
This is a pretty deep debate already going on, but the part in bold stands out to me like a sore thumb.

To me, we are NOT 2-3 years away from the playoffs. The playoffs are expectations upon this group in the now and today. Fact is, this team just missed out last season, this team is a playoff contender. Now with the designated "core" in place contractually, it's time to go to work.
That's the problem, though. This team was a playoff contender in the laughable SE. Are they one in the West this coming season? That's open for debate, but I think that a lot of things need to go simply average (ie. Pavelec's sv%) if not very good in order to just be a bubble team.

So what happens if (and in my humble, yet pessimistic, opinion when) they miss the playoffs this year? And what if they miss badly? What then? This core is locked up with long term deals and no-trade clauses.

To expect the playoffs out of this club is a flawed premise. Will they be competitive for the 8th spot? Maybe. And I certainly hope they are. But I have a hard time believing that they are among the top-8 teams "on paper" right now. Can they contend? Maybe. But if that is all we're asking for in year 3 of this return, I'm not pleased with that.

Anyways, welcome to AIH Guerzy! It's about time we brought some positivity aboard, as I've done a nice job with the other side of that coin!

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08-01-2013, 11:04 AM
  #72
Guerzy
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That's the problem, though. This team was a playoff contender in the laughable SE. Are they one in the West this coming season? That's open for debate, but I think that a lot of things need to go simply average (ie. Pavelec's sv%) if not very good in order to just be a bubble team.

So what happens if (and in my humble, yet pessimistic, opinion when) they miss the playoffs this year? And what if they miss badly? What then? This core is locked up with long term deals and no-trade clauses.

To expect the playoffs out of this club is a flawed premise. Will they be competitive for the 8th spot? Maybe. And I certainly hope they are. But I have a hard time believing that they are among the top-8 teams "on paper" right now. Can they contend? Maybe. But if that is all we're asking for in year 3 of this return, I'm not pleased with that.

Anyways, welcome to AIH Guerzy! It's about time we brought some positivity aboard, as I've done a nice job with the other side of that coin!
That's certainly valid, Arby. But it's hard for me to argue against something we have yet to see (playing in the West). So, all I can do is go by what this team (Core) has done in the present, to date. The East and West were similar in team points in terms of who made the playoffs and who missed. I don't feel there is a huge difference in East vs. West but we shall see.

I am not sold on this core, they do indeed have LOTS to prove. Now, the clock is really ticking, now the expectations are in place and they best meet those with results or we will (finally) see consequences from coaching changes to bold roster changes, I feel. Yes we have players on contract with NTC and NMC, but that's just how it goes in this day and age in the NHL. Players can still be moved. Maybe we will be stuck with them, maybe no other team would want them if they fail here in Winnipeg. That will be the consequences Chevy and co. face. I say bring it on, I am looking forward to expectations and results.

It's just my opinion. I expected to compete for the playoffs last season, we did just that. I expect to make the playoffs this season... let's see how we do.

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08-01-2013, 11:05 AM
  #73
Holden Caulfield
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This again! You seem to be quite selective in your plug definition: mahachuk and kulda aren't plugs despite both being in their mid twenties and doing nothing in the show yet guys like Clitsome and other Chevy pick ups are when they have actually proven things in the NHL. Also 14 points in 18 games isn't close to a ppg, infact that .77 ppg is no different than his previous couple of years in the AHL. Mahachuk is pretty much the same player offensively that he was three years ago.

Its funny that you are critical of the lack of veteran playoff presence but you completely neglect to mention that Chevy brought in roughly 100 games of playoff experience this summer (could go to 150 ish if they sign Raymond). It looks like he has been addressing those issues but because you don't like the players in questions he hasn't done enough!
Of course your right. Remind me again when Chris Thorburn got over 20 points in a season, nevermind 9pts in just 13 games. And when Peluso managed to crack 10pts in the ******* AHL. And explain to me again how Boxing skills in ANY way impact the game of hockey. Clitsome's awesome turnovers were clearly why we made playoffs right? A reliable player on the blueline would have been so useless.

Setoguchi might be a veteran presence...if he had EVER bothered to show up for the playoffs. Frolik is a hard worker but you are REALLY kidding yourself if you think he is any kind of difference maker, including playoffs.

Do people REALLY expect Setoguchi and Frolik to be the answer? I don't. Hell maybe Seto gets clean and has a career year and Frolik somehow from some accident refinds his rookie touch 5 years later...but I don't see it.

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08-01-2013, 11:26 AM
  #74
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I kinda see it both ways tbh. But I do think it is much ado about nothing.

On one hand, Holden is saying that this core needs to get it done or you need to blow it up and start again with the younger core based around Kane, Bogo, Scheifele, Trouba and Morrissey.

Where as everybody else here is saying that they don't see this as being 6 years into building a contender and that they don't recognize what happened in Atlanta..

Well...

Like it or not....

These players get older every year whether you admit that this used to be the Atlanta thrashers or not. By getting older they use up more core years wallowing in the dreaded in between.

The point is...if you cannot win a cup in the next five years with this core, then alot of your players are too old to be core players and it is time to sell them off and base your team around another core group of players.

Sorry boys and girls, but that's just real facts is all. I personally like the fact that we've replace some of the older members of the roster and got younger and faster and ironically more playoff experience.

That's a step in the right direction.

I see what Holden is saying about the stabilizing Veteran and I had hopes tht Jokinen could have been the guy, but Barring a huge comeback I'm not seeing it. I had also hoped that Pominville would have been that guy, but alas, that was not to be.

However, I do think this team has what it takes to actually be able to make the playoffs this year, or as far as Im concerned...see ya coach lol. I think this ore has the talent and the ability to actually be winners, but it greatly depends on Pavelec taking a step fwd this year. I think it could happen as he as the pure talent to be a high level goalie in the league, but the mechanics of his game hold him back.

Chevy and co have faith in him, for whatever reason...maybe just the reason I gave.

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08-01-2013, 11:43 AM
  #75
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I am confused ps241. Honestly I usually agree with you, but I am flat confused by this.

Yes we want to "change the culture". Sure. Whatever that means (second most overrated phrase after "asset management")

However your post seems to indicate that we want to squeak into playoffs for 4-5 years, never having a real shot, but just being there to indicate we are there.

Then later you seem to indicate that is not the goal. That is what I am confused about. It's one or the other. My problem that if this is the core we are going with it is time NOW to take the next step. If not, sure we can be that bubble team forever like Jets 1.0, but who in the **** wants that? Really? I want a Stanley Cup Champion, I don't want the 1/64 chance every year AFTER making playoffs.



If they are completely dependant on raw rookies like Scheifele and Trouba, this manahement core is abosulte ****! Are you kidding me?

You want rookies to come and make a difference, IF they are better than the existing core. Otherwise you are at square one ala when Burmi or Kane broke in with completely weak useless teams.

And if you are EXPECTING mid-age players like Pavelec, Ladd, Wheeler and yes ever Kane(as a goalscorer) and Bogosian (as a shutdown guy) then again you are a moron. You cannot DEPEND on development, that's what puts you over the top, not makes or break you.

TBH, with the loss of Hainsey and Antropov compared to acquistions of Setoguchi and Frolik I consider that a wash AT BEST. Antro and Hainsey haters feel different obviously, but I think most true hockey fans know that hockey smarts we have lost is significant.
I have to admit Holden, I don't think there is another poster on HF that I respect so much, yet disagree with so often. And I don't mean that as an insult. There is nothing wrong with healthy debate. I'll give you this - you have a VERY clear picture of the timing and steps necessary to build a winner. No one can ever fault you for being wishy-washy. You are just too rigid IMO.

I'm going to focus solely on the bolded.

What drives the shift in overall talent level in the NHL? Young players that were once too young/weak/inexperienced/raw to play in the NHL enter the league and progress through their mid to late 20's. Old players regress and eventually retire because they become too slow/weak/ineffective. Every player in the league starts out not being good enough for the NHL and ends up not being good enough for the NHL.

To suggest that one of the youngest teams in the league - a team that has embraced a draft-and-develop strategy publicly - should not expect rookies to contribute or the progression of their young stars (eg. Kane and Bogo) to be a factor is silly in my opinion.

We SHOULD EXPECT the young core to progress and the blue-chip rookies to eventually contribute and we should be supplementing that core with the best veteran depth that we can. It all comes down to goaltending IMO. If we could get average starting goaltending, we would be a playoff team right now and we'd still be trending upwards.

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