HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Winnipeg Jets
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

I'mma call BS on The RR Agenda...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
08-01-2013, 04:26 PM
  #126
surixon
Registered User
 
surixon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arby18 View Post
Really? As in Charlie Coyle, the guy who played 37 games last year? Or Jonas Brodin, who should have at least been nominated for the Calder, and his 45 games last year?

I'd be willing to look at it from the other way and ask why our prospects are so special. Scheifele has done nothing in 11 career NHL games (no thanks to Noel putting him in the bottom-6, but who's to say that's going to change), and Trouba has yet to play a single NHL game.

Or Couturier or Hamilton, for that matter. The fact remains that these guys have NHL experience playing major minutes. Our guys? Well...
This is Minnesota's second line:

Coyole: 37 games 14 points .37 ppg
Niederreiter: 3 points in 64 games .05 ppg
Granlund: 0.30 ppg

Be honest, if this was Winnipeg doing the same thing you'd be out-raged. None of these players have proven much of anything just like Scheifele. Not saying these players wont be good but that is a heck a lot of pressure to put square on the shoulders of a bunch of young kids none of which has broken out offensively yet to carry the entire secondary scoring of the Wild.

Meanwhile we have a Kane and Seto to carry the secondary scoring on this team all Scheifele would have to do is provide offensive support to those two. Which situation is better and be honest!

surixon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 04:52 PM
  #127
arby18
#whatdidchevydotoday
 
arby18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 478
vCash: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by surixon View Post
This is Minnesota's second line:

Coyole: 37 games 14 points .37 ppg
Niederreiter: 3 points in 64 games .05 ppg
Granlund: 0.30 ppg


Be honest, if this was Winnipeg doing the same thing you'd be out-raged. None of these players have proven much of anything just like Scheifele. Not saying these players wont be good but that is a heck a lot of pressure to put square on the shoulders of a bunch of young kids none of which has broken out offensively yet to carry the entire secondary scoring of the Wild.

Meanwhile we have a Kane and Seto to carry the secondary scoring on this team all Scheifele would have to do is provide offensive support to those two. Which situation is better and be honest!
Um... Parise, Koivu, Pominville and Heatley would be above all three of those guys. Brodziak and maybe even Matt Cooke too, so I'm not sure why you quoted those 3 as the 2nd line.

Suffice it to say that there is no way all three of those youngsters would play together unless injuries or a tank-job after the trade dead-line happened. And you're right, I'd be furious if that happened here.

arby18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 05:17 PM
  #128
surixon
Registered User
 
surixon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arby18 View Post
Um... Parise, Koivu, Pominville and Heatley would be above all three of those guys. Brodziak and maybe even Matt Cooke too, so I'm not sure why you quoted those 3 as the 2nd line.

Suffice it to say that there is no way all three of those youngsters would play together unless injuries or a tank-job after the trade dead-line happened. And you're right, I'd be furious if that happened here.
Well that's what a number of Wild fans seem to think is going to happen. Brodziak and Cooke are bottom 6 players and produce at said level. Winnipeg more than offsets that with Frolik and Olie in the bottom 6. Heatley will be coming off major surgery and at his age there is really no telling how he will do. My main point is that every team in our division outside of Chicago also have question marks, some more and some less pressing than the Jets.

Wild: Secondary scoring and defensive depth (Very weak bottom 4)

St. Louis: Goaltending and scoring (Which Elliot and which Stewert show up? Can youngsters Tarasanko and Schwartz provide primary and secondary scoring?

Nashville: Scoring (Who's going to score their goals? They will be placing an awful lot of pressure on rookie Forsberg and an aging Cullen to provide offense)


Dallas: Center question marks, secondary scoring and defensive depth. Can Seguin successfully convert back to center, will Horcoff rebound?. I count 3 good top 6 players (Benn, Seguin and an ancient Whiteny) Where is the secondary offense going to come from? Very weak defense that will be counting on two 35 plus year old Vets in Gonchar and Robidas to carry the load.

Colorado has been touched upon numerously already.

surixon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 06:45 PM
  #129
boanst
Registered User
 
boanst's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 470
vCash: 500
I am always a bit skeptical about charts and studies involving averages. I didn't put it together, but I could see how more fringe players on the younger side of the spectrum could drag those totals down.

Does this thing account for minimum amount of games played in a year? Take a look at a few teams' players stats pages and look at how many players that play less than 20 games, and with low point totals to go with them. Seems logical to me that teams will give opportunities to the younger hands on the farm over the older hands in most cases. We had mostly younger players come up, with Meech, Gagnon, and Jaffray being exceptions.

Seeing as this debate is about the age of the "core", then the argument about peak age should be analyzed using NHL regulars only.

That players 23-26 usually have a higher p/60 makes sense to me, as while small opportunities may be likely to be outsourced to young players, I think most coach are inclined to go with the more established players for their top lines. I can't say for sure, but I believe in diminishing returns to a degree when it comes to ice time.

boanst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 09:06 PM
  #130
truck
Registered User
 
truck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,809
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by surixon View Post
Well that's what a number of Wild fans seem to think is going to happen. Brodziak and Cooke are bottom 6 players and produce at said level. Winnipeg more than offsets that with Frolik and Olie in the bottom 6. Heatley will be coming off major surgery and at his age there is really no telling how he will do. My main point is that every team in our division outside of Chicago also have question marks, some more and some less pressing than the Jets.

Wild: Secondary scoring and defensive depth (Very weak bottom 4)

St. Louis: Goaltending and scoring (Which Elliot and which Stewert show up? Can youngsters Tarasanko and Schwartz provide primary and secondary scoring?

Nashville: Scoring (Who's going to score their goals? They will be placing an awful lot of pressure on rookie Forsberg and an aging Cullen to provide offense)


Dallas: Center question marks, secondary scoring and defensive depth. Can Seguin successfully convert back to center, will Horcoff rebound?. I count 3 good top 6 players (Benn, Seguin and an ancient Whiteny) Where is the secondary offense going to come from? Very weak defense that will be counting on two 35 plus year old Vets in Gonchar and Robidas to carry the load.

Colorado has been touched upon numerously already.
Brodziak is only marginally better than Jim Slater IMO. They have terrible depth issues.

I personally don't see any of Min, Col, Dal or Nsh as scary. They all have big holes.

I don't see any such holes for Stl though.

truck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 09:29 PM
  #131
boanst
Registered User
 
boanst's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 470
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Brodziak is only marginally better than Jim Slater IMO. They have terrible depth issues.

I personally don't see any of Min, Col, Dal or Nsh as scary. They all have big holes.

I don't see any such holes for Stl though.
Which looks more formidable?

Min, Col, Nsh, Dal

or

Wsh, TB, Car, Fla

I'd say the new division only a bit, plus the toughest of the 8 teams is no longer in the same division

boanst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 09:34 PM
  #132
KingBogo
Admitted Homer
 
KingBogo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 14,479
vCash: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
This is a pretty deep debate already going on, but the part in bold stands out to me like a sore thumb.

To me, we are NOT 2-3 years away from the playoffs. The playoffs are expectations upon this group in the now and today. Fact is, this team just missed out last season, this team is a playoff contender. Now with the designated "core" in place contractually, it's time to go to work.

With this core in place, the time is NOW for expectations to be firmly placed and results to be demanded. This is Chevy's team now, 100%. He locked up the "core", he drafted the prospects knocking on the door (Scheifele, Trouba), he put this supporting cast in place (Jokinen, Setoguchi, Frolik, Halischuk, Wright, Peluso, etc, even re-signed Slater to 3-years last summer).

Chevy also prevented this coming year from being a "lame duck" season for Noel, but in truth he gave him a "lame duck" extension. It's "playoffs" or "you're fired" now, as far as I am concerned.

You see, over the last 2 years, Chevy knew these key players had expiring contracts and he knew he would come to a point where he as the man in charge would have to decide whether or not to go long-term with each of them, he chose to do so. They are now his responsibility, his team, his vision, his fingerprints. How was he to "build a team" yet not truly know who or what his core was? or how long he could potentially sign them if he so chose to do so (and again, he did). You cannot build a home until your foundation is set. And again, I cannot say it enough, it takes INDIVIDUALS to form a team. If those individuals are not ready nor at a point where they are ready to be "the guy" in their role whether they are 20 or 24 years of age, then you cannot go full steam ahead "yet". Now, these players know who and what they are all about as hockey players, as the individuals that can now form this team.

The time is now for this team, or consequences will show itself, I have no doubt about that.

Truth is, there is now pressure to succeed, there is now expectations from the top with Ownership, Chevy, etc, down to Noel, down to the players.


I have just recently begun doing some writing for Arctic Ice Hockey for fun. I thoroughly enjoy writing. Here are two of my articles from the last couple days which touch on my view of this current team.

Why Jets core wasn't ready upon relocating to Winnipeg


Kevin Cheveldayoff, this is now your team, for better or worse



I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but that is my own personal opinion in those articles.
Thanks Guerzy. I've always liked your opinions and for the most part I think along your lines. I know you follow the prospects pretty close, I hope you plan on a few articles analyzing how they are progressing.

KingBogo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 09:40 PM
  #133
garret9
AKA#VitoCorrelationi
 
garret9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 19,351
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Thanks Guerzy. I've always liked your opinions and for the most part I think along your lines. I know you follow the prospects pretty close, I hope you plan on a few articles analyzing how they are progressing.
He's a nice addition in that he a) writes well and b) rounds out our voice/opinions

Now that I'm done brown nosing!

garret9 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 09:45 PM
  #134
Guerzy
copycat poseur
 
Guerzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Friendly Manitoba
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 38,668
vCash: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
Thanks Guerzy. I've always liked your opinions and for the most part I think along your lines. I know you follow the prospects pretty close, I hope you plan on a few articles analyzing how they are progressing.
Thanks, KingBogo. I'll see what I can come up with over the season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
He's a nice addition in that he a) writes well and b) rounds out our voice/opinions

Now that I'm done brown nosing!
Thanks garret, keep the comments coming.

Guerzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 10:04 PM
  #135
surixon
Registered User
 
surixon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,804
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Brodziak is only marginally better than Jim Slater IMO. They have terrible depth issues.

I personally don't see any of Min, Col, Dal or Nsh as scary. They all have big holes.

I don't see any such holes for Stl though.
I admit I was stretching with them. They don't have an elite offense but they don't really need one.

surixon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 10:19 PM
  #136
ps241
.915 please Steve
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 21,393
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
Thanks, KingBogo. I'll see what I can come up with over the season.



Thanks garret, keep the comments coming.
Congrats Guerzy I like the articles already!

ps241 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 10:21 PM
  #137
ps241
.915 please Steve
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 21,393
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by boanst View Post
Which looks more formidable?

Min, Col, Nsh, Dal

or

Wsh, TB, Car, Fla

I'd say the new division only a bit, plus the toughest of the 8 teams is no longer in the same division
They have a poll going over on the main board about who is going to finish last in the division and we are running away with it at this point!!!

ps241 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 10:24 PM
  #138
truck
Registered User
 
truck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,809
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by surixon View Post
I admit I was stretching with them. They don't have an elite offense but they don't really need one.
Their offenceis good enough and they have some real solid prospects in the pipeline too.

I really admire how they are run. Very few organizations (possibly none) get more bang for their buck.

truck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 10:35 PM
  #139
YWGinYYZ
Mod Supervisor
 
YWGinYYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,315
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
They have a poll going over on the main board about who is going to finish last in the division and we are running away with it at this point!!!
Good. That's a bit like being picked to finish 14th in the East by the pundits last year, or like the Sens being picked to be dead last two years ago.

YWGinYYZ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-01-2013, 10:53 PM
  #140
Waldo
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,981
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
They have a poll going over on the main board about who is going to finish last in the division and we are running away with it at this point!!!
I don't doubt that but most don't have an intimate knowledge of the Jets and our players. It's good that we are underrated. Many of our own posters are negative so I would expect a great many from other sites to be negative.

I, however, have a really high opinion of our top players. There are no Crosbys or Malkins but LLW, Kane, and Bogo are all very talented, play consistently at a high level, and are leaders. Scheif and Trouba are very motivated and highly skilled. I have high hopes for them.

I read a fair amount of negatives by posters about our management, but if anything they are consistent and focused on drafting and developing. The common element that our prospects possess is drive and character. That will payoff bigtime in the future. I have high hopes for this upcoming season and will be happy as long as there is progress. I would expect that by 2014/15 that our prospects will begin to fill out the roster and provide our depth and special teams support. I never expected miracles but i do expect to make the playoffs.

Waldo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 01:53 AM
  #141
sully1410
#EggosForEleven
 
sully1410's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Calgary, Alta.
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,546
vCash: 127
I have say this...one thing I really like about this fan base is that I find that we are all very level headed and analytical about discussing this team and our chances. I don't think any of us are under the illusion that its a lock to make the playoffs, but I do believe that we do have one of the stronger rosters in the division. I think the rest of boards seem to be stuck under the illusion that we are still the Thrashers, and while we have our roots there...thats just not the case. I'm fine with everyone thinking that we wont make it, as it will be much more satisfying to watch them all eat crow as we see eight million "Winnipeg Jets are underrated?" on the main board.

I think this core has what it takes to make the playoffs, and I look at our prospects and can't help but feel that we are in much better shape then when the team first came here.

I cant wait for october!

sully1410 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 11:08 AM
  #142
Joe Hallenback
Registered User
 
Joe Hallenback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,032
vCash: 777
St.Louis "hole" is Hitchcock. He has a shelf life of a few years then the players revolt. Could be coming for the Blues soon

Joe Hallenback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 11:18 AM
  #143
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: 222 Tudor Terrace
Posts: 10,167
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
They have a poll going over on the main board about who is going to finish last in the division and we are running away with it at this point!!!
http://video.tsn.ca/videohub.aspx?dl...-latest/latest


Gump Hasek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 12:19 PM
  #144
wpgsilver
Registered User
 
wpgsilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,886
vCash: 50
I know there are a lot of Craig Button haters out there, but hearing how high he is on Mark is very encouraging. I'm not sure if he'll pot 20 goals this season OR be in the running for the Calder but its nice hearing someone with years of experience predicting that.

wpgsilver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 03:46 PM
  #145
james10011
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 122
vCash: 500
It all seems very hypothetical

Why is so much time and effort being spent on trying to define meaningless terms like "core", "window of opportunity" and "rebuilds"? Simply put, the goal of any NHL general manager should be identifying and reaping the benefits of deficiencies in the NHL labor market. I realize the biggest deficiency appears to be the highly skilled, young players on their cheap ELCs but if any player successfully outplays his dollar value then he is a positive asset. Different positive assets can be exchanged between teams in different stages of their developmental life cycle. I want to be the team which most takes advantage of opportunities to increase their net assets, not the team bound by a timeline inspired primarily by anecdotal evidence.

I don't necessarily believe the Jets are doing an especially good job of maximizing their return on investment but they did what was necessary to retain the rights of players they feel can be positive assets. It seems the worst case scenario is that the Jets don't find playoff success in the next few years and Ladd/Wheeler are moved for prospects to support our new "core" of Scheifelle, Trouba, Bogosian, Kane etc etc. Sure we could have dumped everyone year 1 and followed the Edmonton model but I don't mind our organization attempting dignity instead.

james10011 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 03:50 PM
  #146
ps241
.915 please Steve
 
ps241's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 21,393
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by james10011 View Post
Why is so much time and effort being spent on trying to define meaningless terms like "core", "window of opportunity" and "rebuilds"? Simply put, the goal of any NHL general manager should be identifying and reaping the benefits of deficiencies in the NHL labor market. I realize the biggest deficiency appears to be the highly skilled, young players on their cheap ELCs but if any player successfully outplays his dollar value then he is a positive asset. Different positive assets can be exchanged between teams in different stages of their developmental life cycle. I want to be the team which most takes advantage of opportunities to increase their net assets, not the team bound by a timeline inspired primarily by anecdotal evidence.

I don't necessarily believe the Jets are doing an especially good job of maximizing their return on investment but they did what was necessary to retain the rights of players they feel can be positive assets. It seems the worst case scenario is that the Jets don't find playoff success in the next few years and Ladd/Wheeler are moved for prospects to support our new "core" of Scheifelle, Trouba, Bogosian, Kane etc etc. Sure we could have dumped everyone year 1 and followed the Edmonton model but I don't mind our organization attempting dignity instead.
James welcome to the board and heck of a first post!!!

ps241 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 03:54 PM
  #147
YWGinYYZ
Mod Supervisor
 
YWGinYYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,315
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ps241 View Post
James welcome to the board and heck of a first post!!!
Agree - nice post james and some good thoughts. Love the "dignity" comment.

YWGinYYZ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
08-02-2013, 05:40 PM
  #148
Edgar Halliwax
aka Marvin Candle
 
Edgar Halliwax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by james10011 View Post
Why is so much time and effort being spent on trying to define meaningless terms like "core", "window of opportunity" and "rebuilds"? Simply put, the goal of any NHL general manager should be identifying and reaping the benefits of deficiencies in the NHL labor market. I realize the biggest deficiency appears to be the highly skilled, young players on their cheap ELCs but if any player successfully outplays his dollar value then he is a positive asset. Different positive assets can be exchanged between teams in different stages of their developmental life cycle. I want to be the team which most takes advantage of opportunities to increase their net assets, not the team bound by a timeline inspired primarily by anecdotal evidence.

I don't necessarily believe the Jets are doing an especially good job of maximizing their return on investment but they did what was necessary to retain the rights of players they feel can be positive assets. It seems the worst case scenario is that the Jets don't find playoff success in the next few years and Ladd/Wheeler are moved for prospects to support our new "core" of Scheifelle, Trouba, Bogosian, Kane etc etc. Sure we could have dumped everyone year 1 and followed the Edmonton model but I don't mind our organization attempting dignity instead.
Best first post EVER !!! I agree 100% with your sentiments.

Edgar Halliwax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 12:29 PM
  #149
SensibleGuy
Registered User
 
SensibleGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6,492
vCash: 500
Ralphie ain't been back long and he's already on my nerves. Is he seriously on the Virtuity ads thing again? How many times do I have to hear about these stupid things outside of the actual advert itself? The ads are lame...and spending air time talking about them is geometrically more so.

SensibleGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-03-2013, 02:29 PM
  #150
BigZ65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,813
vCash: 500
Is this referencing the interview with the Hockey News guy? The guy kept mentioning Edmonton as part of our division, I could feel RR's eyes rolling through the radio. It was brutal.

BigZ65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:27 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.