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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Seattle IV: The Money Will Roll Right In

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Old
08-10-2013, 02:04 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
in terms of shovel-in-the-ground, 2015 is realistically the earliest we'll see.
Could be 2014, but 2013 is now definitely out.

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08-10-2013, 03:02 AM
  #102
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I don't like that they moved the steps as well as that glass wall.

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08-10-2013, 07:26 PM
  #103
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Arctic Ice Hockey looks at potential expansion draft for Seattle. Meh. Color me unimpressed with the level of talent you can get from expansion draft


http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2013/...-draft-seattle

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08-10-2013, 07:44 PM
  #104
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Metropolitan Hockey Report has released the Media hockey panel from the Angry Beaver:


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JGO7geD...%3DJGO7geDhPNU

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08-10-2013, 08:02 PM
  #105
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Arctic Ice Hockey looks at potential expansion draft for Seattle. Meh. Color me unimpressed with the level of talent you can get from expansion draft


http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2013/...-draft-seattle
Well..... there is a reason why expansion teams tend to be incredibly awful in at least their first year or two in the league. If you get anything above a middling 3rd or 4th liner in an expansion draft, the team that lost him ****ed up in a big way or is the deepest team in a long, long time. Your core is essentially every other team's depth in your first year.

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08-10-2013, 11:13 PM
  #106
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Well..... there is a reason why expansion teams tend to be incredibly awful in at least their first year or two in the league. If you get anything above a middling 3rd or 4th liner in an expansion draft, the team that lost him ****ed up in a big way or is the deepest team in a long, long time. Your core is essentially every other team's depth in your first year.
It all depends on who ends up making the picking for seattle. If he is someone that knows how to build a roster, its possible depending on whos made available could get a decent roster

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08-10-2013, 11:20 PM
  #107
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Yeah, sure, it's possible.... but considering that you'll at best have a few role players and hopefully a great first overall draft pick as your absolute top-tier guys for at least the first season, you probably shouldn't expect much from an expansion team in their first year regardless of who's captaining the helm.

The Nashville Predators had about as good of a first year as you could possibly expect from an expansion team, and they still finished 15 points out of playoff contention.

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08-11-2013, 12:35 AM
  #108
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So really the only hope is you find a deep FA class and hit a home run with your Draft

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08-11-2013, 12:46 AM
  #109
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Sure, but would have to imagine that a lot of the higher-tiered free agents are going to be looking for money and the chance to win the Cup, so they're probably going to steer more towards contenders with cap space over an expansion team.

More likely than not, if an expansion happens and Seattle gets a team, you'd get mid- to low-NHL talent in the expansion draft, hopefully have a great regular draft class with a couple people starting from the get go (including hopefully a franchise superstar that you can build your team around for the next decade), and maybe a few decent free agents acquired through overpaying to get them to come to an assumed non-contender.

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08-11-2013, 01:00 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by superdeluxe View Post
Arctic Ice Hockey looks at potential expansion draft for Seattle. Meh. Color me unimpressed with the level of talent you can get from expansion draft


http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2013/...-draft-seattle
Man, some of those names on the unprotected list were surprising. Florida choosing to protect a 38 year old Clemmensen instead of Markstrom? Gabriel Bourque or Taylor Beck over one of Nashville's many 4th line grinders?

A tandem of Markstrom/Neuvrith would be an amazing haul for an expansion team. If that's the way it turned out in real life, the Seattle team could potentially have a nice little core.


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08-11-2013, 01:51 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by superdeluxe View Post
Arctic Ice Hockey looks at potential expansion draft for Seattle. Meh. Color me unimpressed with the level of talent you can get from expansion draft


http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2013/...-draft-seattle
You're surprised by that? There's a reason expansion teams are always bad.

Tyler Wright was the best player the Penguins lost in the 90s drafts and he holds the record for most games played in a season without scoring a point


To be fair there's a couple Penguins on that unprotected list significantly better than the ones from the 90s (namely Vokoun and Niskanen) and some others that would certainly trump the names in the 90s drafts (without leaving the state of Pennsylvania the Flyers have Grossman and Streit unprotected). An expansion team today wouldn't be a complete disgrace like the Sharks or Senators were, but expecting to compete from the start is just unrealistic. You also have to note that free agency is becoming less and less of a thing these days, though, so you're going to need a good drafting GM to make much headway in the early years nowadays.

That list was definitely weird with some teams...Markstrom over Clemmensen is just plain idiocy. Markstrom is Florida's future in goal; Clemmensen is a cheap back-up.

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Old
08-11-2013, 03:00 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by superdeluxe View Post
Metropolitan Hockey Report has released the Media hockey panel from the Angry Beaver:


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JGO7geD...%3DJGO7geDhPNU
I watched the whole thing with interest. I saw a panel with some knowledge and a crowd who mostly wanted to be told they were great.

There are some big gaping holes to fill, and it has little to do with Key Arena as a temporary site. That's not to say Seattle isn't happening; that's to say when panelists keep beating the drum about a grass roots effort, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY MEAN.

The problem is less with what's likely support from the league's front office (you seem to have that) and more with local issues. Owners do not step forward. The lawyers are targeting. The politicians seem to think they can make examples of sports fans in Seattle and Washington, most likely because many are taking cues from voters.

I'd actually look less at the Sounders and more at the Timbers. It's not enough to fill council meetings. Get an actual presence in Seattle... charity work, supporting the current hockey teams, organizing events for other hockey-related gatherings or supporting the overall hockey community, these are things that can be done and can grow a fan base. That's exactly what I saw in Portland.

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08-11-2013, 04:12 PM
  #113
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I watched the whole thing with interest. I saw a panel with some knowledge and a crowd who mostly wanted to be told they were great.

There are some big gaping holes to fill, and it has little to do with Key Arena as a temporary site. That's not to say Seattle isn't happening; that's to say when panelists keep beating the drum about a grass roots effort, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY MEAN.

The problem is less with what's likely support from the league's front office (you seem to have that) and more with local issues. Owners do not step forward. The lawyers are targeting. The politicians seem to think they can make examples of sports fans in Seattle and Washington, most likely because many are taking cues from voters.

I'd actually look less at the Sounders and more at the Timbers. It's not enough to fill council meetings. Get an actual presence in Seattle... charity work, supporting the current hockey teams, organizing events for other hockey-related gatherings or supporting the overall hockey community, these are things that can be done and can grow a fan base. That's exactly what I saw in Portland.
You have no idea what seattle is like. They are NOT a minor league team city. Sounders drew 2k+ before MLS came along.
How do you expect to grow a fanbase if there is no NHL team?

We have owners for a NHL team. Seattle sports fans both sonics and NHL fans caused the anti-arena Canaanite to not make it out of the seattle mayoral primary.

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08-11-2013, 11:54 PM
  #114
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You have no idea what seattle is like. They are NOT a minor league team city. Sounders drew 2k+ before MLS came along.
How do you expect to grow a fanbase if there is no NHL team?

We have owners for a NHL team. Seattle sports fans both sonics and NHL fans caused the anti-arena Canaanite to not make it out of the seattle mayoral primary.
Since the time I lived in Oak Harbor more than 20 years ago, I've seen all Seattle's major franchises threaten to leave at one point or another (and we know who actually did leave), I've seen UW football go from multiple Rose Bowls to the dregs filling half of Husky Stadium for games, and I saw this from 2005...

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/s....html?page=all

Past is not always prologue... and a LOT of people in Portland elicited surprise when the MLS Sounders started out by selling over 20,000 season tickets.

However, Seattle has, in the past, been lumped in with Atlanta and Miami as the worst major sports cities.

Here's a clue: when that panel talks about "crowds will be good... as long as they win," that's really saying that a team really has to be on the ball all the time, which generally doesn't always happen in pro sports (and much more rarely in the non-big 4-to-6 markets). One of the questions many people have is how the Sounders would fare if this arena was built and NBA returned, given the Sounders came about the spring after the Sonics left. You can bet the rumblings out in the woods led to the Dempsey signing, don't you think? Furthermore, it seems to take that once-every-ten-years good team to actually bring crowds to Mariners games. However, they went and bought Root Sports and complicated the whole process with getting viable local TV in Seattle.

THAT BEING SAID... I think hockey makes more sense in Seattle than in a substantial number of American markets currently in the league. That's been observed.

However, with the history, with "suite glut," with some uncertainty and hesitation surrounding the arena, under no circumstances would I leave an effort simply up to out-of-town owners to make a push that doesn't include a grass roots effort. I don't care if you're not a minor league market; start respecting what you have and build from it. I saw where that did happen and it blossomed into almost unimaginable beauty.

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08-12-2013, 12:10 AM
  #115
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Here's a clue: when that panel talks about "crowds will be good... as long as they win," that's really saying that a team really has to be on the ball all the time, which generally doesn't always happen in pro sports (and much more rarely in the non-big 4-to-6 markets)
That's pretty much any American professional sports team though not counting the NFL (and even some of THOSE teams have trouble drawing when the team stinks.....see Jacksonville). People forget pretty quick. Look at the Red Wings: They couldn't draw flies back in the '80s when they were awful. The Blackhawks have certainly played to empty seats when they were bad in the past too. That's the American sports scene: You have to give the fans a reason to pack the house.

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08-12-2013, 02:09 AM
  #116
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Yeah, sure, it's possible.... but considering that you'll at best have a few role players and hopefully a great first overall draft pick as your absolute top-tier guys for at least the first season, you probably shouldn't expect much from an expansion team in their first year regardless of who's captaining the helm.

The Nashville Predators had about as good of a first year as you could possibly expect from an expansion team, and they still finished 15 points out of playoff contention.
Best expansion year I can think of was the Panthers in 1993-94. Missed the playoffs by 1 point. 4th in the league in GA. Of course, the Rangers were only going to be able to protect 1 goalie in that expansion draft and the Panthers ended up with Vanbiesbrouck (after he was traded to Vancouver).

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08-12-2013, 08:22 AM
  #117
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Look, you don't live here and you don't know what you're talking about. If you go to the outlet mall by Seattle on just about any weekend you will find that the majority of cars have BC license plates. There are thousands of Canadians that travel to Seattle every day. Right now as I speak there is a two hour line-up at the border and tomorrow it will probably be three hours. It's the culture here. People from BC like traveling to the US. They don't necessarily think rationally about the price of gas etc.
And like you completely ignored, I said weekend games are not where you'll need people to buy tickets. No team every has problems with weekend ticket sales, in any league. It is the weekday crowd that a 2.5 hour drive won't do anything for. THAT is where Buffalo and Seattle are vastly different. Hell, starting in Buffalo you could drive to and from Toronto in the time it takes just to drive TO Seattle from BC. You're completely missing my point and the retort about a previous poster saying they are similar situations.

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08-12-2013, 06:14 PM
  #118
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That's pretty much any American professional sports team though not counting the NFL (and even some of THOSE teams have trouble drawing when the team stinks.....see Jacksonville). People forget pretty quick. Look at the Red Wings: They couldn't draw flies back in the '80s when they were awful. The Blackhawks have certainly played to empty seats when they were bad in the past too. That's the American sports scene: You have to give the fans a reason to pack the house.
It's somewhat true around the country. It happens to have been "more" true in Seattle... and a handful of other markets.

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08-13-2013, 12:48 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by PCSPounder View Post
Since the time I lived in Oak Harbor more than 20 years ago, I've seen all Seattle's major franchises threaten to leave at one point or another (and we know who actually did leave), I've seen UW football go from multiple Rose Bowls to the dregs filling half of Husky Stadium for games, and I saw this from 2005...

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/s....html?page=all

Past is not always prologue... and a LOT of people in Portland elicited surprise when the MLS Sounders started out by selling over 20,000 season tickets.

However, Seattle has, in the past, been lumped in with Atlanta and Miami as the worst major sports cities.

Here's a clue: when that panel talks about "crowds will be good... as long as they win," that's really saying that a team really has to be on the ball all the time, which generally doesn't always happen in pro sports (and much more rarely in the non-big 4-to-6 markets). One of the questions many people have is how the Sounders would fare if this arena was built and NBA returned, given the Sounders came about the spring after the Sonics left. You can bet the rumblings out in the woods led to the Dempsey signing, don't you think? Furthermore, it seems to take that once-every-ten-years good team to actually bring crowds to Mariners games. However, they went and bought Root Sports and complicated the whole process with getting viable local TV in Seattle.

THAT BEING SAID... I think hockey makes more sense in Seattle than in a substantial number of American markets currently in the league. That's been observed.

However, with the history, with "suite glut," with some uncertainty and hesitation surrounding the arena, under no circumstances would I leave an effort simply up to out-of-town owners to make a push that doesn't include a grass roots effort. I don't care if you're not a minor league market; start respecting what you have and build from it. I saw where that did happen and it blossomed into almost unimaginable beauty.
I used to live in Seattle too. The problems with the Mariners and Sonics leaving town had to do with they way they were run into the ground. The sonics were staffed by incompetence post Reign Man/Payton and the Mariners (during the last year of Pinella) wouldn't grow a pair and make the team a dynasty..

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08-13-2013, 02:30 AM
  #120
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Mitch levy wants people to listen in at 8 am tomorrow. States: if you listen to one segment all year, listen to this one. Could be anything.

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08-13-2013, 02:39 AM
  #121
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Some good points by John Barr of NHL to Seattle about Canadian attendance of M's games. They travel a lot and during the weekdays as well.

http://nhltoseattle.com/2013/08/09/c...rs-attendance/

Quote:
To wrap it up, I looked at the top 10 highest attended Monday through Wednesday games over the last 5 years and remarkably, Toronto has 3 out of the top 10 but when you remove the 3 opening nights that fell on*a Monday, Toronto had 3 of the Top 5.*I knew Canadians would often attended the Blue Jays games but I never expected the impact could be so significant. With 7 Canadian NHL*teams coming through Seattle a year,*plus BC and Alberta teams coming through multiple times, we are looking at a guaranteed 10 sellouts a year which is already more than 8 teams in the NHL.*This will be a distinct business advantage an NHL franchise in Seattle when comparing themselves to other teams because Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa and even the Leafs do not draw well on the road in most US markets. The Canadian impact could be a lot bigger than any of us could have predicted.

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08-13-2013, 10:15 AM
  #122
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I dispute the notion that all games against Canadian teams would sell out.

Since there's only one MLB team in Canada (*), Vancouver fans rally around them as "our" team. With seven Canadian teams (six of which are not the local Canucks), would someone drive all the way from White Rock on a Tuesday night to see the Senators (for example)?

(*) Even when the Expos were around, there was only one AL team coming through Seattle.

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08-13-2013, 10:15 AM
  #123
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the Mariners (during the last year of Pinella) wouldn't grow a pair and make the team a dynasty..
Even without a pair, I'd settle for them growing a left fielder.

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08-13-2013, 11:12 AM
  #124
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Mitch levy wants people to listen in at 8 am tomorrow. States: if you listen to one segment all year, listen to this one. Could be anything.
What did he say?

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08-13-2013, 03:54 PM
  #125
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the east coast and the west coast cultures are different. People out west travel more since that's what's available. People who say people won't come to Seattle from Vancouver for a midweek game are flat wrong. yes it will be less than weekend but weekends will draw people from all over Washington state and Oregon as well. the stats above about the Blue Jays games being the highest selling midweek gams proves that Canadians will travel midweek. I have friends in Vancouver who call me up at the last minute to see if I want to join then at a Ms game. Similar goes for Seattle hockey fans going to Canucks games when possible. the Seahawks market themselves in Canada and have had Seahawks Canada org for a while. The Seahawks always market 1 game as "Canada Day" at Clink where they do Oh Canada, etc.

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