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1990 All star break players choice poll

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Old
08-01-2013, 03:23 PM
  #26
Epsilon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
This poll was taken in the midst of a Hart winning season for Messier so I don't think that it should surprise anyone.

Messier was much more established at the time than Yzerman (who had only one shortened season and the one massive season of his prime on record when the poll was taken...)

By my recollection, Yzerman was in the discussion after Gretzky and Lemieux for the 3rd best hockey player on the planet at the time. (Along with the Messiers Bourques etc)
It's more of a debunking of the idea carried by some that the NHL was "Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, then everyone else".

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08-01-2013, 03:27 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post


From 90-91 to career end:

Messier: Cupx1, Hartx1, Pearsonx1, 1ASx1,
RS: 958GP, 314g-603a-917pts
PO: 88GP, 33g-62a-95pts

Yzerman: Cupx3, Smythex1, Selkex1, 1ASx1,
RS: 1000GP, 401g-662a-1063pts
PO: 164GP, 54g-90a-144pts

If you want to find the exact date of the AS game and separate out those numbers and add them in, feel free. But I think it's clear that Yzerman had the better career after this poll was taken. You could completely eliminate Yzerman's career before the 90-91 season and he's still a HHOFer. That's a much harder argument with Messier.
Actually, I would have thought Yzerman would have pulled more clearly ahead. I am not saying he didin't establish himself as the better player those years, but the race definitely is close.

Impressive how Steve still has his 1000 games over PPG considering the difference in scoring and his game after 1995-96. That kind of settles the debate I was trying to light up on Selanne vs. Yzerman.

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08-01-2013, 03:29 PM
  #28
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[QUOTE=eva unit zero;69837613]Messier would be voted the Pearson winner what, maybe two months later?

I think Yzerman's finish in "all-around" should back up what I have said about his game rather than follow the implication you are making.


No. Clearly not. The fact that Gretzky and Lemieux are on the 'all around' list demonstrates that the players were voting on who's the best player, all things considered. Yzerman is at his absolute statistical peak at this point, putting him behind Gretzky and Lemieux in votes, both of whom are still statistically better. Kurri, on the other hand, is no longer a statistical monster at this point, and logic would suggest HE is receiving votes based on his all around game. As is Messier, who is miles ahead in votes, and at this point has come nowhere near Yzerman's 155 point season.

From the way the votes look, a guy coming off of a 155 point season WHO IS ALSO KNOWN FOR GREAT 2WAY PLAY, EVA would have garnered more votes than Kurri. Likely he would split the Messier votes.

This list tells me that Steve Yzerman, in 1990, was known, amongst his peers, as that guy who was the next best thing offensively to 66 and 99. And nothing else.

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08-01-2013, 03:29 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
It's more of a debunking of the idea carried by some that the NHL was "Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, then everyone else".
Can't help but notice the debunking of "Yzerman was a one-dimensional player", or did you miss that part?

Also, can anyone find the 1988 or 1989 polls? I'd love to see those...

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08-01-2013, 03:33 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Messier would be voted the Pearson winner what, maybe two months later?

I think Yzerman's finish in "all-around" should back up what I have said about his game rather than follow the implication you are making.
i was implying this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
It's more of a debunking of the idea carried by some that the NHL was "Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, then everyone else".
and this alone.

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08-01-2013, 03:35 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
It's more of a debunking of the idea carried by some that the NHL was "Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, then everyone else".
That was a pretty common opinion at the time from what I recall.

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08-01-2013, 03:41 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
That was a pretty common opinion at the time from what I recall.
Was it really?

I have no recollection of the atmosphere at that time, since I was so young. But the opinions, articles and facts I have seen suggests that at that time Lemieux and Gretzky were in a place themselves. Yzerman, Messier, Bourque etc. were fighting among themselves.

It wasn't the "Big Three".

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08-01-2013, 03:41 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
No. Clearly not. The fact that Gretzky and Lemieux are on the 'all around' list demonstrates that the players were voting on who's the best player, all things considered. Yzerman is at his absolute statistical peak at this point, putting him behind Gretzky and Lemieux in votes, both of whom are still statistically better. Kurri, on the other hand, is no longer a statistical monster at this point, and logic would suggest HE is receiving votes based on his all around game. As is Messier, who is miles ahead in votes, and at this point has come nowhere near Yzerman's 155 point season.

From the way the votes look, a guy coming off of a 155 point season WHO IS ALSO KNOWN FOR GREAT 2WAY PLAY, EVA would have garnered more votes than Kurri. Likely he would split the Messier votes.

This list tells me that Steve Yzerman, in 1990, was known, amongst his peers, as that guy who was the next best thing offensively to 66 and 99. And nothing else.
If they're voting on Yzerman strictly based on his offense, then let's consider a couple facts.

Lemieux and Gretzky were better offensively. Not debatable.

Messier was at his absolute offensive peak statistically, and finished two points ahead of Yzerman. Without having the All-Star splits for that season I can't say who was leading, but it was likely close.

If Yzerman is being voted based purely on his offense... why would he receive ANY votes at all? He tied with Mario Lemieux. Is "Yzerman was voted equal to Lemieux, purely on his offense" a realistic statement?

Fifteen votes are not mentioned. Did Doug Gilmour receive votes? Ron Francis? Who else received 3 or fewer?

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08-01-2013, 03:46 PM
  #34
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Turgeon and Steen ahead of The Flower? C'mon.

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08-01-2013, 03:53 PM
  #35
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An interesting coincidence I just noticed is the overrated players list.

Jimmy Carson is at #2, and Luc Robitaille is at #5. They were linemates who finished 6th and 8th in scoring just two seasons prior.

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08-01-2013, 03:54 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Was it really?

I have no recollection of the atmosphere at that time, since I was so young. But the opinions, articles and facts I have seen suggests that at that time Lemieux and Gretzky were in a place themselves. Yzerman, Messier, Bourque etc. were fighting among themselves.

It wasn't the "Big Three".
Yes. It was.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...6637/index.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Illustrated, March 20, 1989, "No. 3 With A Bullet Motown's Steve Yzerman, the NHL's third-brightest star, could climb even higher on the charts", by Austin Murphy

The least debated subject in the NHL, other than who has the ugliest home uniforms (the Vancouver Canucks, in a walkover), is, Who's No. 3? While fans argue passionately over who is the league's best player, Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemieux, everyone agrees on who comes next: center Steve Yzerman of the Detroit Red Wings.

Yzerman is very modest in the article and all the usual suspects are mentioned - including by Yzerman - as possible number 3s.. but it was very common for people to say they thought he was in fact number 3.

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08-01-2013, 04:10 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Definitely true. Yzerman was one of the players who were right behind Gretzky and Lemieux. As was Messier too. Timing for that poll was perfect for Messier, but it wasn't really unfair to Yzerman either. If Yzerman was considered about as complete player as Jari Kurri at that time is not a big knock on him. But he is clearly behind Messier.

If we are to think about this this way. Which of these two players establishes their legacy more after that poll was taken? I mean, which one of these two will add more value to their careers from that point onwards?

If at that time the difference is clearly in favor of Messier, might it turn around how soon? I know it will, but at which point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Messier would be voted the Pearson winner what, maybe two months later?

I think Yzerman's finish in "all-around" should back up what I have said about his game rather than follow the implication you are making.

Can't help but notice the debunking of "Yzerman was a one-dimensional player", or did you miss that part?

Also, can anyone find the 1988 or 1989 polls? I'd love to see those...


He wasn't. That poll shows that 4 players out of 123 voted that he was great all around. Then again, 19 players voted that Gretzky was the best all around player, so their idea of all around must vary.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 08-01-2013 at 04:47 PM.
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08-01-2013, 04:10 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yes. It was.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...6637/index.htm




Yzerman is very modest in the article and all the usual suspects are mentioned - including by Yzerman - as possible number 3s.. but it was very common for people to say they thought he was in fact number 3.
Ok, thanks.

Was Yzerman considered "alone" in his level? Cause we all can agree that he wasn't, or perceived at that time to be equal to Wayne and Mario. He was like this middle man?

I somehow don't remember this. As I don't try to dismiss your source, I am doubting it a bit. Maybe the easy tone on the part right before you bolded the quote makes that article kind of a hyperbole?

I just somehow can't understand why Yzerman would be "alone" in a tier between #99/#66 and the rest.

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08-01-2013, 04:43 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yes. It was.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...6637/index.htm




Yzerman is very modest in the article and all the usual suspects are mentioned - including by Yzerman - as possible number 3s.. but it was very common for people to say they thought he was in fact number 3.
Well, you say that time was a perfect time for Messier to win that poll due to being in his best season. The same applies to Yzerman and that article towards the end of his best season ever.

This poll was midway through Messier's best season, but Yzerman had just come off his best season and was doing very well in the offensive category this season so it was not like he was forgotten.

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08-01-2013, 04:59 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
From 90-91 to career end:

Messier: Cupx1, Hartx1, Pearsonx1, 1ASx1,
RS: 958GP, 314g-603a-917pts
PO: 88GP, 33g-62a-95pts

Yzerman: Cupx3, Smythex1, Selkex1, 1ASx1,
RS: 1000GP, 401g-662a-1063pts
PO: 164GP, 54g-90a-144pts

If you want to find the exact date of the AS game and separate out those numbers and add them in, feel free. But I think it's clear that Yzerman had the better career after this poll was taken. You could completely eliminate Yzerman's career before the 90-91 season and he's still a HHOFer. That's a much harder argument with Messier.
Amazing! Yzerman had a few more good years than Messier in a very specific timeframe that somehow cuts out the fact that he is 30 years old at the start of this timeframe, and Yzerman is 25 and more likely to have more prime years!

Eureka!

Good lord. Will you ever end the ridiculous grocery store approach to statistics? Even your precious Scotty Bowman "Greatest coach of all time" thinks Messier is a better player. And Bowman's list is Cuckoo

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08-02-2013, 09:32 AM
  #41
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Well, you say that time was a perfect time for Messier to win that poll due to being in his best season. The same applies to Yzerman and that article towards the end of his best season ever.
True.

I don't really have a horse in this race but it appears to me people are downplaying Yzerman's reputation around that time so I quickly found some contemporary evidence of it.


Quote:
This poll was midway through Messier's best season, but Yzerman had just come off his best season and was doing very well in the offensive category this season so it was not like he was forgotten.
That doesn't change the fact that the poll obviously reflects the time it was conducted.

Those same players awarded Yzerman the LBP the previous season against prime seasons by Lemieux and Gretzky.

Similarly, Messier's 89-90 where the poll was conducted is a season for the ages and that is reflected in the poll at that time.

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08-02-2013, 12:55 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
True.

I don't really have a horse in this race but it appears to me people are downplaying Yzerman's reputation around that time so I quickly found some contemporary evidence of it.




That doesn't change the fact that the poll obviously reflects the time it was conducted.

Those same players awarded Yzerman the LBP the previous season against prime seasons by Lemieux and Gretzky.

Similarly, Messier's 89-90 where the poll was conducted is a season for the ages and that is reflected in the poll at that time.
well i don't think anyone has ever denied that between '89 and '94 (i.e., between when trottier, stastny, savard, and hawerchuk all started declining and when the fedorov/lindros/jagr generation starts to be competitive for the hart) yzerman was one of the players in the conversation for best player in the league after gretzky and mario.

i think the point of this discussion is that, depending on who is having a career year, the designation of third best could alternately go to yzerman, messier, bourque, and briefly brett hull. in hindsight, one wants to put roy there too, but i don't remember there ever being a major push for roy being top three at the time, except maybe immediately following the '93 playoffs.

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08-05-2013, 01:23 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
True.

I don't really have a horse in this race but it appears to me people are downplaying Yzerman's reputation around that time so I quickly found some contemporary evidence of it.


That doesn't change the fact that the poll obviously reflects the time it was conducted.

Those same players awarded Yzerman the LBP the previous season against prime seasons by Lemieux and Gretzky.

Similarly, Messier's 89-90 where the poll was conducted is a season for the ages and that is reflected in the poll at that time.
As early as 1987, Messier was being lumped in with Gretzky and Lemieux:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_1MjEJwVfE

(John Muckler at the 1:15 mark)

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08-05-2013, 01:32 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
As early as 1987, Messier was being lumped in with Gretzky and Lemieux:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_1MjEJwVfE

(John Muckler at the 1:15 mark)
While I'm sure we can find quotes placing Messier as the #3 player as early as 1987 and 1988 (third in points-per game in 1987 in addition to having a rather strong playoff and good Canada Cup, leading scorer in the 1988 playoffs going into the Finals, and a hot start against Gretzky in the 1989 playoffs), Muckler has a horse in this race.

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08-05-2013, 01:35 PM
  #45
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While I'm sure we can find quotes placing Messier as the #3 player as early as 1987 and 1988 (third in points-per game in 1987 in addition to having a rather strong playoff and good Canada Cup, leading scorer in the 1988 playoffs going into the Finals, and a hot start against Gretzky in the 1989 playoffs), Muckler has a horse in this race.
And Keenan named Messier captain in the 1991 Canada Cup because he, 'had a horse in the race', too. And left Yzerman off because he hates Yzerman.

At some point, the evidence is the evidence.

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08-05-2013, 01:43 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
And Keenan named Messier captain in the 1991 Canada Cup because he, 'had a horse in the race', too. And left Yzerman off because he hates Yzerman.

At some point, the evidence is the evidence.
If you're alluding to me not looking at everything in the best possible light for Mark Messier all the time always, I can assure I do.

But come on, John Muckler? He had been coaching Messier since 1982.

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08-05-2013, 02:05 PM
  #47
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If you're alluding to me not looking at everything in the best possible light for Mark Messier all the time always, I can assure I do.

But come on, John Muckler? He had been coaching Messier since 1982.
Not you. But there are people here who have a million excuses for what was the obvious truth; Messier was the third-best center of his era.

And Muckler was saying it in the context of a Canada Cup. I don't think he was too worried about his club team at the time. Remember Pat Quinn sitting Joseph in 2002?

But fine. Here's Ray Bourque on Messier at the 1987 Canada Cup:

"I told him this [while they were Canada Cup teammates], if I'd been a General Manager, and had a new franchise, over anybody he'd probably be the guy I'd pick to start a new franchise with"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+messier&hl=en

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08-05-2013, 02:36 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
And Keenan named Messier captain in the 1991 Canada Cup because he, 'had a horse in the race', too. And left Yzerman off because he hates Yzerman.

At some point, the evidence is the evidence.
Not sure what horse Keenan had in regards to Messier at that point considering he was still coaching the Hawks at the time and wouldn't be the Rangers head coach until 93/94.

Whether he hated Yzerman or not is up for debate but it sure seemed that way at the time and it's what I personally believe but that's just me..
The spin used at the time was that Canada was so strong that they had no choice but to leave Yzerman off but there was more to it. There was a lot of shock when Stevie was cut, especially amongst the media, many of whom, came away from their mini camp saying that Stevie looked like one of the best players on the ice.


As far as who was the 3rd best OVERALL player at the time, I would have to go with Messier. Yzerman was the 3rd best offensive player at the time though IMO.

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08-05-2013, 07:31 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
And Keenan named Messier captain in the 1991 Canada Cup because he, 'had a horse in the race', too. And left Yzerman off because he hates Yzerman.

At some point, the evidence is the evidence.
king of beside the point, but another factual inaccuracy: messier wasn't the '91 captain, gretzky was.




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08-05-2013, 11:21 PM
  #50
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Pierre Page getting any votes as the best coach of the league is what puzzle me the most with this list.

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