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08-14-2013, 01:23 AM
  #201
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Sarcasm? I think Whaley's done a fine job -- can't patch all the holes at once.
Not entirely. Byrd...he could have tried a lot harder. Brad Smith should be gonezo. Cool versatile, but guess what...depth now at all things he could do, didn't have that last year.

Never gave LeVitre an offer that I can recall. Not that I advocate Titans contract but they didn't offer him one before hand

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08-14-2013, 02:01 AM
  #202
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I highly doubt it. I think you're seriously undervaluing NFL draft picks here
How am I undervaluing picks??? Are you thinking Buffalo could get more for him?

He has done nothing to get something higher than where he was drafted. If you go by history if a team was to move a player one year removed from the draft they usually get back a pick in a lower round than where the player was taken.

My feeling a team that would probably need him more would be a playoff bound team who would be more willing to part with a late 3rd round pick.

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08-14-2013, 02:42 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
I meant PS as worst case scenario. I definitely agree he could make the 53, but basically in some capacity the Bills will keep him around. Whether they choose to keep a 3rd QB is the major question, and it depends largely on Tuel's play but also on health (e.g. if Kolb is hurt, you better believe Tuel is staying) as well as at other positions if they need more depth. 3rd QB is simply not as important a spot as reserve lineman for instance, who you almost expect will see playing time, which works against Tuel. You don't go into a season thinking your 3rd QB will play much if at all.

Tuel was also a guy the Bills brought in for a pre-draft visit IIRC. They clearly saw something in him even before the draft.

Tuel was brought in pre-draft. He was not invited to the combine. There was still a question of if he would even come out this year because he could have gotten a red shirt 5th season due to an injury plagued 2011 season where he played parts of 2 games.

Washington state had a pro day which had players from pullman and other area colleges. Kauffman out of Eastern Washington (in spokane) went down to Pullman for the pro day workout.

http://washingtonstate.scout.com/2/1272544.html


Sure health plays a role in all roster decisions. Its pretty standard for a team to keep 3 QBs. Especially in the Bills case where 2 of them are young and the other is older.

Lets say EJ gets the starting job and does well (could be game 1 or game 10)....They see how tuel has been so far. They likely keep Kolb this season...then release him in the offseason and use Tuel as the backup. That is a big cost savings for now on the roster with inexpensive QBs.

you also have to take into account Kolb's injury history which is a real risk. Just on that alone it would be crazy not to have 3 QBs on the roster.

Sure you can try to get him on the PS but he would have to clear waivers first which will not happen if he has another strong preseason game.

In terms of roster spots....this is what I forecast....

OFFENSE26) 3 QB 3 RB 6 WR 3 TE 1 WR/TE 1 FB(*) 9 OL

DEFENSE24) 4 DE, 3 DT, 7 LB, 10 DB

SPECIAL TEAMS: (3) 1K, 1P, 1 long snapper

TOTAL: 53

PS: FB, WR, OL, TE DB, 2 LB, DE,

the FB is the wild card position...they may not have a FB on the 53 man roster and instead sign one to the PS. Their offense doesnt really call for much of a FB thus he would be used mostly on special teams. If no FB they then keep another another DT to make it 4.

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08-14-2013, 03:37 AM
  #204
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How am I undervaluing picks??? Are you thinking Buffalo could get more for him?

He has done nothing to get something higher than where he was drafted. If you go by history if a team was to move a player one year removed from the draft they usually get back a pick in a lower round than where the player was taken.

My feeling a team that would probably need him more would be a playoff bound team who would be more willing to part with a late 3rd round pick.
Did you even read what I posted? You speculated that Graham might be able to get a 3rd. I said that isn't going to happen and that you're undervaluing picks. That's the *exact opposite* of what you suggested I'm saying. There's absolutely no way that Graham could return a 3rd round pick now. A 3rd is worth a lot more than he is.

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08-14-2013, 04:07 AM
  #205
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Almost completely OT but how do you see the Bills chances to make the playoffs? Local sports betting firm offers the bet back times 7 if they make the playoffs.

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08-14-2013, 05:05 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by BK Triple Threat View Post
Not entirely. Byrd...he could have tried a lot harder. Brad Smith should be gonezo. Cool versatile, but guess what...depth now at all things he could do, didn't have that last year.

Never gave LeVitre an offer that I can recall. Not that I advocate Titans contract but they didn't offer him one before hand
Byrd- he could gave tried harder? What? I don't even know where to start on that one.

Smith - he's looking at a roster that after Stevie has 15 games of NFL experience and you are faulting him for getting a veteran to renegotiate his contract? Not to mention that if all the kids look good you can just cut him before the season starts

Levitre - if I had to guess "Andy how much you lookin for? - bout 6.5-7 mil a year - we were thinking 5 max - that's not going to work - ok good luck in free agency" they don't value the position enough to pay big dollars so they probably didn't value it high enough to devote resources that (I hope) were being used scouting QBs

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08-14-2013, 09:24 AM
  #207
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Almost completely OT but how do you see the Bills chances to make the playoffs? Local sports betting firm offers the bet back times 7 if they make the playoffs.
I think if the Bills get solid QB play, and Pettine makes the defense respectable, they could potentially be in the mix for a wild card.

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08-14-2013, 10:47 AM
  #208
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Tuel was brought in pre-draft. He was not invited to the combine. There was still a question of if he would even come out this year because he could have gotten a red shirt 5th season due to an injury plagued 2011 season where he played parts of 2 games.

Washington state had a pro day which had players from pullman and other area colleges. Kauffman out of Eastern Washington (in spokane) went down to Pullman for the pro day workout.

http://washingtonstate.scout.com/2/1272544.html


Sure health plays a role in all roster decisions. Its pretty standard for a team to keep 3 QBs. Especially in the Bills case where 2 of them are young and the other is older.

Lets say EJ gets the starting job and does well (could be game 1 or game 10)....They see how tuel has been so far. They likely keep Kolb this season...then release him in the offseason and use Tuel as the backup. That is a big cost savings for now on the roster with inexpensive QBs.

you also have to take into account Kolb's injury history which is a real risk. Just on that alone it would be crazy not to have 3 QBs on the roster.

Sure you can try to get him on the PS but he would have to clear waivers first which will not happen if he has another strong preseason game.

In terms of roster spots....this is what I forecast....

OFFENSE26) 3 QB 3 RB 6 WR 3 TE 1 WR/TE 1 FB(*) 9 OL

DEFENSE24) 4 DE, 3 DT, 7 LB, 10 DB

SPECIAL TEAMS: (3) 1K, 1P, 1 long snapper

TOTAL: 53

PS: FB, WR, OL, TE DB, 2 LB, DE,

the FB is the wild card position...they may not have a FB on the 53 man roster and instead sign one to the PS. Their offense doesnt really call for much of a FB thus he would be used mostly on special teams. If no FB they then keep another another DT to make it 4.
y offense n defense heff 2 b frowny

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08-14-2013, 01:34 PM
  #209
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Caussin released. Didn't see that coming so soon. Guess Dickerson's looking good at TE, probably to play the FB spot whenever it's needed too.

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08-14-2013, 01:53 PM
  #210
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Caussin released. Didn't see that coming so soon. Guess Dickerson's looking good at TE, probably to play the FB spot whenever it's needed too.
Dickerson's versatility I think was a key reason he was drafted last year.

We're looking at:

Chandler
Smith
Dickerson
Gragg

Assuming they keep 4 TEs (which seems plausible given Dickerson's versatility and Chandler's health status). Gragg is a possible practice squad guy if they decide to stick with 3. If Dickerson can play the FB spot when needed, then that would be bad news for Summers unless he shows special teams prowess.

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08-14-2013, 02:10 PM
  #211
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Gragg could go PS...Caussian released I'm a little surprised but I think they did this now so he stilll has a shot to make a different club.

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08-14-2013, 03:24 PM
  #212
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Dickerson and Gragg are similar dimensions. Anyone know if Gragg is more of a passing threat? Dickerson always seemed better suited to blocking, especially out of the backfield.


You know I'm bored with the preseason already when I'm asking about 3rd and 4th string TEs. Give me some real football already

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08-14-2013, 04:49 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Imlach a cup View Post
Byrd- he could gave tried harder? What? I don't even know where to start on that one.

Smith - he's looking at a roster that after Stevie has 15 games of NFL experience and you are faulting him for getting a veteran to renegotiate his contract? Not to mention that if all the kids look good you can just cut him before the season starts

Levitre - if I had to guess "Andy how much you lookin for? - bout 6.5-7 mil a year - we were thinking 5 max - that's not going to work - ok good luck in free agency" they don't value the position enough to pay big dollars so they probably didn't value it high enough to devote resources that (I hope) were being used scouting QBs
Guess we can agree to disagree.

Byrd and the Bills were $2 million apart a year. Maybe negotiating inbetween would have worked out?

Smith is a bum.. The only reason he stuck was because they had no backup QB. He could play WR on a team that after Steve-o had nothing.

LeVitre they could have atleast sent a contract his way before FA. They never even offered him one. Don't know what woulda happened if you don't try!

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08-14-2013, 05:54 PM
  #214
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How is it apples and oranges ???

I live in the Seattle area.

Seattle had TJ, signed Flynn, then drafted wilson. Many felt flynn would be the starter.

Wilson against the 2nd/3rd stringers impressed. Flynn got hurt in preseason....thus needing to sit out some. Flynn did not play poorly at all.

After a few preseason games and being impressed with how wilson was playing there became a big debate of who should start.

The coach decided to go with Wilson on his gut.
Well because I don't care who "wins" the QB battle. Flynn proved nothing and Yes the offense was terrible without Wilson in (not like it is now with Buffalo).

But the reason why it is Apples and Oranges is because Wilson was a more developed QB coming out of college than Manuel (his size was the issue). Manuel goes full Blaine Gabbert against backups and everyone is impressed? And what I ask is how is a TD against backups help Manuel's development? I personally don't think it matters but you seem to disagree.

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08-14-2013, 06:02 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by BK Triple Threat View Post
Guess we can agree to disagree.

Byrd and the Bills were $2 million apart a year. Maybe negotiating inbetween would have worked out?

Smith is a bum.. The only reason he stuck was because they had no backup QB. He could play WR on a team that after Steve-o had nothing.

LeVitre they could have atleast sent a contract his way before FA. They never even offered him one. Don't know what woulda happened if you don't try!
1. I'm sure you know Byrd's agent reputation about dealing with Bills players. He is clearly either trying to get Byrd out of Buffalo or maximize that deal. There really doesn't seem to any middle ground and Byrd will sit out until he loses money.

2. Smith provides a veteran presence and can play multiple positions.... I'd still like to see him get cut.

3. Levitre told Buffalo he was looking for 7+, if the Bills didn't feel he was worth that then why make an insulting offer? Everyone knew a team was going to pay him that and Byrd + Wood are more important.

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08-14-2013, 06:52 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
Dickerson's versatility I think was a key reason he was drafted last year.

We're looking at:

Chandler
Smith
Dickerson
Gragg

Assuming they keep 4 TEs (which seems plausible given Dickerson's versatility and Chandler's health status). Gragg is a possible practice squad guy if they decide to stick with 3. If Dickerson can play the FB spot when needed, then that would be bad news for Summers unless he shows special teams prowess.
Just FYI, Dickerson was signed, not drafted. He'd already kicked around a bit and had been unable to find success.

I could see only keeping one of Dickerson/Gragg, with it likely being Dickerson and Gragg on the PS. I could see them keeping both as well. Keeping Smith seems a given as they want to be a running team and he's a beast of a blocker. None of these other guys come close as blockers, especially Dickerson and Gragg being h-back-sized players.

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08-14-2013, 07:38 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
1. I'm sure you know Byrd's agent reputation about dealing with Bills players. He is clearly either trying to get Byrd out of Buffalo or maximize that deal. There really doesn't seem to any middle ground and Byrd will sit out until he loses money.

2. Smith provides a veteran presence and can play multiple positions.... I'd still like to see him get cut.

3. Levitre told Buffalo he was looking for 7+, if the Bills didn't feel he was worth that then why make an insulting offer? Everyone knew a team was going to pay him that and Byrd + Wood are more important.
His agent's relationship w/ Buffalo is meaningless, he has the same reputation across the league. He plays hardball and will employ all means to get his player the deal he's asking for.


Last edited by Rob Paxon: 08-14-2013 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Said 'employee' instead of 'employ' for some reason
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08-14-2013, 08:25 PM
  #218
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Korn on the Kolb will start on Friday against the Vikes. Marrone mentioned that he had originally intended to have Kolb start against the Colts and Manuel against the Vikes, but Kolb's injury ended up flip flopping them.

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08-14-2013, 08:29 PM
  #219
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Korn on the Kolb will start on Friday against the Vikes.
As much as I'd like to see EJ, it's the right thing to do. EJ has to clearly win the job.

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08-14-2013, 08:34 PM
  #220
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Thank god we dodged this bullet.....

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/stor...rutal-practice

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08-14-2013, 08:37 PM
  #221
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As much as I'd like to see EJ, it's the right thing to do. EJ has to clearly win the job.
Yes.

Marrone gives the message to the team that it will be a fair and real competition. But it is also good for EJ. They were conservative in the first game--lots of checkdowns and short passes. Which is good for a kid in his first NFL action. Now, open it up and let him go deep--it'll be against backups, but this gives a gradual progression to when he's gonna have to run the whole show against starters. The worst thing to do is just throw him to the wolves--and I think the coaches know that. Get him comfortable at this level, and then let him run with it.

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08-14-2013, 10:53 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
Yes.

Marrone gives the message to the team that it will be a fair and real competition. But it is also good for EJ. They were conservative in the first game--lots of checkdowns and short passes. Which is good for a kid in his first NFL action. Now, open it up and let him go deep--it'll be against backups, but this gives a gradual progression to when he's gonna have to run the whole show against starters. The worst thing to do is just throw him to the wolves--and I think the coaches know that. Get him comfortable at this level, and then let him run with it.
I support the idea that EJ needs to earn it, but at the same time Kolb is coming in with hardly any training camp under his belt. This isn't necessarily a fair shot for Kolb, was more expecting him to start next week and EJ this week. That said, Kolb's a pro and he still has a shot to make the most out of this opportunity.

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08-15-2013, 12:44 AM
  #223
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Yeah, I haven't been excited about a Bills team in ages. Really since Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas and Andre Reed. In fact after those great years I moved away from the NFL to the NCAA EJ and the new boys are bring me back. I watched the Colts game and I saw a lot to be excited about. Still raw, but with a lot of promise!

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08-15-2013, 03:08 AM
  #224
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Well because I don't care who "wins" the QB battle. Flynn proved nothing and Yes the offense was terrible without Wilson in (not like it is now with Buffalo).

But the reason why it is Apples and Oranges is because Wilson was a more developed QB coming out of college than Manuel (his size was the issue). Manuel goes full Blaine Gabbert against backups and everyone is impressed? And what I ask is how is a TD against backups help Manuel's development? I personally don't think it matters but you seem to disagree.
With Wilson....I know his size was the draw back on him...but in my opinion it wasnt that big of an issue. I dont believe an inch or 2 at QB really matters. The bigger issue in how he throws rather than height. a QB could have height but if he throws side arm all the time the height advantage is negated.

If 4 years of college football means they are more prepared---then I can show you 4 year starter QBs who failed taking that step to pros or took alot longer than a rookie year to do it.

You may argue he may have been more pro ready because he came from a college with a more pro football offensive philosophy. Even then Seattle uses a different style of offense than what NC State used.

Wilson More developed ???---not really--not based on raw skills......you are making it sound EJ is some major project of a player who barely started QB or played at a smaller Division I-AA school. Alot of analyst down graded the QB class this year because they didnt compare much with the prior years base on hype and expectations with Luck alone.

Florida State has developed quite a bit of NFL talent over the years--including QBs. Its not like their offense was a spread offense or a college not known as a strong football school like Missouri.

its not like EJ came out of a Div I-AA school. EJ came out of a much better football program school in florida State than NC State. EJ started 2 full seasons (JR and SR) and a few games in 2 other seasons when Ponder was injured.

Florida State was a more balanced attack thus the lower yardage numbers and overall passing numbers to Wilson.

EJ was pretty well developed for most college QBs since most college QBs dont get 2 years to start.

The same arguments could be made about Flynn was playing against the 1st team defense doing vanilla play calling. That happened last weekend when Seattle played San Diego. Early in the game Seattle had low offensive numbers.

Flynn didnt play like crap...he got hurt and was out for some time. Wilson was playing against 3rd stringers thus put up good numbers.

also remember for EJ at the start of the game there was going to be nerves in the QB and they were going to do conservative play calling to help him build his confidence and get comfortable.

Im not saying EJ has won the starting job. What he did ---he can build upon significantly and just gain confidence.

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08-15-2013, 12:06 PM
  #225
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With Wilson....I know his size was the draw back on him...but in my opinion it wasnt that big of an issue. I dont believe an inch or 2 at QB really matters. The bigger issue in how he throws rather than height. a QB could have height but if he throws side arm all the time the height advantage is negated.

If 4 years of college football means they are more prepared---then I can show you 4 year starter QBs who failed taking that step to pros or took alot longer than a rookie year to do it.

You may argue he may have been more pro ready because he came from a college with a more pro football offensive philosophy. Even then Seattle uses a different style of offense than what NC State used.

Wilson More developed ???---not really--not based on raw skills......you are making it sound EJ is some major project of a player who barely started QB or played at a smaller Division I-AA school. Alot of analyst down graded the QB class this year because they didnt compare much with the prior years base on hype and expectations with Luck alone.

Florida State has developed quite a bit of NFL talent over the years--including QBs. Its not like their offense was a spread offense or a college not known as a strong football school like Missouri.

its not like EJ came out of a Div I-AA school. EJ came out of a much better football program school in florida State than NC State. EJ started 2 full seasons (JR and SR) and a few games in 2 other seasons when Ponder was injured.

Florida State was a more balanced attack thus the lower yardage numbers and overall passing numbers to Wilson.

EJ was pretty well developed for most college QBs since most college QBs dont get 2 years to start.

The same arguments could be made about Flynn was playing against the 1st team defense doing vanilla play calling. That happened last weekend when Seattle played San Diego. Early in the game Seattle had low offensive numbers.

Flynn didnt play like crap...he got hurt and was out for some time. Wilson was playing against 3rd stringers thus put up good numbers.

also remember for EJ at the start of the game there was going to be nerves in the QB and they were going to do conservative play calling to help him build his confidence and get comfortable.

Im not saying EJ has won the starting job. What he did ---he can build upon significantly and just gain confidence.
Wilson was more developed than Manuel coming out of college, and personally I do not think it is all that close of a comparison. He was a 4 year starter out of two good programs (3 at NC State, and 1 at Wisconsin. Manuel was a good, but far from great college quarterback. Also, while FSU does have a lot more football history than NC State, two things bear remembering. First, State has a very good recent history with developing quarterbacks (Rivers, Wilson, and Glennon), especially compared to FSU. Also, in the NC State/FSU game last year, it was Glennon who led the late 4th quarter drive to win against FSU, and not vice versa. In fact, I don't think Manuel scored in the second half of that game against an average NC State defense.

Manuel actually has a lot of room to improve and develop. Personally, I find that a good thing because I like what I saw last Sunday (for the most part).

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