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The Aftermath of 2012' Firesale

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Old
08-02-2013, 07:20 PM
  #26
Watsatheo
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Let's see what Feaster gets in return for Cammalleri, how Bourque plays (21 points in 65 games thus far) and Ramo's play as starter for the Flames. Fucale might end up being the only asset from that trade. Trading Gill for a 2nd isn't exactly a feat - JFJ even did it if I recall correctly and he's infamous for being a bad trading GM. Same for Kostitsyn for a 2nd...this is the year Gaustad fetched a 1st from the same team. Looks better in hindsight since Kostitsyn seemed to fall out of NHL favour after than curfew 'scandal'.


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08-02-2013, 07:35 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Except that, if we won the Cup back in 2012 Collberg would have been our first-rounder...
Not sure why we are discussing a hypothecial situation where the Habs win the cup in 2012.

All i'm saying is that this "firesale" provided an added bonus of drafting earlier in each round, thus enabling us to draft the players that we did, whom may not have been available to us had we not traded those players away

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08-03-2013, 04:09 PM
  #28
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I really liked what Bourque was bringing last year. He was working much harder and I think he would have had a great season if not for the injury.

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08-03-2013, 04:11 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Metalock View Post
I really liked what Bourque was bringing last year. He was working much harder and I think he would have had a great season if not for the injury.
Still a poor trade.

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Old
08-03-2013, 04:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Still a poor trade.
No matter how it works out it was a stupid trade. No way we should've taken back Bourque without getting a 1st out of it.

That being said, Fucale looks like a great pick.

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Old
08-03-2013, 04:45 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
No matter how it works out it was a stupid trade. No way we should've taken back Bourque without getting a 1st out of it.

That being said, Fucale looks like a great pick.
So if Holland ends up surprising then it's still a stupid move? We saved near 3 million in cap space.

As long as Bourque keeps it up then this was a fantastic trade.

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08-03-2013, 04:54 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by dackelljuneaubulis02 View Post
So if Holland ends up surprising then it's still a stupid move? We saved near 3 million in cap space.

As long as Bourque keeps it up then this was a fantastic trade.
There's your key word: 'surprise.' As for cap space, we didn't need it. Also we're stuck with Bourque for an extra year.

As for this trade being stupid... If we go out and trade PK Subban for a 5th round pick tomorrow is it a stupid move?

If Subban gets hit by a bus the next day and that 5th rounder turns into Nik Lidstrom was it still a stupid move? Yes. Its a stupid trade no matter what. Even if that trade works out it's a dumb move based on what you know at the time. This was a window dressing move where our GM felt embarrassed and made a knee jerk trade for another team's problem player. He did it to get rid of Cammy as quickly as he could and didn't treat him as the quality trading asset that he was. Dumb move.

Fucale looks like a great prospect but there's no way that our idiotic GM knew that he'd be available at the time the deal was made. 2nd rounder instead of a first. That's why it's dumb.

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Old
08-03-2013, 05:24 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
There's your key word: 'surprise.' As for cap space, we didn't need it. Also we're stuck with Bourque for an extra year.

As for this trade being stupid... If we go out and trade PK Subban for a 5th round pick tomorrow is it a stupid move?

If Subban gets hit by a bus the next day and that 5th rounder turns into Nik Lidstrom was it still a stupid move? Yes. Its a stupid trade no matter what. Even if that trade works out it's a dumb move based on what you know at the time. This was a window dressing move where our GM felt embarrassed and made a knee jerk trade for another team's problem player. He did it to get rid of Cammy as quickly as he could and didn't treat him as the quality trading asset that he was. Dumb move.

Fucale looks like a great prospect but there's no way that our idiotic GM knew that he'd be available at the time the deal was made. 2nd rounder instead of a first. That's why it's dumb.
Didn't need cap space?!?

1)When do you not need cap space?

2)and we did need the cap space. We still had Gomez on the books
and no compliance buyouts on the horizon (there might have been whispers at the time)

Cammy was as ineffective for us as Bourque was. Bourque had better numbers than Cammy did in the years preceding. He's more of what we need.

When Cammy's not scoring he's utterly useless. Bourque has WAY more dimensions than Cammy.

Just because we didn't get a first doesn't make it a stupid trade. More like if PG got a first then it would've been an absolutely amazing trade. The Kaberle trade was stupid.

Plus, I'm sure PG had an inkling it would have been a high 2nd rounder in a deep draft. This was Calgary he was dealing with. Ramo was quite an asset but he wasn't going to play 20 games under Price so PG was a little handcuffed there.

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08-03-2013, 05:28 PM
  #34
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Didn't we trade a conditional 5th to Nashville, then get it back in the Akost deal which turned out to be Hudon ?

Or was that the 5th we dealt for 44DD ?

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08-03-2013, 06:24 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
Except that, if we won the Cup back in 2012 Collberg would have been our first-rounder...
Bingo.

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08-03-2013, 06:43 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Big Lurk View Post
Well now that the draft is over, and there won't be no hockey related news for awhile as Big Berg is more and more lookin like he's done for the summer, I thought it would be fun to discuss this!

Basically :

Andrei Kostitsyn was traded for Jacob de la Rose (34th Pick 2013)

Mike Cammalleri + Karri Ramo and Ryan Culkin (5th Round Pick 2012)
for
Rene Bourque, Patrick Holland and Zach Fucale (36th Pick 2013)

Hal Gill for Robert Slaney, Blake Geoffrion and Dalton Thrower (2nd round pick 2012)

I know it's still early and the prospects have not even set foot in the AHL yet, but what do you think of those trades now?

BTW Lurking the boards since 2010 (11?), happy to join in the discussions, I witnessed the darkest day in Habs History
Kost trade = Meh... not a terrible return, but considering Gaustad landed a 1st at the same deadline, it's annoying that we couldn't get a bit more for Kost

Cammy trade = poor... despite the "addition by subtraction" that moving Cammy represented, it was a bad move then & barring Fucale turning into the next franchise goalie and/or garnering huge trade value, it's unlikely to change.

Gill = solid. Geoffrion retirement diminishes the return for us, but it was a good chunk of assets to get back for a grossly over-rated player who quickly was relegated to borderline roster player.

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Old
08-03-2013, 08:55 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Kost trade = Meh... not a terrible return, but considering Gaustad landed a 1st at the same deadline, it's annoying that we couldn't get a bit more for Kost

Cammy trade = poor... despite the "addition by subtraction" that moving Cammy represented, it was a bad move then & barring Fucale turning into the next franchise goalie and/or garnering huge trade value, it's unlikely to change.

Gill = solid. Geoffrion retirement diminishes the return for us, but it was a good chunk of assets to get back for a grossly over-rated player who quickly was relegated to borderline roster player.
Not sure why ppl keep bring that Gaustad up, completely different players, a comparable to the Akost trade is Vermette, who had similar stats to Akost up until they were traded, and play similar roles, atleast more comparable than to Guastad, and Vermette was traded for a 2nd and 5th aswell and some AHL goalie.

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08-03-2013, 09:00 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Let's see what Feaster gets in return for Cammalleri, how Bourque plays (21 points in 65 games thus far) and Ramo's play as starter for the Flames. Fucale might end up being the only asset from that trade. Trading Gill for a 2nd isn't exactly a feat - JFJ even did it if I recall correctly and he's infamous for being a bad trading GM. Same for Kostitsyn for a 2nd...this is the year Gaustad fetched a 1st from the same team. Looks better in hindsight since Kostitsyn seemed to fall out of NHL favour after than curfew 'scandal'.
Can't really look at like that since Cammy had 2+ years and 14M+ real dollars and 12M+ cap hit on his contract at the time of the trade , and even now Cammy contract might not be worth much, but if the Flames where to keep him and trade him at next year trade line, his value would be high, because to the team acquiring him his contract would be expiring.

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08-03-2013, 09:08 PM
  #39
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We won every trade. Bring back Gauthier.

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08-03-2013, 09:18 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Dagistitsyn View Post
We definitely could have. We're talking about Feaster.
no way we get a first , we were lucky to get what we could

Feaster is retarded but not stupid drunk

it was my headache for yours
and since Cammy is better they gave us a second which was like a first

this was the only sensible trade without getting back a truly stupid contract

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08-03-2013, 09:21 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
Let's see what Feaster gets in return for Cammalleri, how Bourque plays (21 points in 65 games thus far) and Ramo's play as starter for the Flames. Fucale might end up being the only asset from that trade. Trading Gill for a 2nd isn't exactly a feat - JFJ even did it if I recall correctly and he's infamous for being a bad trading GM. Same for Kostitsyn for a 2nd...this is the year Gaustad fetched a 1st from the same team. Looks better in hindsight since Kostitsyn seemed to fall out of NHL favour after than curfew 'scandal'.
now what do we do for an encore in 2013

Markov, Gio , Diaz, etc..... tick tock tick tock

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08-03-2013, 11:17 PM
  #42
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Didn't need cap space?!?

1)When do you not need cap space?
When you are on your way to 15th in the East, you don't need cap space. Actually, it's a good time to take on bad deals (like Bourque's) AS LONG AS YOU GET 1st ROUNDERS OUT OF IT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dackelljuneaubulis02 View Post
2)and we did need the cap space. We still had Gomez on the books
and no compliance buyouts on the horizon (there might have been whispers at the time)

Cammy was as ineffective for us as Bourque was. Bourque had better numbers than Cammy did in the years preceding. He's more of what we need.

When Cammy's not scoring he's utterly useless. Bourque has WAY more dimensions than Cammy.

Just because we didn't get a first doesn't make it a stupid trade. More like if PG got a first then it would've been an absolutely amazing trade. The Kaberle trade was stupid.

Plus, I'm sure PG had an inkling it would have been a high 2nd rounder in a deep draft. This was Calgary he was dealing with. Ramo was quite an asset but he wasn't going to play 20 games under Price so PG was a little handcuffed there.
I'm not going to argue with you that water is wet, it is. Gomez was bought out... we knew we'd buy him out. We knew there would be contract amnesties as the collective bargaining was coming up...

There's no reason to argue on this.

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Old
08-03-2013, 11:18 PM
  #43
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Still a poor trade.
Absolutely. But it could have been a lot worse.

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08-03-2013, 11:21 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
no way we get a first , we were lucky to get what we could

Feaster is retarded but not stupid drunk

it was my headache for yours
and since Cammy is better they gave us a second which was like a first

this was the only sensible trade without getting back a truly stupid contract
We absolutely should've gotten a first out of this. We took back a player they were praying to get rid of. They were still trying to make the playoffs and were desperate to do so. Their owner is a total idiot and Cammy was pretty much the best thing out there. The analysts were saying Cammy would bring back a first BEFORE this deal went down.

Yes, if we take back Bourque (a guy with a longer deal) and help them with a last ditch effort to make the playoffs, we absolutely should've demanded a first. But Skeletor didn't care about this. Skeletor had been embarrassed and wanted Cammy out right away no matter what, so he did it right away.

This is old news guys. As Mackenzie said, it "strains credulity" to believe that this had nothing to do with Cammy's statements. That's what it was about. It was not a hockey deal at all. And I'm shocked that this STILL keeps coming up.

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Old
08-04-2013, 02:32 AM
  #45
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Bourque had been struggling with injuries before he even got here. He did show us that he can be effective when healthy, though, so I think we have a valuable player in him. The trade with cammy wasn't the best, but hey, PG did add size.

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08-04-2013, 03:28 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
When you are on your way to 15th in the East, you don't need cap space. Actually, it's a good time to take on bad deals (like Bourque's) AS LONG AS YOU GET 1st ROUNDERS OUT OF IT.

I'm not going to argue with you that water is wet, it is. Gomez was bought out... we knew we'd buy him out. We knew there would be contract amnesties as the collective bargaining was coming up...

There's no reason to argue on this.
Oh come on, wouldn't you think the teams in last place are the teams that really need cap space? Even still every team wants cap space. How could you honestly try and say differently. That's just absurd.

I won't argue on this fact either because I honestly can't remember if it was written in stone that there was going to be amnesty buyouts. I don't think it was guaranteed but either way.

Cammy was a 6 million a year player who wasn't even scoring 20 goals a season and when you're more or less a one dimensional player that's pretty awful. Cammy's remarks aside, he was pretty lousy outside the playoffs for us in that last year and 2/3rds.

Just because analysts say that we could've gotten more for him doesn't mean that it's necessarily true. We could've possibly gotten more but really how much honestly?

Getting a top 6 pick, Bourque and Holland for Cammy and Ramo and the 5th would've been amazing. To make that sound like that's the bare minimum of what a good deal would be is crazy. It would've been highway robbery.

Calgary's a garbage team and I'm sure Feaster, who's not THAT out to lunch, knew that they'd be possibly giving up a top 10 pick. Had PG pulled that off, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have Bergevin as our boss right now.


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Old
08-04-2013, 03:35 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by onemorecup View Post
no way we get a first , we were lucky to get what we could

Feaster is retarded but not stupid drunk

it was my headache for yours
and since Cammy is better they gave us a second which was like a first

this was the only sensible trade without getting back a truly stupid contract
Compare the stats between him and Cammy in the seasons leading up to that trade. Cammy was a sniper who wasn't even scoring 20 goals a year, not very fast, would not engage in battles for the puck. It's like we we're trying to trade Marty St.Louis or something.

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08-04-2013, 10:05 AM
  #48
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Can't really complain about any of those. Sucks that Geoffrion had to retire so young though. Would have taken Zykov over DLR but that's just me.
Seriously zykov has surely an intriguing skillset but the skating and attitude concerns (he seems like a player that would leave to go to russia the moment it doesnt go his way or pay is better on the other side) there is a clear concern with russians.. the exceptions are becoming a trend... no thanks.. we already had 2 super talented russians (Kastitsyn's) we can even add Grobavski with weird attitudes (Not that they are bad guys) and the result is what it is..they stay 2 happy years they they get traded or buyout or left alone... Zykov can became a player but the risk is too real.. DLR in the other hand is the opposite... everything about attitude is great... talent is a question mark but patience could turn out amazing for us... at this point we are thought the russian experiments.

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Old
08-04-2013, 03:58 PM
  #49
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We absolutely should've gotten a first out of this. We took back a player they were praying to get rid of. They were still trying to make the playoffs and were desperate to do so. Their owner is a total idiot and Cammy was pretty much the best thing out there. The analysts were saying Cammy would bring back a first BEFORE this deal went down.

Yes, if we take back Bourque (a guy with a longer deal) and help them with a last ditch effort to make the playoffs, we absolutely should've demanded a first. But Skeletor didn't care about this. Skeletor had been embarrassed and wanted Cammy out right away no matter what, so he did it right away.

This is old news guys. As Mackenzie said, it "strains credulity" to believe that this had nothing to do with Cammy's statements. That's what it was about. It was not a hockey deal at all. And I'm shocked that this STILL keeps coming up.
cmon , there is no f way Calgary who stinks is going to give you thier #1 in this trade for Cammie

there were no takers at this salary plus he was playing like S H I T

Calgary was his only destination , who knew him and needed some offense

what more do you want a big body 20 goal in Bourque , a decent mid level prospect who really came on at 20 , and a second a few picks short of a late first for Cammie

thats as good as it gets folks

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08-04-2013, 04:01 PM
  #50
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Seriously zykov has surely an intriguing skillset but the skating and attitude concerns (he seems like a player that would leave to go to russia the moment it doesnt go his way or pay is better on the other side) there is a clear concern with russians.. the exceptions are becoming a trend... no thanks.. we already had 2 super talented russians (Kastitsyn's) we can even add Grobavski with weird attitudes (Not that they are bad guys) and the result is what it is..they stay 2 happy years they they get traded or buyout or left alone... Zykov can became a player but the risk is too real.. DLR in the other hand is the opposite... everything about attitude is great... talent is a question mark but patience could turn out amazing for us... at this point we are thought the russian experiments.
exactly no way we were going to risk a solid pick for Zykov

JDL looks like a solid pick , you need those all round players to win , he has size , wheels and plays a 2 way game , what more do you want

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