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Theodore and Koivu

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Old
06-23-2005, 12:48 PM
  #26
Habsfan 32
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I think I woudl give Theodore a maximum salary of 4M and Koivu 3M. But I just can't see Bob Gainey letting one of them slip away. He knows how important they are to the team and the city.

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06-23-2005, 01:18 PM
  #27
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UFA value rarely has anything to do with actual value. Koivu and Theodore, if they are UFAs, which I doubt will happen, will get whatever somebody is willing to pay them. As I noted in another thread, Minnesota has a lot of cap room, they make tones in profits, and they have a lot of Montreal connections. They could give Theodore and Koivu a combined $10 million a year, still be under the luxury tax limit, never mind the salary cap limit, and still be making $10 million or more in profits. Where does Saku’s brother play again?

For that matter, the Toronto Maple Leafs can cut close to $30 million in salary simply by letting their UFA’s walk. And we’re not talking key UFA’s here, we’re talking over-the-hill guys, like Mogilny, Reichel, Nieuwendyke, Roberts, Marchment, Klee and Kidd. After a rollback, that would put their salary at around $28 million. Wouldn’t they just love to sign Theodore out from under us, especially if they buy out Belfour (which would clear out still more room under the cap).

As for the “but they really love it here, they really do” argument, need I remind everyone of Shayne Corson, Stephane Quintal, Mark Recchi, Pierre Turgeon, Donald Audette, Martin Lapointe, etc. etc.? They all went to where the money was, despite their “love of Montreal.”

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06-23-2005, 01:18 PM
  #28
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First, the place where Koivu has the more value is in Montreal and he will NEVER receive a higher salary in an other town than Montreal. He's our captain , our hero who came back from cancer ... no chance to receive a better contract elsewhere in the NHL

For Theodore, everyone need a good goaltender and almost 15 team right now need a G like Theodore but I'll be surprised if he left the Habs (and would hurt a lot). I think Gainey will have to pay him a 4,5M to keep him, and it will be a short contract (2 years).

I think these two players will stay here, because they both like Montreal and Montreal like them!

Oh Yeah, for Johnny: Koivu will NEVER quit Montreal ... no chance at all ... Mikko could play where he want ... no chance .... and don't compare Saku Koivu to Donald Audette or Shayne Corson please ... Please ... Koivu is the most love player since Guy Lafleur in this town .... Koivu will stay here no matter what argument you will try to show ...

P.S. No chance

P.S2: I don't think Toronto will buy Belfour contract out ... but I think next year will be the last year for Belfour (And he's not finish at all) He still have lot of juice. And at the end of next year, Belfour will be the second highest victory netminder, with more than 435W and with a good playoff run, he will finish 2nd for the most playoff W. (I am not biased even if my nickname is EagleBelfour! )

P.S3: No chance for Koivu to get out Montreal


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 06-23-2005 at 01:27 PM.
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06-23-2005, 01:48 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour
First, the place where Koivu has the more value is in Montreal and he will NEVER receive a higher salary in an other town than Montreal. He's our captain , our hero who came back from cancer ... no chance to receive a better contract elsewhere in the NHL

I think these two players will stay here, because they both like Montreal and Montreal like them!

Oh Yeah, for Johnny: Koivu will NEVER quit Montreal ... no chance at all ... Mikko could play where he want ... no chance .... and don't


P.S3: No chance for Koivu to get out Montreal
well , i am with you when you say that Koivu is not going to receive better offer from other team .

But please , let away the '' Koivu will NEVER quit Montreal ''...it is like a child saying that his father will never have a love affair with another woman than his mother..it is not possible for us to know that ;we never know..and NO , Koivu isn't more a HERO because he came back from a cancer...there are thousans of peoples who fight the cancer every years without half of the facilities that Koivu had 2 years ago


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06-23-2005, 01:57 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
You have to weigh his past injuries against his contributions and his importance to the club. In that light, a longer term deal doesn't seem that imprudent. Although his past deals have been short term so I wouldn't be surprised if he signs another one year deal.
it is always difficult for a team to deal with an older player at the end of his career , because a lot of the players wants to prove themselves that they still able to do it ...They still want quality and quantity ice times and because of that , they are not always team players.We have a lot of good young players that are comming; may be it's gonna give less responsability to Koivu ,and help him to have 2-3 more good season , but it's sure that we are going to need a better and younger first center if we want to go farther...

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06-23-2005, 02:10 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
i would give 3.25 M $ FOR 4 Yrs...see my post..

and Blind Gardien..i'm so happy your not our gm if ur willing to give Koivu a 4.5 M $ per year deal
I have no idea what the new salary scales will be in the NHL, and neither does anybody else on these boards. That's just a ballpark figure. If Bonk and Souray and Rivet and Zednik are players worth $2-3M, then Theodore and Koivu are worth $5M.

But of course, if the market crashes, then those other players aren't worth anything like that $2-3M either. What will be the highest contract in the new NHL? $7M? $8M? Jagr, Sakic, Lidstrom, Pronger types? I don't know. What will be the real cap limits and taxes? I don't know. Theodore probably isn't going to take a paycut beyond his 24% rollback, if they come in with 100% qualifying offers for RFAs and don't reduce the UFA age this summer. So if Theodore is an RFA qualified at 76% of last year's salary, that's what, $4.5M? Koivu is worth whatever Theodore is worth, IMHO. Hence the projection. Bottom line, I don't see any of these $2-3M estimates being applied to Koivu. That's the kind of offer I'd make sure not to make to him, because it would be rather insulting. If I was going to err with Koivu, I'd err on the side of generosity. So there's some justification for $4.5M-5M.

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06-23-2005, 06:01 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
I have no idea what the new salary scales will be in the NHL, and neither does anybody else on these boards. That's just a ballpark figure. If Bonk and Souray and Rivet and Zednik are players worth $2-3M, then Theodore and Koivu are worth $5M.

But of course, if the market crashes, then those other players aren't worth anything like that $2-3M either. What will be the highest contract in the new NHL? $7M? $8M? Jagr, Sakic, Lidstrom, Pronger types? I don't know. What will be the real cap limits and taxes? I don't know. Theodore probably isn't going to take a paycut beyond his 24% rollback, if they come in with 100% qualifying offers for RFAs and don't reduce the UFA age this summer. So if Theodore is an RFA qualified at 76% of last year's salary, that's what, $4.5M? Koivu is worth whatever Theodore is worth, IMHO. Hence the projection. Bottom line, I don't see any of these $2-3M estimates being applied to Koivu. That's the kind of offer I'd make sure not to make to him, because it would be rather insulting. If I was going to err with Koivu, I'd err on the side of generosity. So there's some justification for $4.5M-5M.
Good point Blind Gardian , but if the top salary is more around $6 M, as i think it could be,Than the 2-3 M would be the value of Koivu.If you look to the contracts of players like Jagr or Yashin ,i am sure that all the managers are going to think twice before giving a $7-$8 M to a player.As you said everything is going to depend of the higgher salaries...


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06-23-2005, 06:11 PM
  #33
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By the way , am i alone to think that Theodore know that since 2 years , he's overpay, so i would not be surprise if he takes a big cut in the next contract , just to have less pressure and to stay in Montreal.With the talent of few prospects that are comming , i am sure that Théo is going to understand that his team is going to be a way better that what he had in the past and that the time of the 40-45 shoots per games are now far...

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06-23-2005, 06:17 PM
  #34
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If your #1 goalie isn't good enough to be making what other top-10 #1 goalies are when his contract gets renewed, then maybe you need to think about getting a new goalie? Basically, Brodeur and Belfour make gazillions... Theodore seems to generally be recognized as belonging in the group just behind them. Giguere makes how much? Theodore might have been a tad overpaid for what he gave us last year, but an MVP goalie in the top-10 of the NHL can certainly be the highest paid player on his team, and I'm thinking that if the top paid player in the entire league is $6-7M, then $5M is not an unreasonable number to kick around for Theodore.

One year contracts might be a good idea, though, until we get our bearings in the new world order. (Except for Koivu's lifetime contract, that is. )

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06-23-2005, 06:27 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
(Except for Koivu's lifetime contract, that is. )
you are not serious !!! how can you wish to a gentle guy as Koivu all the injuries he will have season after season for liftime...poor Koivu !

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06-23-2005, 07:38 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
If your #1 goalie isn't good enough to be making what other top-10 #1 goalies are when his contract gets renewed, then maybe you need to think about getting a new goalie? Basically, Brodeur and Belfour make gazillions... Theodore seems to generally be recognized as belonging in the group just behind them. Giguere makes how much? Theodore might have been a tad overpaid for what he gave us last year, but an MVP goalie in the top-10 of the NHL can certainly be the highest paid player on his team, and I'm thinking that if the top paid player in the entire league is $6-7M, then $5M is not an unreasonable number to kick around for Theodore.

One year contracts might be a good idea, though, until we get our bearings in the new world order. (Except for Koivu's lifetime contract, that is. )
So you're basicly saying that since every one else is overpaying their goalies that we should do the same!!! That's just stupid....and especialy when there's a cap.

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06-23-2005, 09:19 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0v
For Koivu , it is more difficult to say,because we don't know exactly how his his desire to play for the Canadians , and it is more difficult to evaluated the money his talent command, because he's so injury prone.
i have a friend who was recently in montreal, and she happened to meet both Koivu and Rivet in a local bar. She asked em about the current labour situation, and Koivu said that it was good for him to get a rest and that he couldnt wait to get back and play for montreal. his heart is in montreal without a doubt, and it seems to me that he would take a lower paycheque from the habs to stay here than a bit more somewhere else.

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06-23-2005, 09:23 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by x-bob
So you're basicly saying that since every one else is overpaying their goalies that we should do the same!!! That's just stupid....and especialy when there's a cap.
If everyone else is "overpaying", is it still overpaying? If everybody is doing it? No, it's the going rate. If we take your approach, maybe Huet will be our starter next year. How's that sounding?

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06-23-2005, 09:47 PM
  #39
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Consider the cap before making predictions...

34-36 million cap
tax starts at 29 million
22 million basement

Essentially to max out at 36million, we actually carry a burden of 43million (36million cap + dollar-for-dollar luxury tax)... that number looks a lot like our previous salary burden (2004) which helped M. Gillet lose money a year ago. My guess is that teams will shoot for the 29million or just over to keep as much revenue as possible to themselves.

At that point, can you really afford to tie up 8-10million for Koivu and Theo? No. It's nearly 33% of your total cap to sign 2 players, at that rate the average salary for the rest of the team will be near 1million/player for a 22man roster. If Koivu and Theo are worth 10million together per year, we won't be able to sign any of the stars that will be available.

They likely will stay in montreal for around 3-3.5million/year for each. I think that Gainey will be classy and sign each for 3 years.

I also think that Glen Sather will do something really dumb like start giving out HUGE bonuses to screw it all up for the rest of the teams... again. But hey, he drafted Gretzky, so I guess I can forgive him for ruining the game from his desk in NY.

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06-23-2005, 10:23 PM
  #40
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do it the patriot way !!!
Give short contract for low money ..
then if they perform raise their money !
or Restructure key player each year to improve the team !

or do it the Eagles way .. lots of front loaded contract !
anyway it will be great to watch player come in montreal because for once we have the same monetary power as Toronto,Detroit,New-York!!!

I think that lecavalier could be the 1st big name to sign in montreal when he hit free agency ! just a little guess ..

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06-23-2005, 11:55 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kryoptix

or do it the Eagles way .. lots of front loaded contract !
anyway it will be great to watch player come in montreal because for once we have the same monetary power as Toronto,Detroit,New-York!!!
If we can fit front loaded contracts under the cap as it is now I say go for it, especially if we can do it with players who will be RFA at the end of their contract (lower qualifying offers). Whether or not individual players want front-loaded contracts is the big question though.

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06-24-2005, 06:49 AM
  #42
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The one thing a lot of you are forgetting is qualifying offers. Assuming that Theo and Saku are not UFA's, and I don't think they will be, Gainey needs to qualify them. If you believe the rumours out there, QO's will be at 100%, after a rollback. Therefore how does anyone expect to sign Theodore for less than $4.56 million when he will have to get a QO of $4.56 million just to hold onto his rights? Why would Theo turn down $4.56 million to sign for $3 million? Doesn't make sense.

The QO for Saku (if he's not UFA) will be $3.42 million.

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06-24-2005, 11:10 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien
If everyone else is "overpaying", is it still overpaying? If everybody is doing it? No, it's the going rate. If we take your approach, maybe Huet will be our starter next year. How's that sounding?
So it's like if you're saying that since so many people pay their 3rd line players 2 million bucks for a checking line that we should do the same. It's still overpaying if everyone does it you know.

BTW...I don't get what you mean when you're talking about Huet?

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06-24-2005, 12:07 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-bob
So it's like if you're saying that since so many people pay their 3rd line players 2 million bucks for a checking line that we should do the same. It's still overpaying if everyone does it you know.
In that case, all hockey players are overpayed, reductio ad absurdum, and we should probably offer Theo about $22,000 'cuz he'd be flipping burgers at Poulin's place if he wasn't in the NHL.
Quote:
BTW...I don't get what you mean when you're talking about Huet?
If you offer Theo $3M, then Huet becomes our #1 goaltender.

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06-24-2005, 12:16 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark0v
it is always difficult for a team to deal with an older player at the end of his career , because a lot of the players wants to prove themselves that they still able to do it ...They still want quality and quantity ice times and because of that , they are not always team players.We have a lot of good young players that are comming; may be it's gonna give less responsability to Koivu ,and help him to have 2-3 more good season , but it's sure that we are going to need a better and younger first center if we want to go farther...
I think you're a little premature in your assumption that Koivu is at the end of his career. I see no reason why Saku cannot continue to play at his current level for the next 3-4 years.

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06-24-2005, 12:58 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barfy2000
i have a friend who was recently in montreal, and she happened to meet both Koivu and Rivet in a local bar. She asked em about the current labour situation, and Koivu said that it was good for him to get a rest and that he couldnt wait to get back and play for montreal. his heart is in montreal without a doubt, and it seems to me that he would take a lower paycheque from the habs to stay here than a bit more somewhere else.
...and how many players have said that kind of things and have signed with other team?

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06-24-2005, 01:03 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
#2-When Kovalev's contract ends(assuming it's 2 yrs) ...Kostitsyn,Chipchura and others will be ready to step in.
There's no way in two years Chipchura is ready to step into the lineup of an NHL team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Komisarek8
That would give Koivu an avg of 3.25 M $ per year for 4 yrs.
Front loading or backloading a contract will not help for the cap. The Cap will average out all salaries to a per-year basis.

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06-24-2005, 01:05 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4
I think you're a little premature in your assumption that Koivu is at the end of his career. I see no reason why Saku cannot continue to play at his current level for the next 3-4 years.
i said 2-3 '' MORE '' good seasons , not 2-3 good seasons

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06-24-2005, 01:09 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gc2005
The one thing a lot of you are forgetting is qualifying offers. Assuming that Theo and Saku are not UFA's, and I don't think they will be, Gainey needs to qualify them. If you believe the rumours out there, QO's will be at 100%, after a rollback. Therefore how does anyone expect to sign Theodore for less than $4.56 million when he will have to get a QO of $4.56 million just to hold onto his rights? Why would Theo turn down $4.56 million to sign for $3 million? Doesn't make sense.

The QO for Saku (if he's not UFA) will be $3.42 million.
this was a part of the old convention ,and is a part of the present negociations

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06-24-2005, 01:38 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox
There's no way in two years Chipchura is ready to step into the lineup of an NHL team.



Front loading or backloading a contract will not help for the cap. The Cap will average out all salaries to a per-year basis.

heh? why would they do that? there's no point...

your just assuming. It's done in a lot of sports and i would be VERY surprised if they don't allow it in the NHL. As long as you assume the $$ you have to pay for that player later on, everything is fine.


and why isn't Chipchura ready in 3 YRS time...Kovalev would play 2 yrs...the third year..would be chipchura's spot in the lineup. I don't see how he can't be ready or "no way"

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